Why should anyone care what someone else chooses to ride?
pick a side and be a dick about it…
See politics, religion, sport, etc etc.
Yes you can.. they you can wait at the top whilst they rest… then the next hill and the one after etc. and on the 10th or 20th climb the eBiker is still getting assistance but the real biker is knackered…
Swap the eBiker for me on a regular mountain bike, when I tried riding with a group, they’d all wait at the top for me, once I got there, it’d be “right, everyone ready? Off we go.” With zero chance for me to catch my breath, grab a drink or anything. I stopped riding with a group after that, I can’t deal with that sort of attitude.
Haven’t ridden for years, though, too afraid to in case I come off again and do further damage to my knee.
What's with all the shade being lobbed at Steve Jones?
Just interested
He always seems alrightish when I've watched something on EMBN (which is rarely)
These e-bike things. They have a variable throttle, yes? It’s not just on or off?
As previously explained its not a throttle, but % of assistance.
Can only speak for what I know about my own(Bosch Performance CX G4)
It has 4 levels.
1. Eco. 60% input, so your effort is multiplied by about 1/2
2. Tour 140%
3. EMTB basically an automatic gearbox. Ranges from 'tour' at 140% to 'Turbo' at 340% depends on the effort youre putting in. So on a hill, it would increase from Tour to Turbo, then when it flattens out again, that assistance level would drop back to Tour.
4. Turbo 340%
Personally I use turbo only. Its a bit addictive especially if like myself you have health probs. So on turbo, for each turn of the cranks, the motor makes it the equivalent of 3 1/2 turns
So if someone wants to as said stay with the noon Eebs, they can select eco, which is a little bit of help, but in reality as the bike itself usually weighs about 50lbs, or approximately twice that of the non eeb, it should cancel iot out and make it the equivilent of being the same same non eeb riders*
*However, due to drag from the internal cogs etc, something like Tour would probably be closer.
That make sense to anyone ?.
I think with some of the motor types, you can adjust each level via an app. So you could change Eco from 60% to100% or Tour from 140% to 220% and so on.
r for me on a regular mountain bike, when I tried riding with a group, they’d all wait at the top for me, once I got there, it’d be “right, everyone ready? Off we go.” With zero chance for me to catch my breath, grab a drink or anything. I stopped riding with a group after that, I can’t deal with that sort of attitude.
It’s sad to read things like this, because it is really really hard to manage.
In the last week:
I’ve probably been the fastest/second fastest on a ride (depending on how you score the guy on a single speed because he’s clearly better than the rest of us)
And I’ve been the very obvious slowest.
Both up and down.
People will ride at different speeds climbing and descending, no issue at all with waiting for people to catch up, and I hope waiting for me hasn’t annoyed anyone else.
Some people will be running themselves to exhaustion and need a break, others will be happy (and prefer) with the group getting rolling again just as they get there.
Probably more of an issue the smaller your hills are, as there are going to be more regroup points, and more of a desire to push yourself to a sprint rather than a marathon.
one of the group said some really nasty stuff about ebikes and ebikers.
What nasty things did they say about eBikes?
it’d be “right, everyone ready? Off we go.”
Generally I've found that people are cool with "actually, could I have a few minutes?"
@dyna-ti Eco definitely makes the ride easier going than on a normal bike.
I know this because I cleaned the climb from slippery stones up over cut gate in eco. I did this whilst pretty unfit due to a health scare.
In past years when I was at my fittest and lightest I only nearly managed it once on a normal bike.
Similar trail conditions. Only explanation is the assistance in eco.
So if someone wants to as said stay with the noon Eebs, they can select eco, which is a little bit of help, but in reality as the bike itself usually weighs about 50lbs, or approximately twice that of the non eeb, it should cancel iot out and make it the equivilent of being the same same non eeb riders*
*However, due to drag from the internal cogs etc, something like Tour would probably be closer.
