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If folk think that EV’s are “pure greenwash”, look at the alternatives – have you any idea what it takes to get petrol & diesel into the pumps?
Petrol & diesel aren't the alternatives.
Petrol & diesel aren’t the alternatives.
I think you will find that a number of car manufacturers are starting to think that petrol is the alternative to erm petrol and electric. Yes they have an interest, but electric will not be the way forward IMO, apart for city cars with very small range
If folk think that EV’s are “pure greenwash”, look at the alternatives – have you any idea what it takes to get petrol & diesel into the pumps?
An alternative being an electric bike instead of none electric? Not that anyone calling EVs pure greenwash would own one of course.
Nope – pure greenwash.
The problem with that argument is it resonates very well with the petrol (diesel) heads. They are looking for excuses to do nothing and they love a bit of rhetoric that says change is pointless/impossible/needless etc. You aren't convincing potential eco-concerned EV owners to switch to walking you are pursuading diesel owners that they are the righteous ones!
They are far from CO2 free
Neither is your bike, nor public transport. It could approach very low CO2 though if the energy infrastructure in the country was designed to allow easy low cost charging when there is an excess of renewables and penalise charging when it is not. Some suppliers have programmes offering something like that but its all a bit of a mess, I've never seen a public charger with differential pricing and I've spent >6 months trying to get the right meter installed to do it at home. Blaming the EV owner or provider etc - is hardly sensible they are providing the tools that could help drive renewables its the screwed up electricity companies and their regulation that stips us getting close to ultra low CO2 driving.
Actually the big issue is that salary sacrifice EV schemes are grossly unfair. My company doesn't operate such a scheme, its been "a work in progress" for 12+ months, and I doubt it will happen in 2023 - so if I want an EV I'm paying for it out of my fully taxed income. If someone in another company wants one they can get an EV and save 20-46% tax + NI depending on how much they earn. The higher earners get the bigger tax saving. The minimum wage worker probably can't afford an EV at all and has to make do with Bangernomics/the bus. Like pensions and other tax incentives they help the comfortable, really help the wealthy and are inaccessible to the struggling.
An alternative being an electric bike instead of none electric? Not that anyone calling EVs pure greenwash would own one of course.
Why not?
I don't think any transport system that invloves 100kg people personally transporting themselves in their own 2.5 ton vehicle is ever going to be that efficient.
You are allowed officially to run a cable across the pavement to charge from your house
No you're not. It's up to the local authority, and policy varies.
I don’t think any transport system that invloves 100kg people personally transporting themselves in their own 2.5 ton vehicle is ever going to be that efficient
What car are you referring to, even a iveco daily tipper is less than 2.5 ton empty.
e.g. Audi Q8 e-tron, Merc EQS suv
e.g. Audi Q8 e-tron, Merc EQS suv
Are they 2.5 tonne? They’ll be bloody heavy my e-torn is but it’s under 2.5 tonne.
Land Rover Discovery is around 2.5 tons too, I think there are quite a few these days!
I remember it being pointed out to me that the ramps in some older NCP car parks were only originally rated for 2 tons, and there were 2.5 ton cars commonly available - and that must have been back in 2006 or so...!
Edit, I wonder how batteries play into the 'stated weight' - presumably ICE cars are weighed with the petrol tank being empty? While in an EV, the battery is always there.
Drac
Full Membere.g. Audi Q8 e-tron, Merc EQS suv
Are they 2.5 tonne? They’ll be bloody heavy my e-torn is but it’s under 2.5 tonne.
Yes they are, the EU weight is 2610KG, unladen 2585kg according to Audi.
Are they 2.5 tonne?
Yes.
An alternative being an electric bike instead of none electric? Not that anyone calling EVs pure greenwash would own one of course.
Busted!...or not.
Recognising a marketing strategy might just have an ulterior motive in order to sell product and not the greater good has nothing to do with owning an ebike.
Calling out something misleading doesn't mean the caller is morally perfect. I'm human. I'm flawed, but I'm honest about that and I think I recognise the wool-pullers.
I don't have an ebike because I think I'm saving the planet. It's a toy.
I don't get tax breaks or incentives to own it. It's a toy. Just like my other 3 bikes.
I'm quite fatalistic about things really. I don't think we have the ability not to screw everything up, but trying to make people believe that they can consume their way to ecological harmony is just wrong.
We're all part of the problem and making people go around thinking that's not the case because they bought a Tesla isn't helpful.
Lol I didn’t lease an ev to save the planet or ‘willy wave’.
