[Closed] Election Campaign

Another incisive foray into political threads there CPT 😉

I tend to ignore them these days, Junky. I found I was boring myself, so heaven knows what others were thinking!

That was just too funny not to share though! As mentioned, it's like no one in his team stopped and said, "Was this in The Thick of It or not?"

You in favour of Downing St errections then JY ? 🙂

I think I said it was full of dicks so not quite the same thing 😉

CPT yes it was quite surreal /bonkers

You're confusing the graduate endownment with tuition fees. They were/are completely different things.

Also, student grants? Not since ~1997 unless you're in medicine.

No wonder you're confused if you can't find sources who know what they're talking about.

surreal /bonkers

How much are they paying Axelrod for his brilliance?

I note that all mention of it has been scrubbed from Ed and Labour's twitter accounts as well. As if they're saying "What stone? No. No idea what you're talking about."

If anyone can explain how a national police force is progressive?

I don't think SNP supporters are anti English they are anti anyone who doesn't agree with them. I know some mostly Scottish folk who've been verbally and physically abused for not coming out in support of the SNP

Oh why not!

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Plenty more out there.

Sadly, none so far reference owls.

Sorry squirrel I mistook the Uni of Edinburgh as a sensible source. My mistake. What do they know, hey. Good job THM jnr didn't apply there! It was a v good Uni in my day.

It's appalling that anyone should be abused or intimidated for their political views or indeed any other views.This behaviour does occur from a tiny minority of nutjobs on all sides of the debate.It's not a characteristic of the vast majority of Snp supporters equally it is not a characteristic of the vast majority of supporters of the labour tory or liberal parties.

It seems as if the Tory tactic this election is, "we can't possibly overplay our let's frighten everyone with the SNP bogeyman card".

The Tories brought one of their big guns here in Croydon to warn people that if they voted Labour the SNP would demand that any Labour government ignores Croydon.

[b][i]"If you think Croydon will get a look-in under that government, you can forget it. You'd have a weak Prime Minister and the Scottish Nationalists would have the decisive say and they are not interested in Croydon." [/i][/b] - George Osborne

[url= http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/NEWS/12925483.ELECTION_2015__Croydon__would_not_get_a_look_in_under_Labour_government___claims_George_Osborne ]Croydon 'would not get a look-in under Labour government', claims George Osborne[/url]

.

.

Incidentally George Osborne also said that Croydon was, quote :
[i][b]"one of the fastest-growing, most-prosperous communities in London".[/i][/b]

This is Tory "prosperity" :

[url= http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/cent-Croydon-s-young-people-living-poverty-report/story-18220732-detail/story.html ]Twenty per cent of Croydon's young people living in poverty, report shows[/url]

[b][i]ONE in five children in Croydon is living in poverty, with more than a third surviving below the breadline in the borough's most deprived areas.[/i][/b]

[url= http://insidecroydon.com/2014/01/19/6000-households-in-north-croydon-living-in-fuel-poverty/ ]6,000 households in north Croydon living in fuel poverty[/url]

[b][i]More than 11 per cent of households in the north of Croydon don’t have enough money to heat their homes this winter, according to the government’s own statistics.[/i][/b]

[url= http://www.endchildpoverty.org.uk/london/poverty-in-your-area/croydon-21/ ]Poverty in your area[/url]

[b][i]Croydon has above-average levels of deprivation when compared with other London boroughs[/i][/b]

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/exclusive-socalled-inwork-poverty-soars-by-59-under-coalition-as-more-people-with-jobs-are-forced-to-claim-housing-benefit-9340907.html ]So-called 'in-work poverty' soars by 59% under Coalition as more people with jobs are forced to claim housing benefit[/url]

[b][i]The areas with the biggest increase in claimants by working families include Croydon (up by 1,100 per cent)[/i][/b]

[url= http://insidecroydon.com/2015/04/29/its-economically-grim-down-south-here-in-croydon/ ]It’s economically grim down south here in Croydon[/url]

[b][i]According to Trust for London, Croydon offers the lowest pay rates of any borough south of the river.

Last year Croydon had the eighth highest rate of possession orders (when landlords are granted the right to evict tenants) of all English local authorities – and the second highest by number of orders. Around 1 in 20 of all Croydon residents are on the council housing waiting list.[/i][/b]

Obviously George Osborne thinks he can talk up how well Croydon is doing in the same way as he talks up how well the economy is doing, it is however bollocks, as the facts prove.

