[Closed] Electric scooters - illegal……

If it's going to help her be a bit more independent, and she's sensible enough to not go buzzing pensioners, then I'd get her one. Illegal or not, they are pretty widely used and as long as those using them show some common sense and respect (as any other user or shared road/pavement/etc does of course) then I don't see the problem.

I would imagine at some point legislation will change and they'll be fine for use.

I think they are illegal to use on either road or pavement unless they are those rental ones.

They are as appropriate for use on pavements as bikes are. We have a rental scheme here and one of the headline rules is: "Don't ride on the pavement - only cycle lanes and roads".

So eureka – get her an electric scooter I thought. except they are illegal…… to use on pavement, not road

Privately owned e-scooters are illegal on road and pavement. They can only legally be used on private land. Some cities are trialling rental ones which are heavily geo-fenced and often have built in speed-limiters too - however they are at least legal to use on roads.

That said - most people are unlikely to care too much. Occasionally the police have a well-publicised "crackdown" on them and seize a few so it's worth considering if you can afford to be relieved of one in that manner.

They are illegal (outside of the rental exemptions) on the road as well since they are currently classed as a motorised vehicle and hence would need to meet all the requirements for a car or motorbike eg mot, tax, insurance and also be an approved design. The latter in particular is problematic and I dont think any have actually been passed for use.

The cheaper ones I've seen people using don't look like they aren't very good at all on any kind of hill.

It is a stupid rule - they are widely available to buy (Argos, Halfords, Decathlon etc) and they seem a pretty decent solution for cheap transport.

They are as appropriate for use on pavements as bikes are.

So often fine then.

"worth considering if you can afford to be relieved of one in that manner."

It's not just having it seized, you can also get points on your license (to be applied when you eventually get one, if you don't already?) and a conviction for driving without tax/MOT/license/insurance.

So eureka – get her an electric scooter I thought. except they are illegal…… to use on pavement, not road

I’m tempted to go ahead. Is she likely to be thrown into prison for the next 40 years? Does anyone actually care?

Whilst they may be a logical and totally sensible solution to environmentally friendly "short journey" transport they are illegal outside the agreed rental based trials. Send your MP an email asking them to hurry up and extend use etc.

In the meantime many police forces are actively enforcing so you can expect her to get stopped and prosecuted at some point for some or all of the following:
- driving without insurance
- driving without a license
- driving a motorised vehicle on the pavement

She'll get 6pts on her non-existent driving license and probably £300 in fixed penalty - but it could be much more. The scooter will be confiscated. If she says you bought if for her and told her to do it then they can pursue you for "causing and permitting" either instead or as well as her (more likely to do this if she is <16). That will be points on your license instead.

e-bike? If she can scoot on pavement safelty / responsible then she could cycle on pavement -- generally agreed by police not to prosecute for that where its the safer option and a much smaller fine and no points if they did.

Illegal but unlikely to attract much/any police attention - based on what's not happening in my area.
Will your daughter be on road or pavement?
If she'll be using scooter at 10pm what about lights - F&R - and hi-viz?

Around here the Police are very keen on seizing them whenever they can. That's in Derbyshire by the way.

They're a great sustainable transport solution for cities. Sadly the infrastructure hasn't caught up to their use yet, plus the fact that there's your usual cohort of irresponsible users derestricting them and riding like idiots which has drawn the attention of the police.

Here in Spain they're now widely used and tolerated, although there's sadly been a number of cases of older people and younger children killed by out of control morons riding fast on the pavement.

Poly + 1.

The £300 fine and 6 points are standard for for driving w/o insurance. That's going to be hugely problematic when she turns 17, gets a provisional and needs insurance or when she later passes her test and obtains a full licence limited to 6 points under the New Drivers Act.

E-bike is a far better solution.

when she later passes her test and obtains a full licence limited to 6 points under the New Drivers Act.

The "good news" is the New Drivers Act only applies to points after you pass your test. The bad news is that if she then did get six more points (one mobile phone use, or letting her insurance lapse, or driving far too fast) she'd be disqualified for six months.

The £300 fine and 6 points are standard for for driving w/o insurance. That’s going to be hugely problematic when she turns 17, gets a provisional and needs insurance or when she later passes her test and obtains a full licence limited to 6 points under the New Drivers Act.

How does that work in practice? AIUI if a new driver gets 6 points in the first 2 years they lose their license, so would someone have to pass their test in order to lose their license to then re take?

Edit: ah, cheers poly

They’re a great sustainable transport solution for cities. Sadly the infrastructure hasn’t caught up to their use yet,

So not really a great solution then;)
As a road user in London they are a dangerous nuisance.
They can’t cope with the degraded road surfaces so weave around randomly, the design makes them unstable when used one handed so signalling is out, the lights fitted to them are not suitable for road use. Then add in the chipped ones, the general crappy road manners of the riders and their use on pavements and there worth is considerably reduced.