It was the same price as the Volvo V40 4 year lease that we were giving back and add in free charging at work and cheaper charge tariff at home then we’ve saved quite a bit of money
Yeah I get that, but isn't all that because it's currently incentivised, much like solar and insulation was initially?
All that will presumably disappear once everyone starts getting involved.
You get hooked in, and then you're locked in.
Yes
Bloody hell. Well that’s one of out the many models available.
Bloody hell. Well that’s one of out the many models available.
Two. But the general point is that EVs are very heavy.
Regarding greenwash...
If even 50% of the cars I walk/bike past each day were electric, the air I breathe will be much nicer. From my perspective, they're worth it from that alone.
I don’t have an ebike because I think I’m saving the planet. It’s a toy.
I don’t get tax breaks or incentives to own it. It’s a toy. Just like my other 3 bikes.
I have an EV it was cheaper than an ICE, the hybrid I had before convinced me an EV was useable and nice to drive. It’s not a toy, it lets my wife get to work and now my job changed me too a few times a month. I got it as it’s cleaner but it’s not going to save the planet.
I got it as it’s cleaner
For us, locally.
I don’t think any transport system that invloves 100kg people personally transporting themselves in their own 2.5 ton vehicle is ever going to be that efficient.
Your point is not entirely unreasonable, and certainly, a 2.5 x 5m footprint on the road is not good either for 1 person, BUT its worth noting that EV manufacturers put a lot of effort into getting weights down because range matters to EV buyers. So:
MG5 EV Unladen (but with driver) 1607kg, GVWR 1974kg - thats for a fairly big estate.
Tesla Model 3 (dual motor version - there's a lighter one) 1847kg, GVWR 2265kg
VW ID3 (max range version) 1772 kg with the drive, GVWR 2240kg
Yes it could be even lower with a smaller 1 person vehicle, but that would lose the flexibility to carry your partner, children, a weeks holiday kit, a bike, a surfboard etc. etc. So people end up with a 2nd vehicle.
I've had a Kia Niro EV for 5 months now and done more than 11,000 miles. I charge at home on overnight cheap rate - just dropped to 7.5p/kW. Charging on motorways costs similar to petrol/diesel on a pence per mile basis. Home charging is around £5 for 225 miles, but charging on the likes of Instavolt at 75p per kW would be £45 for those 225 miles. Worse in winter (0 degrees daytime) when I get 200 miles to a full battery. Without home charging the faff of charging while you sit in the car would just kill the nice, fluffy feeling.
Drac
Yes
Bloody hell. Well that’s one of out the many models available.
The BMW ix50 is 2500KG +, Volvo EX90 2800KG+, BMW i7 2770KG, Polestar 3 2584KG.
It's really not unusual for this class of EV.
In terms of energy use, it's not such an issue as on ICE cars because of energy recovery systems, nonetheless it did raise a smile when my colleague was showing me that his Tesla had the lightweight carbon fibre spoiler on it.
BUT its worth noting that EV manufacturers put a lot of effort into getting weights down because range matters to EV buyers. So:
MG5 EV Unladen (but with driver) 1607kg, GVWR 1974kg – thats for a fairly big estate.
Tesla Model 3 (dual motor version – there’s a lighter one) 1847kg, GVWR 2265kg
VW ID3 (max range version) 1772 kg with the drive, GVWR 2240kg
Those are all very heavy.
I'm not a petrol head so don't really follow the stats. Last time I was I moderately interested I had a Corolla GT Coupe. Carried 4 people and had a decent boot. Weighed 970kg. Not what I'd call progress.
I'm not sure I'd be interested in a solution where you have to rely on public charging to get to work.
In my town there are only four or five spaces for public charging. Three of those are in Tesco, so slow charge and if you stay longer than three hours you get a parking ticket.
The non-Tesco one is ancient and doesn't appear to work much of the time. And it's even slower than the Tesco one and sits in a pay and display car park so you have the hassle of guesstimating how long you need the space for.
The town has a population of 12k and much of the town is terraced so there is plenty of demand for public chargers.
EV just won't work for me because of this. You just can't guarantee access to charging points when you need to get to work. I live in a terrace with no street parking, like very many others here.
My OH has an EV and we've had more than a few difficult days trying to find an available charger when she's needed to do a bigger trip. Having to do this on a regular basis would be exhausting.
I wonder how batteries play into the ‘stated weight’ – presumably ICE cars are weighed with the petrol tank being empty?
Empty Vs Full fuel tank is only about 40-45 kilos for most mid sized cars carrying 55-65 litres of fuel. And probably less than 0.1 grams for an EV...
Last time I was I moderately interested I had a Corolla GT Coupe. Carried 4 people and had a decent boot. Weighed 970kg. Not what I’d call progress.