Shocking stats Ernie and interesting to compare with how they stack up over time, isn't it.

SNP leaders say that because the 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Act makes it very difficult to dissolve parliament, voting down a budget would not be a fatal blow for a minority Labour government but would merely force it to come back with revised proposals.

😀 😀

Apparently some english are insisting the SNP are doing this. IIRC its the exact same one who agree you must never ever be in govt with the SNP as they cannot be trusted

Sorry squirrel I mistook the Uni of Edinburgh as a sensible source. My mistake.

Evidently.

Because what I said is true. Unless there is something in that report that has been missed out then it certainly does look like they haven't the foggiest what they are actually talking about. Bursaries and grants are two very different things, as are tuition fees and graduate endownments (and the SNP never haad anything to do with scrapping tuition fees).

I couldn't give a stuff who wrote it, if it claims what you say it does it's badly written pish a high school student should be embarrassed to hand in.

Game changer:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11579451/Lily-Savage-star-Paul-OGrady-to-leave-Britain-if-Conservatives-wins-election.html

Who wouldn't want their Sunday Radio 2 to be just a little less depressing?

teamhurtmore - Member

Prof Riddell says the abolition of tuition fees has had no discernible impact on poor Scots’ access to universities

DISCLAIMER: This stuff is ridiculously complicated and counterintuitive because of the way university funding and placement works and the number of simultaneous changes in practice and environment... it's entirely possible some of my comments below will not be correct, but they're based on a pretty good understanding of the facts.

Over the timescale we've seen a substantial increase in the number of applications and acceptances from deprived backgrounds (not specifically low income, the Scottish sector uses a system called SIMD which while pretty flawed in a lot of ways, captures more relevant factors than income alone).

Sadly we've seen a proportional decrease in applications from low income households from the RUK since the increase in fees. This isn't a like-for-like comparison of course but I can categorically say that we believe that the increase in tuition fees has led to a fall in low-income applications from the RUK (*) despite a huge increase in the resource we put into attracting them (literally millions of quid), and that the abolition of fees and other measures in the same timescale has led to an increase in SIMD applications.

(* bearing in mind that there are extra costs for an RUK student studying in Scotland so it might be that many of these students still apply to uni; just not here. Which would be much more positive but still shows a loss of choice and opportunity)

To 2013, the proportion of scottish students from an SIMD40 background increase from 22.5% to 23.2%. That's still a big underrepresentation- equality would be 40%- but a significant improvement. Equality is probably unachievable tbh simply because of the different educational outcomes. That figure also pre-dates the increase in funded places for SIMD students, which I'll discuss in a moment.

Progression is another issue not mentioned; the number of students dropping out of university for financial reasons increased pretty steadily after the rise in tuition fees (again despite significant work to counter it), and fell for scottish students after the abolition. Sadly this gets ignored in most statistics but imo completion is a far more useful measure than enrolment. This stuff is full of hygiene factors and data issues though so probably hard to get really good stats out of it... Applications are a [i]cleaner[/i] measure, just less useful.

The student finance point is an extremely complex one- while central government funding to students has fallen in real terms since the abolition of fees, that's not the whole picture. Bearing in mind above all that the burden of cost on students fell massively.

One thing is, quite simply, most universities now have a stronger income from RUK and international students (despite the Home Office's insane wrecking ball attempts to discourage international students). There's just less need for central government funding to support basic services, and more capacity for the industry to support students rather than the government doing it directly. This stuff changes the whole picture.

The sfc unlocks unscheduled funding for additional places to SIMD students, I believe an extra 700 places last year. I suspect there's other sources of indirect funding via leaps and the like which are missed in a similiar way.

Another big development is the increase in contextual admissions- one of the biggest issues with getting kids from deprived areas into uni is the academic one, the Scottish Government's made some pretty significant moves in encouraging unis to compensate for this. Basically, we now have to take into account that a student from Govan High with B and Cs is a high achiever and probably a better academic performer than a kid from Jordanhill with straight As. That's policy straight from the top, and IMO possibly more important than bags of money. And also, dammit, just the right thing to do whether or not it delivers 700 extra kids in uni.

