Echo chamber?

Ooh. Good point. Does anyone frequent DartBoardWorld? I’d love to hear their opinions about cyclists 🤣

Too subtle for me today - why darts and their opinions on cyclists?

I thought darts fans seemed like a good bunch : )

Don't think I'd call it an echo chamber - there is a fairly broad range of experiences and knowledge from various posters.

The forums' greatest strength is posting a thread asking for advice about the most obscure thing and being safe in the knowledge there will be some lived experience and reasonable guidance forthcoming.

That said, it's biggest failing is the usual handful of posters who, once they get involved in a thread, you know it's ran it's course and from then on out it's just pointless bickering, point scoring and bored blokes (I presume) trying to win at the internet.

“woke” I’m hazier on. What’s it mean?

It means "being aware of racism."

Quite how it's supposed to be an insult I'm not sure, but here we are.

I’d be happy for you to expand on what you see as the positives for the country from the past 12 years of Conservative government, and why I should vote for Rishi Sunak in the next General Election.

Perfect example of what I’m talking about.

You’re not interested in a discussion. You’re not interested in my views. It’s evident from the way you posed your question that you’re simply seeking an argument.

I have no interest in discussing my political views here as I’ve already stated. I have my views, I’m comfortable with them. Other people have theirs, that’s their right and privilege. I’m not interested in trying to convert people and even if I was, this thread isn’t the place for it.

An echo chamber is a closed system, it seeks to actively expel dissent.

Well, it's not "the management"/STW doing it, and there's obviously no written official policy, but that is effectively exactly what happened/happens.

I don’t think it’s a true echo chamber. The “normal” threads are generally very good - informative, balanced, etc. Anything that turns political or ideological becomes like an echo chamber because, as others mentioned above, once the shouty bunch start any attempt to take part and offer a different perspective stops being enjoyable very quickly.

I have a limited amount of time in my day to visit places like STW so really don’t want to end up arguing with people when I am here. Unfortunately it seems to be getting harder to avoid those threads so I’ve found myself spending less and less time here over the last few months. I’m sure others are doing the same, so if it’s not an echo chamber here yet, it soon will be.

It is not technically an echo chamber but it does have a lot of people with similar thinking around a lot of areas. They still can't agree on anything but that is just the sport of the debate and on reality they are all pretty aligned.
When someone comes along who is of opposiye thinking they get grilled as expected and from what I see don't/can't answer anything asked of them so go away.

The obvious trolls, such as person a few posts up, will make one comment and then never participate after that but they tend to get ignored.

Maybe MTB/cycling is just something that attracts a certain bias just like say a car forum like Pistonheads is the opposite and based on that I am glad I am more interested in cycling...

People with very strong convictions about what they are stating can appear to be be very judgemental to those of us who are more on the woolly side. It's difficult enough with even language being against us! #preyforwolves

I don’t think it’s a true echo chamber. The “normal” threads are generally very good – informative, balanced, etc. Anything that turns political or ideological becomes like an echo chamber because, as others mentioned above, once the shouty bunch start any attempt to take part and offer a different perspective stops being enjoyable very quickly.

Agree with this. It doesn't make me spend less time on STW but it does make me avoid the political threads.

STW leans (quite heavily) towards a sort of centre-left, progressive, middle-aged, higher-taxrate, male demographic. I don't think this (in and of itself) makes it an echo chamber, but such a slant can sometimes make it harder for other voices to break through.

@jameso

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/a-truly-great-moment-in-sport-darts-content/

All worlds have variance but I don't think this one is massively diverse.

I don't see much volume of words defending Tory mantra. Who here would stand up and say they were happy to have Johnson as PM now or at any time in the past? That makes 'us' counter to the voting public in 2019?

I don't see much pro Trump or in fact republican posting yet they are a significant minority in the states.

I don't see much pro Brexit yet 52% of the UK voted for it.

