[Closed] Employment law question

No, you can't ask him to leave.

Don't be so daft. You can't sack someone because they said they might want to leave. This is all just part of employing people

Doubt you'd be within your rights to fire him for that, unless you could establish breakdown of trust etc (doubt that too). IANAE.

Surely he has a notice period so if he does hand in his notice you're in no worse a position than if he'd not warned you?

An employee has just told us that he is thinking about handing in his notice (due to the long drive/fuel costs he has).

AKA - I need a pay raise

My point being is that now we KNOW he MIGHT leave, we really need to look elsewhere (although point taken cynic-al). He does have a notice period, but now we know his thoughts we can't just ignore it.

A very odd position to be put in!

(And we are not wanting to sack him just for saying he might leave).

AKA - I need a pay raise

Not necessarily asking for a pay rise - any way you can offer flexible working etc? The odd day working from home, option to do flexi-time and accrue TOIL etc?

What would they cost to replace in terms of lost effort from people interviewing, costs of advertising/agencies, training/acclimatisation of replacement etc etc? And what would it cost to keep them?

edit: don't think you can sack someone for that. maybe he might with some sort of compensation.

would be nice to have someone waiting in the wings but then you don't know when they're leaving if a notice hasn't been handed in. with unemployment rising i'm sure you'll find a replacement.
usually it's 4weeks notice you give (well has been so far in all the places i worked) so you will have time to find someone and maybe get them to work light hours during that 4week period so they can be up to speed.

edit: sorry above sounds quite cold and calculated. if he's a valued member of the team then maybe you should think it over on how to keep them. However, most of my jobs have been in retail so i'm just a number to them hence my line of thought.

Not sure what agencies charge but isn't it just a fee + %age when they find someone (rather than there being a fee for them just providing 'suitable' CVs etc.)? If so then no real harm in getting an agency to start finding people. But no you can't actually replace the person.

So sit him down and talk to him. Get him to come back to you in a given period (say a week) with his further thoughts, at which time you discuss these and ask him to make a choice.

If he says that he remains convinced he wants to leave, ask him when he's thinking of, as you now need to start looking. Tell him that as he's made up his mind, you're taking this as notification of his intention to leave, which you'd appreciate him following up with a letter. If he's staying, brilliant. Either way, get him to choose a position.

It sounds very brutal, but I had an employee some years back who kept doing this. He was an essential member of staff, who constantly seemed to dither, and it was unsettling the team. So I forced him to choose....he left, but amicably and at a time to suit us both.

Empty him for internet abuse ??

Nothing you can do.

Forget about it until he actually does something.

If he says that he remains convinced he wants to leave, ask him when he's thinking of, as you now need to start looking. Tell him that as he's made up his mind, you're taking this as notification of his intention to leave, which you'd appreciate him following up with a letter. If he's staying, brilliant. Either way, get him to choose a position.

We have said to him we will discuss things and get back to him (working from home was discussed as an option in the meeting).

To be fair, I wouldn't want to be having the drive he makes every day - some 45 miles each way, 1.5 hours per journey. But he knew that when he took the job!

I think you'd be on very shaky ground if you forced him to make a choice. And there's nothing to stop him saying he's decided to stay and then handing in his notice a week later.

And there's nothing to stop him saying he's decided to stay and then handing in his notice a week later.

I just wish he hadn't placed us in this position - nothing we can do but something we can't ignore.

I'd have thought that forcing someone to make a decision like that could be viewed dimly in any tribunials if it came to that.

Question, how good is he to you?

If hes good, you might actually be shooting yourself in the foot if you let him go without offering any sort of help.

The competition isn't always better- the door doth swing both ways.

Question, how good is he to you?

If hes good, you might actually be shooting yourself in the foot if you let him go without offering any sort of help.

The competition isn't always better- the door doth swing both ways.

"What if"

He might sadly be run over tomorrow (heaven forbid).

Personally I'd sack him and employ a lose 20yr old blonde chav in a mini skirt 😀

And this is why people don't tell there employers they are looking for work. The guy has been honest with you, explained his situation and now (I assume) behind his back you are debating ways of getting rid of him.