Suggesting that eco mode on an ebike might be harder than being on a bike stretches belief a little bit.
1. Eco. 60% input, so your effort is multiplied by about 1/2
2. Tour 140%
3. EMTB basically an automatic gearbox. Ranges from ‘tour’ at 140% to ‘Turbo’ at 340% depends on the effort youre putting in. So on a hill, it would increase from Tour to Turbo, then when it flattens out again, that assistance level would drop back to Tour.
4. Turbo 340%
Erm - isn't that 60% input meaning the bike is providing more than 50% of the required power? That to me is 100% assist. If I'm putting in 100W and the bike is putting in 100W, then the bike is giving me a 100% boost. Its providing half the required power but is doubling my input...is this wrong?
@Daffy yes incorrect. If you put in 100w bike puts in 60% which is 60w. 100+60=160w total
With Bosch it's a multiplier of what you put in, so at 100W from the rider Eco is an extra 60W and Turbo is 340W.
The feeling while riding in eco is quite subtle. A bit like just you being on top form plus maybe a bit on top of that too.
It's assisting you more than it might feels like, though (IME)
I used to think Eco on the Rail was a waste of time until I bought a KSL...
eBikes are changing the sport (a bit). Not everyone is cool with that.
Devil’s advocate: If I had a group of regular riders, and a couple of hangers-on who turn up only occasionally, but one day the hangers-on come armed with eWeapons and upset the dynamic of my usual rides, fragment the group, change the chat potential etc - I might find that a bit grating.
I’m probably too placid to get irked by these things, but I’m not sure everyone is as agreeable as me. It’s probably better to straight up tell them they’re being annoying rather than deal in backhanded comments, though.
Awesome - thank you, all.
so your effort is multiplied by about 1/2
Isn't that the Battery Dead setting?
It's simplistic, but for a 7% climb, then 200W / 10kg bike results in 11.2km/h and 320W / 20kg gives you 17.1km/h.
I don't think anybody on the planet ever said that anyone with a medical issue of any kind shouldn't ride an ebike.
So anyone posting about that - this thread clearly isn't about you.
If you are out riding with a group of mates who have a pop at you for your ebike, then they clearly don't know anything about you or actively don't like you. If it's strangers? Who cares?!
Suggesting that eco mode on an ebike might be harder than being on a bike stretches belief a little bit.
No, I think you have to take in the weight of an ebike. So work it out for yourself. If my grasp of how it works or relates to a non Ebike weighing 50+lbs is incorrect I look forward to hearing your explanation of what the percentages mean.
Thanks.
It's two posts up
So if someone wants to as said stay with the noon Eebs, they can select eco, which is a little bit of help, but in reality as the bike itself usually weighs about 50lbs, or approximately twice that of the non eeb, it should cancel iot out and make it the equivilent of being the same same non eeb riders*
Sadly that's complete bollocks. A normal fat bloke on a normal bike (100kg + 15kg) working hard at 250W. The same bloke on a 25kg ebike would need to put out a total of 271W to ascend at the same speed. With a 60% assist that's only 170W of leg power. That's a huge amount easier.
Fair enough, whatever you say.
It shouldn't be a surprise that some riders get a bit miffed with some ebikers, when they come out with "we're probably actually working *harder* than you", and then when you back up a counterclaim with numbers you just get met with complete dismissal.
I ride in a mixed group of ebikes and non-e (I'm non-e). They are expensive specialized ebikes too, not that it really matters. We've all been mates for a long time so there's a bit of jokey banter but never anything nasty. The blokes in your group just sound like arseholes, and I'd be riding with people who aren't.
It sounds like a toxic group/place to be honest. I just can’t see the problem with mixed riding - just that the ebikes may have to wait at the top of the hill or stick it in eco and ride up together.
Riding with mates is about riding with mates - not about who rides what and how much it costs.
and then when you back up a counterclaim with numbers you just get met with complete dismissal.