Good for getting head and neck injuries though.

Anyone know the rules on a standard "kick" scooter, ie the adult sized ones that have no motor on them. Can these be ridden on the pavement with no restrictions ?

Then add in the chipped ones, the general crappy road manners of the riders and their use on pavements and there worth is considerably reduced

like I've said before, if you live in a city with no want or need to ever own a car or licence; if you live outside of the norms of law abiding society; or if you just dont consider the long term consequences of your actions, then the worst outcome is

£300 in fixed penalty...[and] The scooter will be confiscated.

How many day's Tube travel (or in your case, evening taxis) is that? Go buy another scooter the next day.

if you care about having a driving license, not having a criminal conviction, and so on then the consequense is far greater.

Guess what the above does to the average user's road sense and courtesy.

I dont own one. I'll likely buy one the day they are legalised.

If there's a footpath for a scooter, there's a footpath for a bike. If you ride considerately and don't hit the school run before 3pm, they'll be quiet enough not to inconvenience anyone.

However, assuming your daughter is an adult, and completely not trying to sound like a dick, step back and let her deal with this herself.

1000s in use all over Cambridge. 1% legitimate trial scheme, the rest all illegal.

They should just legalise them all, they're not going anywhere and seem to get on fine with cars (no worse than bikes).

Not sure it's much quicker or easier than an e-bike? Although much cheaper obviously.

Anyone know the rules on a standard “kick” scooter, ie the adult sized ones that have no motor on them. Can these be ridden on the pavement with no restrictions ?

S. 72 Highway Act 1835:

Penalty on persons committing nuisances by riding on footpaths, &c.

If any person shall wilfully ride upon any footpath or causeway by the side of any road made or set apart for the use or accommodation of foot passengers; or shall wilfully lead or drive any horse, ass, sheep, mule, swine, or cattle or carriage of any description, or any truck or sledge, upon any such footpath or causeway; or shall tether any horse, ass, mule, swine, or cattle, on any highway, so as to suffer or permit the tethered animal to be thereon; every person so offending in any of the cases aforesaid shall for each and every such offence forfeit and pay any sum not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale, over and above the damages occasioned thereby.

Does it need to be an eScooter? Could you get her a non-powered one? Without knowing the terrain, it could be a nice way to travel IMO. I've considered one for jumping off the bus early to avoid the last cross town section which always is the slowest due to congestion. Would save 20 mins on the bus for a 10min scoot.

Edit: this was pre pandemic permanent WFH.

There is an exhaustive discussion of what s. 72 means in Coates vs DPP (a 2011 case about a Segway).

Whether it is powered or not is not the issue.

ETA para 84 of the judgment (Langstaff J.'s supporting comments) gives a good overview of how the interpretation of s. 72 should be approached when other devices, powered and unpowered, fall to be considered.

Should they be legal? Maybe, maybe not. But as it stands they aren’t.

Have you thought about An Actual Bicycle?

For Poly and Tom Howard. Further clarification regarding endorsements and the New Drivers Act.

Ermm.....

New drivers
Your licence will be cancelled (revoked) if you get 6 or more points within 2 years of passing your test.

Points on your provisional licence
Any penalty points on your provisional licence that have not expired will be carried over to your full licence when you pass your test. However, your licence will be cancelled if you get any further penalty points that take you up to a total of 6 or more within 2 years of passing your driving test.

In essence, passing a test does not reset / wipe the slate clean of any points accrued as a learner. The points are subject to the same 3 year endorsement period as most offences accrued on a full licence.

Provisional licences aren't subject to the NDA, so have a 12 point limit before disqualification under totting up. A provisional licence holder who passes their test with 6 or more points can still obtain a full licence but NDA rules means their new full licence is 'brimmed' (regardless if it's got 6 or 11 points) and they can't accrue a single additional point in the first 2 years from passing their test. If they do, the licence is revoked by DVLA, rather than a court disqualification.

This also means that any teenager on an e-scooter who is just below the age of applying for a provisional can be stopped and fined, have a DVLA driver record created with 6 or more points for the e-scooter offences, then obtain a provisional with those 6+ points already on it, pass their test and then carry the 6+ points through the 2 year NDA period. As I said, problematic! Hate to think what their insurance premium would be.

I’d paint it up to look like one from a local scheme
The Police won’t take a second look 😀

From the Mets website
Legal use of an e-scooter
It's legal to use an e-scooter on private land with the permission of the land owner.