There's also far more work done with college articulation. I'm not clear if Prof Riddell's report takes this into account, but I don't think it does, it seems her statistics are based on normal applicants not direct. Considering that this is one of the best ways to widen access to university and helps many simd students and mature students, that'd be a big oversight.

I can't comment on college funding in the same way, it's outwith my field. I understand that the recent cuts in fe funding are actually smaller than the savings from the regionalisation of the scottish colleges though. If that's correct then it's an increase in funding to frontline services at the same time as a decrease in the cost to the taxpayer, which is kind of hard to criticise.

What I can say for sure is that fe in Scotland has changed a lot over the last few years so simple comparison of numbers isn't going to be useful.

Oh, just to add (because obviously that post wasn't long enough). I do think Scotland like the UK in general has the balance of FE and HE fundamentall wrong. But I don't think there's any political will anywhere in the UK to do anything about that, and frankly it'd be political suicide for the scottish government to rebalance education spending towards fe colleges, it'll always be painted as taking away opportunity. But also, the UK outwith education also undervalues fe, so it'd take a lot more than funding to fix this, we need better colleges, more college places, possibly better college courses, and we need employers and applicants and parents to take colleges more seriously.

The recent changes in fe have been important though. My gut feeling is that we're basically better at it than the rest of the UK though, the SQA kicks ass at fe, a curiously unsung scottish triumph that's better known in China than in the UK

Getting close to the big day. Can I just say that I am getting nostalgic so THM, could you just type " the truth is out there." one last time for Ben and I? It is afterwards that will be interesting,the SNP will have to be used by Labour to get policy through..without looking like they are used by labour...It could also be amusing watching Cameron refuse to leave if he is within 15 seats of Labour! #SNPforCroydon. Those stats surprised me,I always thought it was a fairly affluent place. Oh and NW; I do a bit of work for the SQA,they sell their products to over 40 different countries...I am unimpressed with this and feel a verification team should be dispatched from the "old country" to ensure standards are being met in say,New Zealand?

Well I'm happy to not be there at the moment. Sounds like every outcome will disappoint a lot of people (being happy to not have a party in power doesn't sound like a great outcome)
Con/Lab both want to push for complete victory, the rest want to declare their can't do withouts, will be interesting to see what actually makes it to policy & is implemented.

Ed's stone looks like a great wish list
[img] [/img]
1) Whatever he wants to define that as
2) one pound a year better off?
3) How much time?
4) Controls? Like a count at the gate?
etc etc.

Ed's obelisk aside, he's hated by Rupert Murdoch and the Daily Mail, so he's probably alright

kimbers - Member
Ed's obelisk aside, he's hated by Rupert Murdoch and the Daily Mail, so he's probably alright

It is almost a redeeming feature.

But his poor bacon roll eating technique disqualifies him from SS events, and that's too much to overlook. 🙂

Shocking stats Ernie

Indeed they are THM. Also shocking is George Osborne's claim that Croydon is one of the "most-prosperous communities in London". If this is so what does it say about the rest of London?

.

SNP leaders say that because the 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Act makes it very difficult to dissolve parliament, voting down a budget would not be a fatal blow for a minority Labour government but would merely force it to come back with revised proposals.

No it wouldn't be a fatal blow for a minority Labour government, which means that beyond a vote of no confidence a general election can't be forced. But the government can resign, which could be a very useful tactic for Miliband.

[i]Under the FTPA the only circumstances in which a Government falls would be if (a) they resigned – unlikely but not impossible or (b) the following is passed by a majority in the House of Commons

“That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government”.

Nothing else forces a Government out of office – not defeat on a Queen’s Speech, a Budget, a key piece of legislation, a vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, nothing.

Of course there may be political circumstances where a Government chooses to take such a defeat seriously and resigns.[/i]

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/under-the-fixed-term-parliaments-act-a-minority-government-doesnt-need-a-confidence-and-supply-arrangement-to-be-able-to-govern/

duckman - Member

Oh and NW; I do a bit of work for the SQA,they sell their products to over 40 different countries...I am unimpressed with this and feel a verification team should be dispatched from the "old country" to ensure standards are being met in say,New Zealand?

Good idea. Perhaps a totally independent representative from a partner institution should accommpany you.