More nuanced but I'd say more Scotland residents here profess independence views than is the Scottish current opinion poll average (though I'd say that that probably is quite a reasonable correlation to behaviour in the wider world too - I'm just surprised in the anonymity of a forum it is not more balanced).

I don't see too many in favour of the Rwanda immigration solution but it will be far more popular in the population in general.

I don't see many who profess to buying the Daily Mail and enjoying their editorials (beyond being a satirical read)

Most folk are by definition pro cycling infrastructure being improved.

And as I said in the Tate thread, for the purpose I frequent the place that's alright with me. I have my views challenged elsewhere. Sometimes a comfort blanket of relative sanity is nice to have. My resolutions for 2023 did involve being more circumspect about which threads to engage in or even open here - 6 days in I fear I might need to double down on that. The single worst part of conventional news outputs for me are the voxpop sections - Any answers on R4 is the worst bit of radio of the week. Any questions however is excellent. I want the balanced opinions of experts and leaders informing and challenging my views not Kevin from Croydon who knows as little as I do. Political threads (or those that divert into politics) have a smell of Voxpops at times.

An echo chamber is the result of surrounding yourself with likeminded people who all generally agree with your position. It echoes your own views thus reinforcing the belief that you are right. Social media perpetuates that scenario by using algos to connect you with likeminded people. The only algo here is the one that puts the most engaged topics to the top of the page. But the fact that there is disagreement and 'debate' on here kind of counters the echo chamber argument - demographics of mountain bikers aside.

Perfect example of what I’m talking about.

You’re not interested in a discussion. You’re not interested in my views. It’s evident from the way you posed your question that you’re simply seeking an argument.

I have no interest in discussing my political views here as I’ve already stated. I have my views, I’m comfortable with them. Other people have theirs, that’s their right and privilege. I’m not interested in trying to convert people and even if I was, this thread isn’t the place for it.

I wasn't meaning it to sound that way at all.

There are still millions of people who support the Conservatives and will be voting for Sunak when the time comes.

Many of them must have genuine reasons for doing so and think certain aspects have gone well, and also will trust the Conservatives for another term.

You seem to be identifying as such a person so I merely said I would be interested to hear your views, I have no real desire to argue.

If you don't want to expand in this environment them fair enough.

STW – Same Ten ****? : )

Hahaha. It does feel like that sometimes, and while I probably agree with some of the more prolific posters on the politics side of things, they still spoil it for everyone else.

On a semi-related note, I do think there's been a bit of an improvement on the forum in the last year or so. It had become too stale and passive aggressive (or just aggressive), with a fall-off in quality of posts on the bike side. Some good contributors have returned/emerged again now though.

Also, don't fall in to the trap of thinking the posts on the forum (any forum) are the representative views of the community. There's a rule of 90/9/1 for almost all communities which translates to only 1% of a community ever STARTING a conversation. Maybe 9% of the community will ENGAGE with a topic ie. by replying to a post. But the majority 90% of any community will never do either. The term Lurker is used but I rather think that's a bit disingenuous. The fact is most people don't speak and they are fine with that. They observe - but they keep coming back and that makes them a part of the community.

The people who post on forums are a small subset of the population and really on representative of the set of people who post on forums. They are not necessarily representative of the community. For us that post regularly we think it's easy and often don't understand why most people don't 'join in'. But putting your voice out there on a forum is a very public thing to do and it comes with a lot of risks. Just like many of us would balk at the thought of standing up in front of an audience and speaking, it's not a dissimilar situation to posting on a public forum. It's actually quite a big deal to have your voice heard and that's why only 1% of people start conversations within a community.

I don’t think it’s a true echo chamber. The “normal” threads are generally very good – informative, balanced, etc. Anything that turns political or ideological becomes like an echo chamber because, as others mentioned above, once the shouty bunch start any attempt to take part and offer a different perspective stops being enjoyable very quickly.