A few years ago, I told my then employers that I would be handing my notice in some time in the next few months as I would be going to work for the business my wife and I already owned. I and they actually appreciated this as it gave them time to have things inplace for when I left.

to be brutal, how do you know any employee is not thinking about leaving. He has told you, suggesting to me he does not want to leave but would like some help with driving costs.

and now (I assume) behind his back you are debating ways of getting rid of him.

A few years ago, I told my then employers that I would be handing my notice in some time in the next few months

Nope you can't and until they've made it official even advertising their position is very dodgy ground. All part of being an employer, employee have rights it's rough I know but it's only fair.

He hasn't told you anything...

No difference to saying he MIGHT get run down by a bus

If your employee has hinted he might leave I would ask him to help you get his replacement. In doing this you will push him to state an intention or a date and you will have started the replacement process.

No difference to saying he MIGHT get run down by a bus

All I am trying to do is understand our options at this early stage.

How long has he been with you? If its less than a year then there are more options.

Are there any other issues which need to be considered? Is he bored? Could he do more demanding work? Has he set up on his own on the side? To consider leaving a job in the current climate is a serious step. Make sure you consider other issues which may be turning his head - its very rarely just about money.

He has been with us just over two years.

I do think there are several issues he has, some fair, some not so.

hypothetically...

If an employer cant fire/make redundant someone under these circumstances, what's to stop the employer taking on additional staff for a period, say 3 months, then declaring that the role only needs one person to do it and the original guy's position is redundant because the new guy is "better" (fudge the numbers, if necessary)

Over those 3 months plus old guy's notice period you have old guy teaching new guy and old guy would probably get the hint soon enough 🙂

The only way you can get ride of someone is by sacking them, them resigning or dying.

Once they have been with you a year they gain the right not to be unfairly dismissed so unless they resign you have to dismiss for one of the valid legal reasons. The three main one are redundancy, conduct (they punched someone or nicked something) and capability (crap at the job).

So unless there are conduct or capability issues or his job is redundant (which it can't be if you are looking to replace him) you cannot sack him.

Best advice would be to talk to him and try and come up with flexible arrangement that would cut down on his traveling.

mastiles_fanylion - Member

"My point being is that now we KNOW he MIGHT leave, we really need to look elsewhere (although point taken cynic-al). He does have a notice period, but now we know his thoughts we can't just ignore it."

What would you be doing if he hadn't told you? Do that. If you desperately need to act now based on what he might do, then it seems like you've got a bit of a wider problem with your staffing or your notice periods.

To OP ... slowly, nicely, patiently, kindly, using good words ... put in some ideas into his head to encourage him leave. Subliminal message ...

Let him jumps by himself. Don't push him as you will be paying out compensation for undue stress etc

🙂

Your work is primarilly computer based isn't it? Would it be possible to offer him some sort of flexible working? If he could work from a computer could he not do his work at home for say, two days a week, cutting down his weekly driving time?

I work for a council and this is the way we're going. For instance, I have nothing in my diary tomorrow so am working from a local office rather than driving 20 miles to and from my usual office as all I'll need is a computer and a phone. If a wasteful, inefficient council can do it, surely the super duper private sector can? 😆

Good point by mrmo - other employees might be thinking of leaving. Some may see a more attractive post advertised tomorrow - downside of running a business I suppose.

You say you don't want him to leave...

What type of work is it? Could he work from home for a couple of days? I've been in the same position as him before and I could have worked from home but my boss was an old fashioned type and flatly refuesed. His view was that if he was there then so was everyone else - end of story. the modern world is changing...

Anyway, if he is valuable (and good people are hard to find no matter what anyone says) then it could be an idea...

Shortbread - he could work from home but his role is mainly a co-ordination one - he is an account manager. Being in the office is important as he needs to be around to take calls and to brief in to the developers. Not insurmountable but certainly would make our productivity drop.

Ohh and we are not averse to having employees working from home - we have one full time employee who works from home almost exclusively and he has a phone linked to our office network. I just don't think it is as workable for this guy.

45 miles and 1.5 hours isn't particularly tough, and he made the move.

Sit him down and ask him what HE thinks YOU should do for him.

And keep stum, let him make the running.

Fair enough Mastiles - good luck with punting him! 😉 If you get taken to tribunal just blame Shack 😆

I normally do blame him 😉

nothing we can do but something we can't ignore.

OP in being the needier than usual. Here's your cake boss. Would you like to eat it too?