Where a trial rental scheme is running, it's legal to use a rental e-scooter on a public road or cycle lane, provided you have the correct licence and follow road traffic regulations.
Penalties and offences
If you don't have a licence, or the correct licence, or are riding without insurance you could face a Fixed Penalty notice:

with a £300 fine and six penalty points on your licence for having no insurance
up to £100 fine and three to six penalty points for riding without the correct licence
You could also be committing an offence if you're caught:

riding on a pavement; Fixed Penalty Notice and possible £50 fine
using a mobile phone while riding; £100 and six penalty points
riding through red lights; Fixed Penalty Notice, £100 fine and possible penalty points
drink driving: the same as if you were driving a car, you could face court imposed fines, a driving ban and possible imprisonment
If you're using an e-scooter in public in an antisocial manner, you can also risk the e-scooter being seized under section 59 of the Police Reform Act.

When riding an e-scooter, we would always recommend wearing safety protection such as a helmet and to keep to the speed limit.

She doesn't want to cycle because the roads are too busy, so you're thinking of getting her a scooter so that she can ride on... erm... ?

She doesn’t want to cycle because the roads are too busy, so you’re thinking of getting her a scooter so that she can ride on… erm… ?

I can see the logic - a lot of why cycling on roads is scary is cos of the speed differential if an untrained rider is doing 10-12mph. At least on an e-bike or e-scooter, you can do 15-20mph and move with the flow a bit.

drink driving: the same as if you were driving a car, you could face court imposed fines, a driving ban and possible imprisonment

We have a legal e scooter trail scheme in Cambridge and they all shut down at 8pm to stop pissed people riding them (obs assuming no one gets smashed before 8pm).

On my days off I like to start with a few cans of special brew then hire an e-scooter just to make my point.

@ cougar - I specifically said to use on pavement, not road

No you didn't.

In any case,

I'm sure your daughter is a model citizen. But round here these things are a bloody menace universally piloted by utter knuckles. On the roads they have zero road sense and on the pavement the speed differential between vehicle and pedestrian is too great.

If she doesn't want to ride on the road as it's too busy and you don't care about the legalities of riding on the pavement, why not just get a bike and cycle on the pavement when it's busy?

Because she point blank refuses to cycle….😤
And I don’t think there is anyway to stick a bike at her work anyway

Because she point blank refuses to cycle….😤

Walk, then? 🤷‍♂️ Is there a safety issue here, a young woman on her own at 10pm? Or something else I'm missing?

And I don’t think there is anyway to stick a bike at her work anyway

You don't think so, or there actually isn't?

That being the case, is there somewhere for her to stick a scooter?

That being the case, is there somewhere for her to stick a scooter?

Scooters fold up really small, so just stick it under the desk. One big advantage over bikes....

I have tried one of the rental scooters and felt a lot less safe than I do cycling. One of the big issues was indicating - the scooter did not have indicators - I could use my arm to signal left but not right as I would have to take my hand off the bars and so would slow to a stop.

The small wheels did not cope at all well with potholes and other poor surfaces.

The rental scooters also have crap lights although that could be fixed by attaching lights to body or helmet.

Overall I think that scooters could be an asset in certain places but not really on the busy roads and hill type journey you describe. E-bike would seem to be the sensible choice. If she does not want to ride one then I would tell her that she can fund taxis or walk.

I've just rented my first one and was shocked at how slow I was compared to the traffic around me. All ok once we got onto the shared use paths, but I wouldn't want to use it on the main route into the city centre from home.

Cougar - you seem to have missed pretty much everything I’ve written. She usually walks there - it’s about 4 miles. It’s also a fair hill. She Doesn’t really want to walk back, understandably

I’d like her to cycle but a) she doesn’t want to; b) it’s A roads c ) potential bike storage issue. There’s a section I find pretty hairy (near m25 junction, dual carriageway feeding onto overpass) which is pretty hairy for me in daylight

Scooting sensibly up the pavement seemed a good option. She could get there and back in reasonable time.

I’ve just rented my first one and was shocked at how slow I was compared to the traffic around me. All ok once we got onto the shared use paths, but I wouldn’t want to use it on the main route into the city centre from home.

15 mph isn't any faster than average non sporty cyclist riding to work by bike.

How old is the person in question? - would a 50cc moped be an option?

15 mph isn’t any faster than average non sporty cyclist riding to work by bike.

Rental ones are usually limited to about 12mph and they'll often drop to a lot less in pedestrianised areas, like 5-8mph max. They're geo-fenced. Private ones will quite often do up to 25mph or so, there's a few of the more heavily built ones will do even more.

Amazing how much time and tech we can put into restricting a quiet clean mode of micro-transport but any hint of fitting cars with speed limiters is met with howls of outrage. Ultimately, it makes rental scooters a really poor choice of transport - in fact downright scary to use on roads since they're so slow - which the cynic in me suggests it's a way for Government to look at the trials and say "yeah but no-one is really using them so they can stay illegal, carry on driving everywhere".