This is probably pretty true too. Some sort of mechanism where members could only post say twice untill X other posters had had their say would be impossible to manage I guess but would stop the dominance some like to have. It might also make people think more carefully about what they wanted to say rather than spew volumes. It might not be an attempt to 'win' but at the other end of the internet it certain can feel like it.

I used to think I was quite a liberal, pro-EU, Guardian-reading lefty, but according to 'the gang' who assemble on the political threads I'm actually a Tory and now I find I'm apparently a brexiteer too.

Hey ho

There is one essential rule:

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But they do regularly break out en masse onto other threads and assemble to shout down anyone who dares disagree with their worldview

Lolz, so we have left wing posters claiming it’s a (centre) right wing forum, and right wing posters claiming it’s a lefty echo chamber.

Nothing else to say on that…

I wasn’t meaning it to sound that way at all.

@dangerousbeans I ran your comment through the ChatGPT AI but asked it to make it less passive-aggressive. There was a subtle but definite tonal change. Interesting. Maybe the STW tech bods should just run everything through that by default, would make the place a bit friendlier 😂 (Not having a go, just been using ChatGPT a lot recently, I find it really fascinating 😃)

"I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the positive aspects of the past 12 years of Conservative government and how you believe Rishi Sunak would benefit the country in the next General Election."

Ooh. Good point. Does anyone frequent DartBoardWorld? I’d love to hear their opinions about cyclists 🤣

They probably hate us, like everyone else.

Very anti-Brexit, very anti-Tory, very pro-vax, very pro Covid measures.

It's disappointing to me that being pro-vaccination is seen as a political stance these days. Can't I be pro-reduce-needless-child-deaths-from-preventable-diseases without being suborned into some political group?

I ran your comment through ChatGPT but asked it to make it less passive-aggressive. There was a subtle but definite tonal change. Interesting. Maybe the STW tech bods should just run everything through that by default, would make the place a bit friendlier

I struggle with the typed word, getting stuff over, to the extent that I make demands on my colleagues to proof read my letters.

I'm not very tech savvy either but assume ChatHBT is some sort of program.

Out IT certainly wouldn't let us put it on our laptops; we can't even plug a mobile phone in to charge.

Lolz, so we have left wing posters claiming it’s a (centre) right wing forum, and right wing posters claiming it’s a lefty echo chamber.

STW has that in common with the BBC.

I would now consider folk like rone, Dazh and Binners as brexiteers as they have accepted

That doesn't make you a Brexiteer, there's a fair bit of nuance going on in such debates.

I think there's much better targets for improving society would be my standpoint. However a Tory brexit was always going to be mess.

I think all 3 of us voted remain. That would be your getting off point.

@scotroutes I saw that elsewhere, amazing.
Tribal I suppose like any 1 side vs the other sport can be, but darts or table tennis fans weren't what I had in mind. I was thinking of football as an opposite to cycling, as something that's had a history of attracting a bit more than the average share of RWers. Lazy example though I'm sure as is cycling being a leftie thing.

I don't think it is too echo chambery as such, I think there's just a small handful of people who get upset or heated very quickly at the notion of someone holding a different viewpoint to theirs.

You are allowed to hold an opposing view to someone without having to explain yourself every time you express it, except that isn't always the case on here where you're jumped on an asked to justify your position.

If you don't take it any more seriously than it should be for an internet forum, there's no reason why you should have a bad time here. Just scroll past someone's name if you find yourself getting upset at their views.

used to think I was quite a liberal, pro-EU, Guardian-reading lefty, but according to ‘the gang’ who assemble on the political threads I’m actually a Tory and now I find I’m apparently a brexiteer too.

Hey ho

There is one essential rule:

You were doing so well until that one.

And you highlight the bigger problem(ish) to me which is the way a thread can be policed because you don't like what's being said mostly in a political context. That's what mods are for.

Why is it there's a group of us who are called the noisy ones?

Seems to me the noisy ones hold the consensus.

Ultimately it's pretty easy not to care either way.

It means “being aware of racism.”