Tell him he's having the company pink tigra from now on. He'll shirley leave after that.

Ask him how he feels about a compromise agreement.If you both agree on it, you could offer him a severance payment and he agrees (and signs the paperwork that you will have written out) to end it there.This would stop him from taking it to a tribunal.

Look into this.. i think its perfectly legal.Maybe its the answer.

[b]Of course[/b] you can't force the guy out, and nor should you; he's a valued member of staff. Your aim is to retain him.

What you can get him to do is really examine whether his surface whinging is more than that. This is genuinely for his good as much as yours; you want a motivated member of staff, and by asking him whether there's real substance to his complaint, you'll get him to properly consider it. At this point it's always a good idea to ask whether he's started looking elsewhere; a lot of people are pretty honest, and will tell you that yes, they've seen something closer to home that pays the same....in which case their mind may already be made up.

You've already determined that his role has to be office based, and that you have no intention of paying him more, so you have to be aware that if he asks for either/both and you say no, you're upping the stakes and making it more likely that he'll go.

If he comes back and says that he really wants to go, so be it.

If he comes back and says he's perfectly happy, no real issues, then ask him to stop the whinging, as it is unsettling, and anyway, he knew the terms when he joined. You should ask him how he feels, given that he's been turned down for his requests.

It's [b]entirely[/b] proper for you, his employer, to enquire as to what his plans are, given that he's said that he's thinking of leaving; [b]he[/b] raised this, not you, and you're doing what any good employer should - engaging, rather than hiding your head in the sand as so many 'managers' do. The one thing you cannot do is ignore this.

Obviously, he could come back and say that everything's fine, but then leave a month later. Fair enough, but you hold him to his notice period and prepare yourself to recruit in case this occurs. Get some CVs in to see what's happening in the market, and see what it'll cost you to replace.

As to whether you'd pay him redundancy or go down the compromise route...words fail me. [b]He[/b] is the one who volunteered the information that he wants to [b]resign[/b]. Why on earth would you consider paying someone for this?

I've emailed him a link to this thread. 🙂

Nckf -he is thinking of leaving due to petrol costs/travelling time, not a complaint.

And we aren't trying to force him out either, just wanting to understand what our options are - we have never been in this position before.

And we aren't trying to [s]force him out[/s] [i]work out how we can legally get rid of him[/i] either

FTFY

We are just trying to understand our options. And it appears to be clear that his announcement changes nothing so we can do nothing.

DD - from the OP

would we be legally able to then [b]ask[/b] the original employee to leave

m-f

I take your points entirely, and am mostly responding to the other posts.

However, petrol costs aren't going to go down, the office isn't going to get any closer to his house, you don't want to pay him any more and you want him in the office every day. Realistically, there's only one outcome to this, isn't there? And the sooner that both you and he get to the same conclusion, the better.

That way you are in control of the process, rather than hanging in limbo, as you seem to be at present. The obvious downside is that you'll be precipitating some disruption in the office, whereas if you leave things you might get a few more months out of the guy.

so we can do nothing.

Amen to that.

To be honest, on an overnight reflection on this, it feels like the employee is just having a hissy fit and is doing the office equivalent of someone in a relationship threatening to leave unless they get what they want from their partner.

I still think you'd be better off employing a dirty young Czech or Polish girl in his place.

I actually agree Hora.

And we would supply the staff uniform 8)

I suspect it is a negotiation tactic. I suppose you could do a cost benefit analysis and decide their worth to you - recruitment costa nd down time are generally quite large.
Could he actually get another job in this climate? Could you recruit someone cheaper in this climate?
Game of Poker basically do you want to give in or call their bluff /risk him leaving.

walla24 has got something that could be lethal, and maybe hard to trace.
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/mould-testing-where

I don't know if you are once again enjoying full conjectural rights but this young lady could also take up the slack in this area as well 😀

Mf how many salons do you own/operate?

Nickf wrote: "As to whether you'd pay him redundancy or go down the compromise route...words fail me. He is the one who volunteered the information that he wants to resign. Why on earth would you consider paying someone for this?"

mastiles wrote in the op: "but if, for example, we found someone who was ideal and wanted to employ them, would we be legally able to then ask the original employee to leave?"

Tell him you're opening offices in Tunisia and you would like him go out there and sort it out....