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Which is what extrapolation actually is.
Extrapolation doesn't work when there is a noisy minority. What you can probably extrapolate is that likely Reform had a higher election turnout of supporters than the majority parties.
Both Baroness Jay's and Jenrick's interviews made the 6 o'clock news.
(Does look like Clive Myrie has a black eye ballooning though)
So what's the word on the street/ other forums?
Are the knuckle draggers siding with musk or Nij Al Farage?
I posted this on the Starmer thread, but it’s worth repeating
If you’re in any doubt about peoples motivations for what’s presently happening and who actually gives a shit about the victims of the grooming gangs, I suggest you watch the Victoria Derbyshire interview on tonight’s Newsnight with Jess Phillips
An incredible woman who has dedicated her life to the victims of sexual and domestic violence, being called ‘a genocide rape apologist’ by a man who is presently the lap dog of a *ing multiple rapist and friend of Epstein. Jess Phillips has now had to have increased security due to the death threats she’s received since all this kicked off.
Elon Musk is a *ing cancer. And as for those jumping on his bandwagon…. ? My opinions on those ****s would explode the swear filter
That is my facebook account deleted now, I only probably logged on twice in the past 12 months anyway, the shitifacation happened years ago, but I kept my account open just in case old friends wanted to reach out, but with Zuckerberg deciding he wanted to go down the same path as musk and even stop pretending it will be used for anything other than right wing propaganda I don't even want my account an their claimed readership.
I should have done it after brexit, and definitely after the Cambridge analytics story broke, I am a little disappointed in my personal moral compass that it has taken so long for me to act.
Youtube will probably go soon as well, I do find it can be useful, but it is an incredible time sink if I am not careful, and ignoring the damage these scummy propogandists are doing to society now on a world wide level is not really an option I am comfortable with. Tearing myself away from the google infrastructure will take some work, especially as that is my main email account, but I think they are just the same as musk and zuckerberg really just without the easily hateable figurehead to focus on.
Bannon said, “The Democrats don’t matter, The real opposition is the media. And the way to deal with them is to flood the zone with shit.”
2018 Steve Bannon interview with Mark Lewis
You fix the correct stuff for people and Farage and Musk become irrelevant especially when you have such a majority
It's not that simple. Given we don't (and never will) exist in a utopian world there will always things impacting people negatively and those things will differ between people. You can't fix it all (you can't even really fix most of it) and anything remaining will still be susceptible to this kind of subversion of social media in order to spread misinformation.
Whether you believe there's some hidden global conspiracy of the rich/powerful to keep the masses in line so they remain in control or if it's just individual chancers looking to make a quick buck (or, more likely, somewhere in between) there will always be a motivation to try an polarize people via spreading misinformation etc., it's only recently though with the pervasiveness of social media that it's become so easy and cheap to do. At least before Musk's acquisition of X it was mostly about SM companies failing to properly regulate such misinformation (as keeping their platforms popular and relevant is their primary driver in order to keep making money), Musk has changed that though and one of the chancers with an agenda now has much more ability to control and spread that misinformation. I can't see how you address that other than via government regulation, it's no surprise then that buying politicians in order to avoid that is happening in plain sight.
That is my facebook account deleted now, I only probably logged on twice in the past 12 months anyway, the shitifacation happened years ago, but I kept my account open just in case old friends wanted to reach out, but with Zuckerberg deciding he wanted to go down the same path as musk and even stop pretending it will be used for anything other than right wing propaganda I don’t even want my account an their claimed readership.
Interesting. I closed my Twitter account recently and never use Instagram or Tiktok or anything else but Like you I use Facebook to stay in touch with my running clubs, some friends and a few interest groups. Closing this account will actually inconvenience me and isolate me as well. What irony.
That's the thing with youtube as well, there is some useful stuff on there, but the shitification now means wading through tons of shit to get to the nuggets. This past few weeks I have been trying to learn some home automation stuff for "home assistant" and the amount of absolute garbage that people post is just drowning out anything useful, after watching hours of content I just gave up on youtube as a useful resource for what I wanted, there may be a home assistant equivalent of dcrainmaker, but unless you already reasonably knowledgeable knowing who that might be is impossible.
That is my experience over the past years, I have now realised that I probably spend about 10 to 20 times as long getting frustrated sifting through crap than I actually spend watching anything useful or informative, and I think that is intentional on youtubes behalf as it keeps us engaged on their site just searching. I think it might have been dcrainmaker who wrote something about it a couple of years ago, how the youtube payment algorithm basically encourages content creators to create overlong, and more regular content than is realistically worthwhile or of acceptable quality.
With that and the political discourse it is creating, I have come to the conclusion that the negatives really do outweigh the positives and I am probably better of disengaging.
It is a shame, social media as a concept could really be a benefit for society, but the way the owners are running it it has become a big negative IMO.