Quite how it’s supposed to be an insult I’m not sure, but here we are.

It seems to have taken on a generic meaning now to encompass all things considered 'lefty'.

It seems to have taken on a generic meaning now to encompass all things considered ‘lefty’.

It's very true. Most values I see misconstrued as 'left' these days are pro-market, I'm not sure the two go together.

But then political views are elastic.

Just like life, STW has a significant proportion of folk who don't know how to disagree with a different opinion without taking it personally and getting upset about it.

We ofter hear comment about the same few who turn up and ruin threads. Do they know they are doing it? Anyone care to name them?

I think STW is centre left, as am i, but i also think we should make a distinction between those who are centre right (and worth engaging with to debate and inform) and those who are loony right / bigoted / racist / homophobic / trump / conspiracy / anti vax types.

Woke means aware of all forms of prejudice and discrimination. Its not just racism.

But i agree, quite how this is now an insult is beyond me, the opposite being to be unaware and asleep???

We ofter hear comment about the same few who turn up and ruin threads. Do they know they are doing it? Anyone care to name them?

I've absolutely no idea how you ruin a thread with a set of opposing arguments or broader analysis.

Hey ho.

There is a lot of insults thrown about which IMO is the end of a debate. Xyz is a *, Tories are *, Brexit voters are stupid.

It’s pretty immature imo

I have to agree with this. I get the reasons why this government is so despised, but the casual abuse and pile ons for anyone who might want to support the government position is disappointing - it either scares off anyone or immediately pushes things to the abuse. And that makes it a centre/left echo chamber.

I'm not sure it's intended, but it's how it appears.

Luckily, the debate and infighting among the left wingers provides a distraction

To go back to the politics and left right

Yes the politics thread are dominated by those basically leftish it UK terms ( which includes what would be the centre right in the rest of europe and communist / liberal in the US)  But I don't see anything of the left in the current labour party.  Its become a centre right party

I meant more in the general tone where what to me is a centre right view ( in the european context) is considered the norm.  You are poor unless you earn over £60 000 pa etc.  Perhaps cozy middle class might be more accurate?  Away from the politics thread I see what is to me a right wing view as the consensus

I’ve absolutely no idea how you ruin a thread with a set of opposing arguments or broader analysis.

Really?  Both you and I are guilty of this but I often only see it in retrospect.  Battering away making the same point repeatedly and appearing to refuse to listen to the alternatives

Maybe those that find this a left wing echo chamber might consider that possibly it's just a reflection of broader society where recent polling of voting intention amongst 18-35 year olds has hit a historic low of just 2% support for the Tories for instance. Thank god.

it either scares off anyone or immediately pushes things to the abuse. And that makes it a centre/left echo chamber.

A big part of the problem is its very difficult to provide a factual basis for a feeling, explaining why you're right/left leaning to a non like minded crowd is like trying to explain why you're a dog person to a cat person or why you love your partner but not your audiences. It's incredibly difficult to do, even in person let alone with all the nuance of text. Especially when the person sat opposite genuinely thinks you're wrong.
Add to that that a post to actually explain my views on Brexit would be pages long and it's not going to work, so you give a precis of your opinions and then get told you need to prove them as if an opinion is the area of a square or something that has an empirical answer.

So you give up, because clearly you're on a hiding to nothing.

A huge variety of views…..

Maybe, but not when it comes to politics.

+1

Very narrow political spectrum on here, which is probably why I like it!

Really? Both you and I are guilty of this but I often only see it in retrospect. Battering away making the same point repeatedly and appearing to refuse to listen to the alternatives

My God, you're almost confessing to being vaguely self-aware...

Are you feeling OK? Need a lie down?

😉

I've just had a nap ta 🙂

and then get told you need to prove them

Yes, when this starts it gets old very quickly. The request to do so is always so that the requestor can try and unpick it with countless counter argument "links" that no one ever reads. You could be a flat earther and provide countless links to evidence and the debate would still go nowhere.