But you won't be walking away from that after anything more than a minor bump.
EVs are all heavy because the focus is still on range. And more range = more battery. Bigger suspension, stronger (and heavier) crash structures. And more weight.
I've said it before (and been told i'm wrong) but if we could solve the charging issues, and have many quick chargers and rapid "filling" of a smaller battery, the cars would get a lot lighter a lot quicker.
We'd also need to beat some common sense into a lot of dinosaurs who seem to have the need to drive to aunty Mabels place in the ighlands of Scotland EVERY WEEKEND!
No, they don't, the huge majority of car users could either walk, use a bike/bus, or drive a car with a sub 200km range and *still* only need to charge it once or twice a week.
For us, locally.
Yup, locally very much.
Two. But the general point is that EVs are very heavy.
Certainly are.
When I was a kid a afamily car was 700kgs. Now its often twice that. Crash protection will add some but a lot is parasitic weight and improved performance needing bigger wheels and brakes and all the electric gadgety
its perfectly possible to build and electric 4 seater at less than 500 kg with decent crash protection. There is no market for such a basic car tho apart from japans kei kcars
@vondally check how much the actual cost is of the salary sacrifice scheme. The tax breaks are certainly attractive, but a lot of the schemes are provided by companies that what such a margin on top of what you can lease a car for that its barely any cheaper than paying out of pocket (and may be significantly more than a lease on a ICE car)
But the general point is that EVs are very heavy.
Heavier yes but as pointed out they're not all extreme. Mine is 1600kg which is only slightly lighter than my older Passat at 1572kg.
Last time I was I moderately interested I had a Corolla GT Coupe. Carried 4 people and had a decent boot. Weighed 970kg. Not what I’d call progress.
Well, a comparable EV is cheaper to run, probably a lot safer, and has much lower tailpipe emissions so I think there's certainly some progress there.
As said ad nauseum, for society to progress we need to move away from large scale personal transport as it's a disaster; we also need to move away from overconsumption. BUT, given where we are, EVs do represent progress in terms of reduced emissions compared to ICE cars. If we have to replace cars as old ones reach the end of their lives, then they may as well be electric.
When I was a kid a afamily car was 700kgs. Now its often twice that. Crash protection will add some but a lot is parasitic weight and improved performance needing bigger wheels and brakes and all the electric gadgety
Have a look at the A pillar on an old Mini or Morris 1000 and compare it to that on a modern Fiesta. A Citroen C4 Cactus weighs about 950kg, by the way, so I don't think that's too bad.
its perfectly possible to build and electric 4 seater at less than 500 kg with decent crash protection.
The Carver S+ I linked to in the other thread that I tagged you in weighs about 330kg. Great, but the downside is a 60 mile range. And one seat. 500kg is not feasible for a four seater with a useful range.
its perfectly possible to build and electric 4 seater at less than 500 kg with decent crash protection.
Only in the land of make believe and materials that either cost a million quid a tonne or only exist in peoples imagination.
Might manage an electric 2 seater with massively limited top speed (50-70 range) at 500 kilos, much like the moped cars you have today (they weigh about 400 kilos with a small motorbike engine, so add 100 kilos for the battery and related ancillaries).
They also disintegrate if anything bigger hits them, no airbags, limited protection.
Kei cars. Of course its possible - a lighter car needs a smaller batter and uses less power. etc etc. Yo just need to design it within the parameters
A bigger A piller is for looks not strength - huge blockly A pillars are often mainly trim. Look at the size of a motorsport roll cage. Yes they need to be bigger that a 60s car - but not the huge size they are now
Volvo did a load of work on this.
Of course its possible
Show your working?
A pillars are often mainly trim
I can tell the difference between metal and plastic thanks.
current kei cars are not that light. the first one I googled (Honda N-One) is 900kg. there are some electric kei cars coming out, which are relatively light, and the i-miev from a few years ago also ticked this box. you don't see many of them around as they're pretty rubbish from a car perspective, people want more space and more toys
A pillars are often mainly trim
They’re definitely not having seen hundreds cut over the years. However, the old cars you spoke of were absolutely terrible, they folded and collapsed with ease. Not good for those inside at the time.
https://www.media.volvocars.com/global/en-gb/media/pressreleases/5273
volvo did a lot of research on this and can easily make an A pillar that does not obstruct vision
those huge thick a pillars are far bigger than they need to be for strength alone - they are also designed to look strong. tjhink of how big a race car roll cage is then compare it to an a pillar on many modern cars.
