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average journey distance is a lot smaller for most vehicles
Of course they are but if you only have one car it needs to be capable of the long drive to France on holiday, or to Uncle Bobs the other side of the country etc. Very few people are going to be happy parting with their old petrol that could, for a new car that can't. People expect to see progress.
Of course they are but if you only have one car it needs to be capable of the long drive to France
no it doesn't, that's part of the problem.
people buying cars for the 1% of use cases not the 99%
but that's a whole other discussion on behaviour and infrastructure change right there.
If you only have 1 car* and regularly need to make long journeys then you fall into the 'and that's ok' camp and you can keep it, I'm not talking about edge cases, we're talking about the big majority.
Have a proper think about how many people you know and see who already have more than one car, often a small runabout for city and town use, and a bigger one for weekend or infrequent trips, it's quite common.
Why not push to replace the town runabouts with EVs/hybrids? **
Why not consider NOT lugging around the extra weight and inefficiency of a big depreciating asset for 50 weeks of the year and hire a big car for the holiday?
It's not about how wrong we currently do it, but about how right we could do it, and if the only argument against it is because it might be a bit awkward to change your ways, then that's not really a good argument long term for a society, we're too fixated on the cost and potential inconvenience to get behind the benefits, and personally I find that a bit sad.
Lets face it, at the moment it's all about money, if it either became massively cheaper to go electric or massively more expensive to not via emission legislation, then people would be jumping over in their droves despite the range non-issue.
* we do and I pretty much refuse to use it for any journey under 10 miles, if I needed one purely for short trips I would absolutely want to do it with an EV if possible rather than use our big estate, sadly it is the cost that would put me off at the moment, but that's a matter of scale to overcome and possibly with future legislation or restriction on emissions in towns and cities forcing the issue.
** this one would be a massive gain, even if we could get 30-50% of the town runabouts to stop punting out fumes into our towns and cities it would be a massive improvement, and would have zero impact on peoples ability to still drive to the south of france once in a while in the big car or a hired wagon (which would naturally become cheaper if hiring became a more widespread and frequent activity)
Of course they are but if you only have one car it needs to be capable of the long drive to France on holiday, or to Uncle Bobs the other side of the country etc. Very few people are going to be happy parting with their old petrol that could, for a new car that can't.
for some people, perhaps. I rarely do more than 250 miles in a single day- less than yearly. And I wouldn't waste my time driving to France when i could hop on a plane and be on the beach while the Mondeo would be still on the M25.
I'd happily rent something one weekend a year and have a little electro-jobby if the economics made sense. That's no bother at all.
But the economic case would have to be very strong to compete with a 13 year old diesel!
Eh, really? I was under the impression that it takes less refining and less crude is required/ltr.
This was in the news and on here a year or two ago. Enormously and tragically over-simplified, if you get 100l of crude out of the ground, it contains I dunno, 20l of petrol, 10l of diesel and a load of other stuff ranging from gas to heavy oils. So that diesel might be easier to extract. But that gives us a fixed amount of diesel. The problem is that demand has outstripped that fixed supply, so you have to 'crack' some of the heavier oils to make more diesel, and this is very energy intensive. I think they heat the reaction by burning some of the stuff they don't need.
Re electric cars, I think most people would be entirely happy to buy one as a town runabout - the problem is that a town runabout needs to cost £10k or even £2-3k used. Unless electric cars can be that cheap, people won't do it.
And you need a garage to keep/charge them in.
We don't have a garage, but we are leccy-car curious. We *could* have a charging point installed outside, on the road, and a protected / dedicated parking space. But it would be a guaranteed chav/dickhead/moron magnet. The local scallies have no end of fun with bins, skips, telephone cables, etc. etc. I can only imagine what they'd do to/with a plugged-in electric car.
Why not push to replace the town runabouts with EVs/hybrids?
Cost of the car, cost of infrastructure - as you said.
Just thinking of the most typical person I know who drives around town locally - she lives in a rented house, so couldn't install a charging point (although she could run a cable form the hosue as she has a drive) but about twice a year they drive to Sunderland cos that's where he's from. They can only afford one car.
I would have a leccy car in a shot if I had that much money lying around.
Hire car for the trips to Sunderland?
But
+although she could run a cable form the hosue as she has a drive
But it would be a guaranteed chav/dickhead/moron magnet. The local scallies have no end of fun with bins, skips, telephone cables, etc. etc. I can only imagine what they'd do to/with a plugged-in electric car
^ these have to be an issue though for the majority of people - even a driveway isn't really a safe place to plug your car in.
I would have a leccy car in a shot if I had that much money lying around.
Me too (I think), certainly to replace our second car [Golf] which does lots of trips < 15 miles.
Cost of the car, cost of infrastructure - as you said.