...and I also think as AI slowly advances it will probably get a lot worse unless there is some serious legislation. I accept the principle of the importance of free speech, but the current situation isn't free speech, this is owned speech and propaganda and we are all paying the costs.
You fix the correct stuff for people and Farage and Musk become irrelevant especially when you have such a majority.
This is the political version of that Business cartoon, where one says to the other, "I've had a great idea, let's just make profitable things from now on"
You fix the correct stuff for people and Farage and Musk become irrelevant especially when you have such a majority.
Dunno if it already been pointed out, as i'm only dipping in and out of here, but the stuff that Farage, Musk and their fans think need fixing, for the most part, aren't ****ing broken. It's extensively fluff and misinformation.
All you can do is refute the claims that it's broken. And we're shafted on that as Musk owns twitter, and Farage gets a shit load of coverage because he's Farage and he says what those that own much of the media want to hear (and it generates revenue/clicks).
Google results have gotten way worse too, I think we're being pushed towards using their AI tools which will summarise all the youtube stuff, as it'll be the next thing undergo enshitification, with endless adverts embedded in the replies until it becomes as useless as everything else.
The irony...
Original vid to ensure it's not a faked image...
but the stuff that Farage, Musk and their fans think need fixing, for the most part, aren’t ****ing broken. It’s extensively fluff and misinformation.
All you can do is refute the claims that it’s broken.
What is broken is the connection between established political parties/politicians and voters, and delivery of voters expectations.
This isn't just a UK phenomena it represents a political crisis across much of the Western world.
That is what Musk, Farage, Trump, Le Pen, etc, are exploiting and what needs to be fixed to diminish their influences. How that is to be achieved isn't easy and quite frankly no one wants to take it very seriously. Maintaining the familiar status quo seems to be the preferred easy option, with fairly devastating consequences.
and delivery of voters expectations
And who is manipulating voters expectations? And will they stop doing so if those expectations are met? Of course not. We saw how fast "voters expectations" were moved on from Brexit to refugees, before the former was even fully delivered.
I binned off Twitter about a year or so ago. I do not miss it. Happy to bin off Instagram, & will do if I start seeing too much crap.
However Facebook is sadly too useful as a tool for community & group messenger chats. I have mitigated my Facebook use by deleting the app & only using it via my phones browser.
And who is manipulating voters expectations?
Manipulating? Sounds like some sort of international conspiracy across Europe and the United States.
Or maybe the failure of neoliberalism might be a better explanation?
I don't think Farage and Trump's connections are secret... no need to talk about conspiracy theories. I presume Farage will be over in the USA again soon, working out what he can do post inauguration to get Musk back on side and not lose Trump. Improving "everything" to not give these people the chance to do their populist shilling isn't going to happen, they will always find an in. There is always a perceived threat from outside, or within, to scare people into supporting you.
Bannon said, “The Democrats don’t matter, The real opposition is the media. And the way to deal with them is to flood the zone with shit.”
Indeed. Wikipedia is next on the hit list, if the rumours are to be believed; Musk told his fans to stop donating a few weeks back, because of "left-leaning editors".
I don’t think Farage and Trump’s connections are secret…
And you think that connection is influencing the whole of Europe?
How many European countries can you name where voters don't feel let down by established political parties and politicians, and where voters feel that their expectations are being met?
Whatever ever the total I don't think that they represent the majority of countries.
Interesting folk are saying FB has got worse - I've never Twittered or Insta'd so only have FB to go on but I limit what I look at, rarely argue with idiots (made an exception for one who declared Farage was "the future" the other day) and have unfollowed a couple of friends when I've seen weird shit from them, and I don't seem to be getting pushed any nonsense for or against me echo chamber views.
And you think that connection is influencing the whole of Europe?
To a certain limited extent, yes. And the role of USA owned internet media companies such as X & Meta is also key in many countries. But populists across Europe are only very loosely grouped, plenty of them need little help from other jurisdictions. That populism works everywhere, no matter how well the population is served, and how politics is organised, is a depressing thought... but true. Even acts of trying to create more equal societies, and using state power to improve everyone's quality of life, is fuel for the populist. The will still get people begrudging help and support for "others".
I beg to differ, the far-right in the United States and Europe are exploiting an existing situation for their own agenda.
They didn't create the existing situation, the conventional right-wing did.
What is broken is the connection between established political parties/politicians and voters, and delivery of voters expectations.
Maybe. Younger voters are both less likely to join political parties and vote, and overall are less engaged in local and national politics and yet at the same time are the most likely to complain that 1. they are ignored, and 2. that they don't like the outcome. While there are clear reasons why younger voters are disconnected (they own less of the wealth at the same age that their grandparents did for example), unless they engage, they're going nowhere. People get the politics they deserve is a truism for a reason.