Northwind - Member

duckman - Member

Oh and NW; I do a bit of work for the SQA,they sell their products to over 40 different countries...I am unimpressed with this and feel a verification team should be dispatched from the "old country" to ensure standards are being met in say,New Zealand?

Good idea. Perhaps a totally independent representative from a partner institution should accommpany you.

And someone who can understand your accents and translate for the poor New Zealanders 😉

the SNP as they can be totally trusted to pursue an agenda which furthers their fundamental aim to see an independent Acotland at all costs no matter how great to the UK or to Scotland. You certain,y know exactly what you'll get with the SNP it's just not what they tell you.

As for at all costs [ presumably that would include armed insurrections, direct actions and terrorism] that is just scaremongering BS of the lowest order. As I said the ones who claim the SNP hate the english write pish like this , about the SNP, to "explain" how much they hate the english and cannot be trusted.

Oh the irony.

FWIW the easiest way for the SNP to show to Scotland that Westminster does not work/defeat it from the inside is for them is to win the UK election with a landslide and then have all the rUK parties refuse to work with them and therefore listen to the Scottish voice within the UK whilst demonising the legitimate voice of the people.
Not even THM or yourself could sell the "better together" lie under those circumstances as better together literally means ignored and excluded.

You have to work with them if you want to preserve the Union and show it can work

CONTROLS ON IMMIGRATION

Interesting comments from Miliband this morning:

"I want to put a Labour Queen’s speech in front of the Commons and win a Labour majority for that speech. What the SNP does or any other MP elected to the House of Commons is a matter for them"

I read that as whilst he won't do deals with the SNP, he'll still seek to govern as a minority and challenge them to vote him down. I guess this means the manoeuvring in the event of a hung parliament is now fully underway.

I read that as whilst he won't do deals with the SNP, he'll still seek to govern as a minority and challenge them to vote him down.

was also a bit bonkers as we all know he wont win a majority and he will need to speak to them to get support

Why both the "main" parties are acting as if they can win a majority is lost on me.
Would be more honest if we know what and who they plan to work with [ though we can work it out ourselves.

Interesting observations NW thanks. Good that someone in education is talking sense!

duckman - Member
Getting close to the big day. Can I just say that I am getting nostalgic so THM, could you just type " the truth is out there." one last time for Ben and I?

Why not - I could do it for the first and last time even. You are a legend in terms of misquoting.

Dazh - I think you will find that Burnham is one of the few that is being straight. They will do deals if they need to. Power is what matters and burger the consequences. You can always go to the EU gravy train afterwards if it doesn't work out.

Epic, glad we don't have too many like these either

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-scotland-32581803

Bleedin'ell Jim Murphy's missus don't look like the sort of person you'd want to upset

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She bears a canny resemblance to Anne Robinson, only a little more scarey.

😀 😀

BTW I particularly liked this picture in your link THM

[img] [/img]

If there's one thing I've learnt today it's that not all Scots have the same shaped head.

Just one more comment on education funding and politics, and how things spill over.

A huge amount of education funding comes from international students, and the Tories have proved themselves completely unfit on this- the Home Office takes every step possible to make it harder and more expensive for foreign students to study here. Almost every policy announcement contains some terrible bullshit that causes universities to howl with pain. Visa fees are up. Converting from one type of visa to another? Can't do that in the UK, you have to go home to apply then come back. Let's reduce the number of accepted english language qualifications so much that some students simply can't get to an approved testing centre (and let's do it so fast and so unexpectedly that there's no way to mitigate the damage). Let's make visas slower, ATAS slower, let's make them leave faster after they graduate, lets make police registration harder. Lets just make this a bad place to study.

And in the time it took you to read that, fees went up again. Just utter madness, designed purely to placate the anti-immigration crowd. Because the truth is, to significantly cut UK immigration you have to cut student immigration, they're the single biggest source. Of course they'll never admit it- that's why it comes through in 50 different memos and announcements that mean nothing to the general public

(cynics, which by now should be absolutely everyone, might also observe that since most students leave the country at the end of their courses, reducing immigration today reduces emigration in a few years, it's rubberbanded. If the Tories aren't in power, brace yourself for SHOCK DECREASE IN FOREIGNERS LEAVING THE UK and how Labour are soft on immigration)

Where is Miliband on this? Nowhere? That's astonishing!