Unless electric cars can be that cheap, people won't do it.
I would have a leccy car in a shot if I had that much money lying around.
But the economic case would have to be very strong to compete with a 13 year old diesel!
^ all backs up my point about it being about money at the moment.
my question about "why not $DO_POSITIVE_CHANGE_X" was kinda to highlight that point, if you take the money out of the equation we have numerous positive reasons to make these changes, and only one (or a few at least) not to, money.
So if we could all agree that we have enough other reasons to want to do it then the focus becomes making it cheaper and do-able, but step 1 has to be making people realise that the benefits are worth it. Rather than focussing on the obstacles focus on how to overcome the obstacles.
Things that everyone wants but are expensive, often have a way of becoming cheaper if the effort and will to make them so is there...
Just thinking of the most typical person I know who drives around town locally - she lives in a rented house, so couldn't install a charging point (although she could run a cable form the hosue as she has a drive) but about twice a year they drive to Sunderland cos that's where he's from. They can only afford one car.
I wonder if, especially if we move to auto-drive, things won't transition more to a lease and service model?
Your example person above can only afford one car, fair enough, but what if that money was leasing a 'vehicle' instead of a specific vehicle? Small city runabout during the week/normal months, and then swap it for something bigger provided by the same company when they need longer trips.
It would need a big change in the way we approach car ownership/leasing, and probably a big risk and investment from someone willing to set it up , but long term it would be a much better format, and could potentially be a cheaper, safer and more efficient way to run personal transport.
We've already got a lot of people leasing cars, it just needs more flexibility to work.
Agreed a town run around needs to be £10k or less, as that's the price of a new VW UP or 1 year old Polo.
Compare a BMW i3 new is over £30k before the grant. And in the Autoexpress review it need to be filled with petrol 4 times to get it to do 170 miles, using the range extender. You'll only get 80-125 miles on electric.
The Renault Zoe is £18k before grant (plus £1k a year battery lease cost) and has a slightly lower range, down to 60 miles in cold weather.
So if we could all agree that we have enough other reasons to want to do it then the focus becomes making it cheaper and do-able, but step 1 has to be making people realise that the benefits are worth it. Rather than focussing on the obstacles focus on how to overcome the obstacles.Things that everyone wants but are expensive, often have a way of becoming cheaper if the effort and will to make them so is there...
indeed. was just thinking that the problems of the on-street parking brigade (i.e. me) are probably fairly moot at the moment anyway. With any stuff like this it's the early adopters you need to look at. People who can afford a new car are also people who usually have drives and/or garages. They don't park their car two streets away!
i can't wait for driverless cars. it's gonna be ace.
The problem then is not the limited mileage but some of the other uses a car fulfils like social status and individual reward. These are problems for the market makers to overcome and as is how everyone gets a slice of the pie.
indeed. was just thinking that the problems of the on-street parking brigade (i.e. me) are probably fairly moot at the moment anyway. With any stuff like this it's the early adopters you need to look at. People who can afford a new car are also people who usually have drives and/or garages. They don't park their car two streets away!
absolutely, even if the problems for people without charge points were impossible to overcome, it doesn't mean we can't make big benefits with the people who can use them.
[i] amedias - Member
Things that everyone wants but are expensive, often have a way of becoming cheaper if the effort and will to make them so is there...[/i]
No doubt. My issue is solely focusing on electricity as the power source. When this issue is discussed I get the suspicion most don't appear to really consider the enormity or rolling out a national charge point network, domestic and commercial. The quantities of raw materials required, etc. In addition to breaking down and scrapping what we have in place, rather than adapting it for new liquid fuels.
[i] doris5000 - Member
i can't wait for driverless cars. it's gonna be ace.[/i]
I can, regardless of how they're powered, I'd never want one.
As I said I'll believe it when I see it, as I've heard some crazy claims over new materials and batteries over the last 20 odd so years and yet most of the improvements are incremental.
i can't wait for driverless cars. it's gonna be ace.
I can, regardless of how they're powered, I'd never want one.
imagine how much space we could recover when we can get rid of (say) half of every car park because the all driverless cars just head off to the next job. that's an extra football pitch outside every tower block and a decent real park outside each retail park 😀
I remember showing this fella window 2.0 and its shortcuts and moveable windows and him laughing sagely, "very clever, but it'll never be mainsteam".
[i] doris5000 - Member
imagine how much space we could recover when we can get rid of (say) half of every car park because the all driverless cars just head off to the next job. that's an extra football pitch outside every tower block and a decent real park outside each retail park[/i]
I don't agree, any space liberated as described will just be built upon, to crowd the growing population on top of one another, to prevent entering any green belt areas. New building in the UK is already ridiculously cramped and over priced, imo. But that's another thread.
