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Cha****ng - thanks, although that seems to be at Hmrc investigating stage rather than a court decision? Perhaps it's just luck. Cynically there's a lot of potential new union members to sign up in the taxi trade!
Court case was funded by the GMB IIRC.
Yep
The case was brought by the GMB trade union following claims that Uber had disregarded its drivers' basic employment rights.
Taxi25, thank you for the insight of your trade. In regards to the Uber drivers who brought this action via the union do you think it is down to over subscription with so many drivers fighting over too fewer jobs? Like others have said there you see so many parked up waiting for a fare and earning nothing in this time as self employed where as now if treated as employed they have an hourly rate for clogging up the streets. With more and more drivers jumping on as Uber drivers as full time employment and a way of getting additional income this situation is bound to get worse.
I don't know Craig. In Cardiff the overall number of drivers have remained the same with Uber operating here, maybe its different in London. But there's always people with a grevience, some people in the trade locally think the drivers who brought the case are union stooges ( employed driver's would mean 1,000's of new members ).
Maybe its different here,
but when I was in the states (only time I've used Uber) all the drivers were doing it as a second job/top up.
Bored at home for an evening? Head out for 3-4 hours and earn a little extra. Day off when no one else was around etc.
I'm sure there probably were some who did it full time too, but from the 20 odd times I used it, everyone was someone with another job.
Definitely different in Cardiff simply. To drive for Uber you have to be a licensed driver in a licensed car, with all the associated costs. Vast majority of drivers are full time, it takes a good few hours to cover your fixed overheads and get into profit.
So you have to essentially be employed by Uber, but get no employment benefits like paid Holliday or a guaranteed income?
Ime guessing that's what people are taking issue with.
Not quite mattyfez. In Cardiff you present yourself to uber as a licensed driver with a licensed vehicle. You still have complete flexibility of working hours ect. Uber do offer incentives to get you to work peak or unsociable hours but they aren't compulsory.
There is freedom of movement between taxi companies, but you pick one, taxi companies don't won't you filling in jobs with uber. Thats their way of protecting their market share. I can't say it enough the vast majority of taxi drivers want to remain self employed.
London it's a nightmare, roads clogged with Prius doing 20mph waiting for a job. A black cab stops on a rank at a station for example or drives at at a speed to a place where they know there is work. A black cab is a specified expensive vehicle regularly inspected without notice. The driver has a taxi licence and has to pass a rigourous test. Also drivers don't set the fares they are set centrally at a rate which is a living wage. Uber is a race to the bottom in terms and condition and wages. Uber is abusing the minicab laws to run a taxi service
@taxi being self employed isn't the issue its about the level of the fare being set by a regulator or by a Californian company.
£10 an hour in an office job where they provide premises and equipment is different to £10 an hour where you provide the car, fuel, insurance etc
@oldman - remainers being here and Leavers stance are two seperate things, I wasn't implying they thought the opposite.
Well said taxi25
Good point.Personally I'm looking forward to having a small malnourished working class child (aka 'an urchin') clean my chimney using his bare nails.
My man uses his scrotum. Make no mistake!
Sorry jamba but your comments are only relevant to how uber operates in the London market. In the Cardiff market none of your assertions hold true. Uber exits as another option that licensed drivers can embrace or reject. Don't forget there is a whole world outside of London. One size very definitely doesn't fit in this matter.
Timely piece on HBR https://hbr.org/2016/10/who-wins-in-the-gig-economy-and-who-loses
Taxi so in Cardiff Uber is regulated like a taxi service with the council setting the fares and drivers using a proper meter ? I think not, they are operating as a taxi service under mini-cab legislation ?
@jamba. The council regulates the drivers and vehicles. But uber sets their own fares. All private hire firms ( mini cabs ) in cardiff are free to do the same although most operate using the Council set hackney rate.
That article doesn't use the term, but this kind of casual work is another example of the "hollowing out" of the workforce.
I think the piece oversells the benefits and dodges the macro issues like inadequate pension provision and to what extent governments are subsidising sharp practice by employers by allowing them to treat many workers so poorly that they are still eligible for benefits.
Taxi Uber is going to destroy the traditional taxi services and then replace its drivers with automatic vehicles.
One impact of this (and other such gig employment) is that we may be forced to change the way we assign welfare and health benefits to be more aligned to France and Germany. Unless you pay a minimum amount of national insurance you get virtually nothing. We cannot have a situation where decent jobs are replaced with those below minimum wage.
Uber surge pricing model means you have no idea what the fare home will be. Once the normal taxis are gone it's going to be carnage.
I would allow Uber to act as a licenced taxi service but fully regulated with centrally controlled fares. I would allow driverless cars but with a licence fee in excess of a full time drivers wages.
London it's a nightmare, roads clogged with Prius doing 20mph waiting for a job. A black cab stops on a rank at a station
I cycle to work in London daily and far prefer it to be full of Prius clogging the roads than stinking polluting black cabs. I worked in victoria for years and there is a large black cab rank there, they all sit there running their polluting engines until pick ups.
The whole point of the job is the flexibility
But they won't be fully employed. They will be 'workers', they will retain their flexibility and gain more rights.
One interesting point is that had we signed up to TTIP, Uber would be able to sue the UK for loss of revenue from this ruling, since TTIP (allegedly) puts company revenue about domestic law.....
Jamba,
You talk as though squeezing many of the taxi firms out is automatically a bad thing? Talk to many of the uber drivers who worked for them before and you'll find equally as bad morals, just from some local businesses rather than a big American one.
I'm not sure what you mean by decent jobs replaced by those below minimum wage. Do you think drivers in other all taxi firms were doing great before uber arrived? Does the ultimate driverless car expectation not make it irrelevant what a driver earns? I'm not sure I follow the leap from there to welfare needing to be directly linked to previous inputs? Is your assumption that once we have driverless cars, driverless delivery vehicles, drone deliveries, etc that all those people will be signing on? history would suggest that new economies emerge when technology replaces jobs.
Of course there is nothing unique about uber, others can (and have) copied the model. Lyft in the US are almost certainly waiting for uber to iron out the regulatory issues before expanding internationally, some of the bigger city firms (like the one in Cardiff) have copied the order by app, pay by app approach etc. So your doomsday scenario with an uber monopoly and the resulting price exploitation is unlikely to occur. Any such scenario just makes it easier for an emerging competitor to win.
Why should uber be regulated any differently to other taxi firms? at least with uber there is a brand reputation and some sophisticated technology to stop drivers exploiting passengers. In fact I wonder if the no-tip structure, and no cash payments means Hmrc get a much more accurate view of drivers income.