The SNP seem to be the only major party willing to say "Immigrants can be great. Cutting student immigration is madness. Let's do something better, and continue to improve the reputation of our country and our education system, increase UK influence around the world, and coincidentally make a bag of money off it." Universities Scotland estimates the economic benefit in Scotland alone at about £750 million per year of which £337 million goes directly to the universities.

Hands up who wants to increase the education budget by 15% to compensate for the loss?

It was interesting to see Murphy and co. at the receiving end of the sort of treatment the other right wing parties have often received in Scotland. He of course blamed it all on an SNP plot however it looks like it might well have been disaffected ex-Labour voters more than anything else.

I suspect the SNP would have rather let him talk, as that appears to have been a vote-winner for them so far.

Agree with sentiments (and interesting post thx) but discriminate against Johnny Foreigner??? Why not allow education to price itself properly in the first place.

Separate point:

Two years ago we were told not to bother applying to Edinburgh as they were PERCEIVED to be discriminating against the sassanachs. Doh, on the contrary they gave some great offers as they wanted the fees!?!?

I was just thinking, is it not about time for Jim to get hit with an egg again? Still his only political achievement. Sadly inevitable that despite everything to the contrary this protest will be painted as an SNP thing.

teamhurtmore - Member

Two years ago we were told not to bother applying to Edinburgh as they were PERCEIVED to be discriminating against the sassanachs.

I think it's fair to say that was all a load of crap, it's just not how university placement works here- Scottish and RUK students don't really complete directly for places at all. I think a lot of people seized on it as a chance to attack the scottish government to be frank.

Sadly inevitable that despite everything to the contrary this protest will be painted as an SNP thing.

Murphy was definitely taking that route despite the press telling him it didn't look like it was the case. His whole campaign has been about the SNP being bad just because they're the SNP though - he doesn't appear to have another other arguments.

teamhurtmore - Member

Why not - I could do it for the first and last time even. You are a legend in terms of misquoting.

No really,it was when you listed the paper on defence. Strange how you went quiet when Ben mentioned twitter being the current first line of defence. Stick to calling Scots "sweatys"..or "humour" as you call it on the rugby thread. Or am I misquoting you? This election must be a very harrowing experience for you,Salmond coming down to Westminster #prayforTHM

Northwind,Gordiemor; in my experience,that is pretty much how the SQA works,no point in one person going on a jolly when 3 can.

So what is next for Murphy? He is presiding over the death of the labour party and may even lose his seat,he has a year; it would be a right shame if he had to become a party list MP at the Scottish elections next year a la Davidson.

Stick to calling Scots "sweatys"..or "humour" as you call it on the rugby thread. Or am I misquoting you?

You mean like using the term sweaty here ?

teamhurtmore - Member

And then check education spending....all those things that the LW is suppose to treasure. No, really.

Folk need to have their eyes open (and their ears closed to the BS) when they go to vote.

Rhetoric and reality are uncomfortable in this election. No wonder it's getting so, so sweaty.

Posted 1 day ago

Oh come on, it's just a coincidence that THM said "No wonder it's getting so, so sweaty" when the topic being discussed was Scotland.

It's the sort of innocent thing which Jeremy Clarkson could easily have said.

Ducks, I am immune to your misquoting by now - doesn't get me sweaty at all.

Cross post - FFS Scotland does not have a monopoly on the word sweaty. As made clear before it means close/exciting/ nerve racking etc. Don't hijack it for your own purposes, that's a slippery slope.

He of course blamed it all on an SNP plot however it looks like it might well have been disaffected ex-Labour voters more than anything else.

That guy shouting in Jim Murphys face is an anti-austerity campaigner and not officially sanctioned by the SNP at all....

[img] [/img]

I think it's fair to say that was all a load of crap,

Certainly how it turned out. It was crap advice especially as grades were competitive that year v-a-v English ones

it's just not how university placement works here- Scottish and RUK students don't really complete directly for places at all. I think a lot of people seized on it as a chance to attack the scottish government to be frank.

Nowt to do with that. Advice from careers department.

THM looking confused when it's suggested that he deliberately uses the term "sweaty" to ridicule Scots.

[img] [/img]

Stay on topic Ernie, stay on topic.