However, your description of a driverless car reads to me as a taxi, a vehicle you hire for a specific journey as opposed to owning a car you are not required to pilot yourself, other than to program your destination, into the car and initiate the journey.
A fleet of driverless taxis would be a mare, would you want the taxi which had been previously used by someone who had been unwell in the car or in some other way had soiled the vehicle? Obviously those who ran the fleet of driverless taxis would, probably rely on people refusing such a car, to indicate when the car needed to be cleaned. However, waiting for the replacement may make you late for wherever you're going.
Just as an example.
A fleet of driverless taxis would be a mare, would you want the taxi which had been previously used by someone who had been unwell in the car or in some other way had soiled the vehicle? Obviously those who ran the fleet of driverless taxis would, probably rely on people refusing such a car, to indicate when the car needed to be cleaned. However, waiting for the replacement may make you late for wherever you're going.
Doesn't this apply equally to taxis we have now?
This is a good example of seizing on perceived compromises or disadvantages of new things while ignoring/accepting/rationalising the compromises and disadvantages with what we have now.
[i] MrSalmon - Member
Doesn't this apply equally to taxis we have now?[/i]
[threaddrift]
Not in my experience. I've never had a taxi arrive with the added feature of a puddle of vomit on the floor. Furthermore, experience leads me to believe the driver would deal with such an issue before accepting any new business. However, I couldn't comment on standards of taxi service throughout the UK.
[/threaddrift]
Flow batteries, maybe.. you just empty a tank of reacted solution and fill two more tanks of reagents, off you go.
not that simple though is it, most flow battery technology is based on Vanadium, which again is non-renewable rare earth element which causes the same old issues.
for an idea of how damaging rare earth extraction is have a look at the reports into Bautou which produces about 80% of the rare earth elements used in battery technology and electrical goods.
if you own an electric car or hybrid thinking you doing your bit for the planet, you a deluded but well meaning buffoon
However, your description of a driverless car reads to me as a taxi, a vehicle you hire for a specific journey as opposed to owning a car you are not required to pilot yourself, other than to program your destination, into the car and initiate the journey.
Sounds about right. I'm mainly interested in getting from A to B, I'm not bothered about where the car is when i'm not using it.
A fleet of driverless taxis would be a mare, would you want the taxi which had been previously used by someone who had been unwell in the car or in some other way had soiled the vehicle? Obviously those who ran the fleet of driverless taxis would, probably rely on people refusing such a car, to indicate when the car needed to be cleaned. However, waiting for the replacement may make you late for wherever you're going.
i don't think that would be a huge issue - as you say, you refuse the cab, it goes back to base for a clean and the previous user gets charged £50. We have similar dispute systems with things like eBay and whatnot. But I'm not sure people really vomit in taxis all that often, except teenagers on weekend nights.
Maybe in the future they'll also have automatic 'vomit sensors' that can smell puke and act accordingly 😉
[i] tazzymtb - Member
most flow battery technology is based on Vanadium, which again is non-renewable rare earth element which causes the same old issues.
for an idea of how damaging rare earth extraction is have a look at the reports into Bautou which produces about 80% of the rare earth elements used in battery technology and electrical goods.
if you own an electric car or hybrid thinking you doing your bit for the planet, you a deluded but well meaning[/i]
Interesting, I had always been very sceptical about the final result for exotic materials contained within spent batteries, but hadn't given much thought to the environmental impact of sourcing those materials in the first place.
Pieces of information such as this only go to further reinforce my opinion as it currently stands, that EVs are not the solution and not worth considering even as a "stepping stone" to a different tech in the future. I just see it as a flawed concept for reasons such as this one, along with many others.
Yes, fueling cars as the majority of us currently do, needs to change, I agree. It's just that I don't think EVs are the answer.
just to clarify, not having a poke* at anyone with a hybrid etc.. There is very good greenwash in the marketing
*well maybe a little one at the holier than thou pseudo eco smartypants that think they are saving the world, not that there are any on STW
Pieces of information such as this only go to further reinforce my opinion as it currently stands, that EVs are not the solution
I think an important distinction that needs to be made is that the energy generation and storage technology currently leaves a lot to be desired in both capability and environmental impact, but I think vehicles [i]propelled using electric motors[/i] probably are the solution, and it's important to understand that EV doesn't necessarily have to mean the current battery tech in future.
The trick is to find a clean, renewable way to generate that energy and to store/transport it if local generation not viable (and mass generation is pretty much always more efficient than local) as ICE is never going to be able to reach the same efficiency in terms of local combustion/propulsion systems, and also in terms of refining and producing the raw fuel, and dealing with the waste output.
Haven't read the article but an electric vehicle is on my wish list, we have solar and battery power for the house so the vehicle is the next move.