Plus there's a difference between the politics to change people's lives, and the use of politics to make money, Trump is clearly, unashamedly in politics to enrich himself, if he enriches other multi-millionaires and billionaires at the same time, it neither worries, or bothers him. You can see this effect given the amounts of campaign donations made to Trump this time around. They're expecting a pay-off not a Alt-right revolution that apart from a few aresholes and idiots; nobody really wants. Musk has recently changed the way his algorithm on X categorises misinformation and truthfulness that has the entirety of the on-line Alt-right panicking. Not about the way that information is disseminated, but about their money pipe-lines. The grift is in the open.
@PrinceJohn Done the same, for the same reasons. The community group issue is a bit thorny, otherwise would just close my account.
Plus of course This iteration of the far-right are very good at exploiting the thing that "The Media" cannot seem to shake itself rid of, which is is. 1. treating them as if they are reliable narrators and faithful actors and 2. trying to be objective. Until the trad media stop engaging with theses folks in this way, the rest of us will be soaked in their dis-information.
. People get the politics they deserve is a truism for a reason.
Because its something with can be trotted out whilst patting yourself on the back for being so much more political aware and skilled? Its about as sensible a statement as the one misassigned to Churchill.
From memory young people are increasingly disengaged with political parties but increasingly so with other methods of political engagement such as campaign specific groups.
Not surprising really given young people have been repeatedly asked for their votes and then told to **** right off once the vote was provided.
Its not a surprise that when actual choices are given aka brexit people lash out.
That populism works everywhere, no matter how well the population is served, and how politics is organised, is a depressing thought… but true. Even acts of trying to create more equal societies, and using state power to improve everyone’s quality of life, is fuel for the populist. The will still get people begrudging help and support for “others”.
I think it's because populism seems based on a principle of behavioural economics - loss aversion is more powerful in individuals than the opportunity to gain. Make people scared that they'll lose out or aren't getting their 'fair' share and you'll get a large share of the attention so much easier than by presenting a solution where we all gain sufficiently and those who need the most support get it. At that basic level socialism must be a much tougher proposal than conservative capitalism. Which is daft really because I believe more of us lose out vs where we could be under capitalism, at least the way it is currently.
I thought all this was rather easy - seems not.
Facebook = organising group events and a loose 'community'. Just block any feeds that promote 'the good old days' and Clarkson's mug.
WhatsApp = messaging and making calls. Also creation of temporary groups for events.
Instagram = watching cool little snippets from MTB riders.
****ter = trolling right wing muppets when I fancy it. Ignore everything else.
Ticktock = no ****ing idea.
BBC News = actual news.
Isn't that basically it?
Jenrick v Robinson
Wow. In a sane world, Jenrick would never be heard of again after that interview. An awful example of someone who is only interested in advancing themself at the expense of others through opportunism, rather than actually doing something effective and useful.
Because its something with can be trotted out whilst patting yourself on the back for being so much more political aware and skilled?
No, not really, but paradoxically that doesn't make it less true. These are the politicians, and system we've got, I understand why folks are disengaged, but to change it, you need to engage with it, telling yourself anything else is just fairy-stories.
Do Elon's kids still hate him too? Thought so
****ter = trolling right wing muppets when I fancy it. Ignore everything else.
You're wasting your time and feeding Musk's algorithm while you're at it. What do you think he does on there most days? The same as you. Bin it..
Claiming that people get the politics they deserve is just an opinion. I can't see how it can be described as a true fact.
And it's an opinion which I strongly disagree with btw. In fact I believe the opposite, ie, people do not get the politics/politicians that they deserve.
Although to be fair that it is the only reason that capitalism made a huge concession a century or two ago and allowed ordinary people to vote for their governments.
but to change it, you need to engage with it, telling yourself anything else is just fairy-stories.
The problem is yours is even more fairy tales.
Remember the cry of the centrists "vote labour or the tories will get in" and "who else can you vote for" and the apoplectic meltdowns when people dared to suggest they would vote for a party who would represent them instead?
Thats the problem with your fairytale. The only way votes count are if they are overly represented in swing seats and its made clear the vote has to be earned. For young people no parties are bothering to try and earn their votes and hence no party gets them.
but to change it, you need to engage with it,
Engage all you like .. it's still a shit system (perhaps the best of many shit systems tried as someone said, I dunno) and the only reason it functions the way it does is that the wealthiest gain whoever gets in. The only difference is how much or how fast they gain. PR would help but social media manupulation and hence Musk etc are a big problem whatever system we have, because the average person engages with sm more than politics and can be manipulated. Lies go halfway round the world before Truth can get its shoes on.. etc. And the algorithms aren't about developing great processes for us all, they're about generating clicks and ad revenue and wealth for those in power and in position to influence it all, it's a politics<>sm circle jerk where Musk, Zuckerberg etc gain and we get screwed.
Wow. In a sane world, Jenrick would never be heard of again after that interview.
That sane world, that is doing all the lifting in that sentence, ended in 2016.
Nine years of this, and it's only going to get worse.
He shouldnt have been heard of again after his signing off of Desmonds property development to judge charges.
Nine years of this, and it’s only going to get worse.
Because we now have a Labour government Danny?