Loads of info out there around this/
If they're just to look strong why aren't they just thin metal and plastic?
Actually you know what never mind.
Show your working?
I think the Kei-car industry would love to see it. Currently they're falling some way short of your 500Kg target.
Even a Renault Twizy isn't far off that weight.
Thats not what i said at all
What I said was they are bigger than they need to be. Yes they need the strength but as race car roll cages and Volvo have shown they could be much smaller - but the need it not just to be strong but to look strong - hence they end up much bigger than needed for the strength alone
Read the volvo link to see how small they can be made.
That press release is from 2001.
Can you share your relevant qualifications so we assess if you talking from a position of authority? 👍
To get the weight down needs composites. Of course its possible but no one is going to buy a 500 kg basic car for the same cost as a 2 tonne luxury car
Some cars have front seats that weigh huge amounts like 50+ kilos each - because of all the eletrical stuff in them. thats all parasitic weight than then needs more energy to accelerate it - so yo need a bigger battery and biggar brakes etc and the weigh spirals.
We are back to needing legislation to enforce this
Look at the size of kei cars and compare them to what you are driving?
Look at family cars from 40 years ago - yes you need a bit more weight for modern crash safety but not that much - again look at Kei cars.
The attitudes you guys are showing is why the planet is going to be basically uninhabitable in your childrens lifetimes and obvious damage in yours.
its not a question of " its too difficult to do this without giving up what I want so do nothing" its "unless we do this the earth will become uninhabitable - how do we do it?"
With regard to weights of EVs, yes, they are heavier than ICEs at the moment, but not drastically so for many direct comparisons. The advent of airbags, safety cells and all manner of safety and electronic equipment in vehicles means the weights have been creeping up. It's no point comparing current weights with those of cars from the 70s and 80s.
Lighter vehicles would be good for everyone, but through regulations (safety) and personal choice around additional features a growth in sheer size, we're not focussing on that as much.
A current 3 series BMW saloon is around 1600kg (depends on engine and spec), a Tesla Model 3 from 1750kg. However as noted above, the larger SUVs seem to have really added on the pies when becoming EVs (e.g. Volvo XC90 going from 1950kg to 2800kg (for EX90) if the data is to correct).
Kei cars or equivalent have their place, but vehicular trips of less than a couple of miles need to be restricted anyway leaving cars to provide transport solutions where public infrastructure cannot. Is a tiny vehicle the answer - possibly not given the use cases are quite narrow for one. Would some sort of hired mobility solution work better - yes if we can change the mindset of people to accept they don't need to own something that spends 90% of it's time stationary. But getting an end to end solution that provides mobility on demand, in the right shape/size for the task is a way off yet.
As such, EVs aren't a perfect solution for personal mobility but given the lack of infrastructure investment towrds public transport outside of large cities most people will still need vehicles for the foreseeable. If they're going to replace older vehicles anyway, surely the EV route is an improvement over an equivalent ICE vehicle across entire lifecycle including manufcature/supply chain and ongoing fuelling?
tjagain
Full MemberThe attitudes you guys are showing is why the planet is going to be basically uninhabitable in your childrens lifetimes and obvious damage in yours.
its not a question of ” its too difficult to do this without giving up what I want so do nothing” its “unless we do this the earth will become uninhabitable – how do we do it?”
A BMW i3 is about as light as you will get for a family sized electric car with current battery tech.
That uses narrow wheels for weight & aero savings, carbon fibre frame, lightweight seats, etc. It still weighs in at 1300-1400KG depending on spec. 500KG is not realistic with current battery tech.
For a city car limited to 28mph, maybe. Those have very relaxed safety standards compared to a regular car though.
eta- like this one previewed on Fully Charged yesterday, take a look and you'll see it's basically a glorified golf buggy. This is the 2 seat version but they are planning a 4 seater.
The attitudes you guys are showing is why the planet is going to be basically uninhabitable in your childrens lifetimes and obvious damage in yours.
Ok you know what, I told myself I wasn't going to comment but this is ****ing aggravating.
Most of us WANT the same changes as you. You keep banging on about how easy it is, apparently completely ignorant of the realities of the situation. What you wish for is all fine and good but given the world we live in right now, it cannot be done overnight. You going on about it will not make it happen.
We point out why it isn't happening right now, and you mistake that for an endorsement of the status quo.
I would really like a cheap safe small electric car. But, when I needed one, I got the best one I could afford that was available. And that's how these things work, because of the capitalist system we have and don't you ****ing dare pin that on ME personally. You are extremely naive, I'm trying to point out what you are missing. But you refuse to listen, as always.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to the shop. On foot, in the pouring rain.