It's a shame the damn oil distribution industry don't spot the obvious solution to the range issue. If all the cars had interchangeable batteries that when you ran out you just drive into the gas station and swap it for a fully charged one. With racks of them on solar/windpower trickle charge ready to swap.
Or, given the auto industry not getting their act together then the racks might contain instant boost packs that just plug straight into the vehicle. Range fear is the biggest hold up to take up of electric vehicles, solve that and nobody in their right mind would really want to use fossil fuels.
I looked very seriously into buying an Ampera as my next car. It is a very comfortable extended range electic, with a small engine powering the electric and KERS giving a bit back. It's also relatively cheap compared tot he Tesla at about 25k.
It was a hoot to drive, amazing acceleration and a really comfy, quiet cabin. Even when the elctric motor was going, it was quiet. The only thing that put me off was the lack of an estate version, or even a hatchback. It was saloon only. If they fixed either of those two problems, I would think seriously about buying one again.
The standard battery pack is in progress, and has been for probably 15 years.
Too many people, too many conflicting design requirements not enough direction from those incharge
This was pretty much my original point. Like you, I still don't see any realistic way in which a solution could be implemented in Britain.No doubt. My issue is solely focusing on electricity as the power source. When this issue is discussed I get the suspicion most don't appear to really consider the enormity or rolling out a national charge point network, domestic and commercial.
What about, for example, when you take a bike somewhere to ride. I certainly like my car to be where I left it with all my clothes and gear inside while I'm away!!Sounds about right. I'm mainly interested in getting from A to B, I'm not bothered about where the car is when i'm not using it.
What about, for example, when you take a bike somewhere to ride. I certainly like my car to be where I left it with all my clothes and gear inside while I'm away!!
fair point, there are always exceptions. But stuff like that - camping for instance - is a 3 or 4 times a year job for [i]most[/i] people. So it would be strange to build a new transport infrastructure around the exceptions to the rule, rather than around e.g. the commute or the school run which many people do 200 times a year, or even the Tesco run, 50 times a year...
Taxi vs car-you-own.
Taxi? No, not a chance, ever. If I can afford to keep travelling around then I will keep a car. I have family to transport, visit, emergencies to do emergency things with, stuff I like to take around and use, a taxi model of transport is not happening. I can't imagine I'm particularly unusual here.
Charging:
The vast majority of city dwellers are absolutely, categorically, unequivocally boned.
Covering things with solar panels, yes, very funny. Suggest trying this with something as energy unhungry as an ebike first.
Battery swapping at petrol stations, also unlikely. Batteries are large, heavy, awkward things that are difficult to move, and require a lot of storage safety things to happen, so all those petrol stations aren't any use without being entirely rebuilt.
Range anxiety:
But stuff like that - camping for instance - is a 3 or 4 times a year job for most people
I dunno. I doubt I'm particularly unusual here:
Trip to inlaws, once a month, sometimes more, especially if the boys are visiting grandma & grandad for the day. 100 mile round trip.
Trip to parents, four or five times a year, 260 mile round trip.
Trip to brothers, several times a year. 150 mile round trip.
Visit friends scattered across the lands, several times a year, 400 mile round trip.
Holiday, twice a year, could be South of France or Scotland.
Basically, every two or three weeks I need upwards of 100 mile range.
Electric range doesn't cut it, and never will - in the foreseeable future.
However
IF I am a house-with-garage-owning sort, with enough cash to run two cars, I'd have an electric like a shot. Electric makes a perfect argument for a second motor which can't go that far and isn't always available and costs a big wodge of cash more than a cheap old diesel or small town petrol.
But stuff like that - camping for instance - is a 3 or 4 times a year job for most peopleI dunno. I doubt I'm particularly unusual here:
i meant 'camping' as an example of 'times you'd want the car to stick around instead of departing for its next job'.
i too visit the inlaws (etc) a lot, but generally i park up round the corner from their house on friday night, and come back to the car on sunday, having done nowt with it in the meantime. Range is a different issue, I'd say.
i can't wait for driverless cars. it's gonna be ace.
I can, regardless of how they're powered, I'd never want one.
You might not want one, but they're going to be so much safer than human drivers that the insurance cost of manual driving will probably make it unaffordable for anyone expect the super rich.
I would think of pooled driverless cars as "drive on demand" rather than a taxi service. You would simply schedule your regular car use in advance, so the car would always be waiting outside the house at 8am. You could pay a bit more if you wanted a car to yourself, rather than pooling your ride with other people on your route. If you needed a car for a spontaneous trip, you might have to wait a few minutes for one to arrive after you book it, but for most of us that wouldn't be a problem. And if you really wanted to, there would be nothing stopping you from buying your own driverless vehicle (the new status symbol might be keeping your own driverless car parked on the drive, instead of booking on demand!). I think driverless would just give us more options about how we use cars and how much we want to pay for the privilege.