Whilst being a lazy git who cant be arsed to train hard and so am happy being at the back I suspect even I would be a tad miffed at someone going "well its only on eco so really I was riding at least as hard as you".
It does seem a difficult problem to solve unless you are riding in a group which routinely stops for cake/coffee/beer at random and so there is no pressure on anyone.
I can see why a serious racing snake would get a tad annoyed at someone like me cruising alongside them having sacrificed the nth pint for getting up early for a zwift session.
Depends on the type of riding you're doing and whether everyone is aligned.
"Social" rides where no one is trying to get fit and/or trying to squeeze in a ride in a short time slot - mixed abilities/fitness/bike-types shouldn't matter (type 1 ride)
But rides which have particular objectives (eg fitness or training, time-constrained or particularly demanding rides <distance/climbing/duration>) (type 2 ride), then the mixture of riders needs to be more closely aligned and this is where ebikes mixing with non-ebikes may be a problem as there IS a fundamental difference in dynamics. So I can see why a (lone?) ebiker wouldn't be welcomed.
Personally, if it was just type 1 rides or the occasional type 2 ride, I wouldn't be bothered by presence of ebikes BUT I'd not want to regularly do type 2 rides with an ebiker, same as I'd not want to do these types of rides with a non-ebiker who is massively faster or slower than me.
For the record, I find it really irritating if a faster rider sits on my back wheel up technical singletrack climbs I'm trying to clean, whether they are just a lot fitter than me or on an ebike.
For whatever reason, it doesn't irritate me as much if I can hear them suffering as badly as I am! Call that a character flaw if you want...
Like it or not, we'll probably all be on ebikes eventually if we keep riding long enough. I'm looking forward to still being able to ride long into old age with the help of one. Just not quite yet, for various reasons. But I'll be quite grateful that all the people who bought them now have basically helped do the field testing for whatever I end up on in 20-25 years' time.
Also, when riding with the family, a friend with an ebike and a towheee can keep everyone moving, even when they're tired, and that's cool.
My main complaint about ebikes is that very few of them use their power to run margherita makers, and riding is thirsty work.
I think the final thing is probably bound to my local trails, which are basically short, sharpish climbs and short descents. As and when I ride in a group with ebikes, they're often able to do another trail in the time it takes to winch our socially-paced analogue group up to the top. That means both groups have to make compromises, which is a shame, as it's often quite fun riding with lots of different people. But we had that with singlespeeds not so long ago, too: I still occasionally go out on one to remind myself of how nailed my knees are, and zooming off up the climbs because I have no choice in my gear selection is pretty antisocial.
What was that Surly blog? This one, maybe? Yeah. https://surlybikes.com/blog/some_answers_to_just_about_any_bike_forum_post_ive_ever_read
Like it or not, we’ll probably all be on ebikes eventually if we keep riding long enough.
I think I hate this sentiment most of all, as if they're inevitable for everybody.
Plenty of people have managed to keep riding without battery assistance. I hope to be one of them.
Like it or not, we’ll probably all be on ebikes eventually if we keep riding long enough.
I think I hate this sentiment most of all, as if they’re inevitable for everybody
You seem to have contacted on the negative side of this and ignored the positive.
I’m looking forward to still being able to ride long into old age with the help of one
Er, no? I mean, you're missing the point.
I acknowledge that they're great for people who would otherwise be unable to ride.
I don't believe they're inevitable for all people though, and I dislike that that's often trotted out as common wisdom.
use their power to run margherita makers
Were might one find one of these devices?
Asking for a friend.
Oh good it’s still going. I’m with aidy on this one. If it came to the point where it was eBike or give up riding I’m not sure where I would land. The expense is a big blocker, also the extra environmental impact that comes with batteries and disposal. I actually enjoy the physical exertion aspect of cycling too.
Christ! I still ride a HT partly due to the lack of faff and fewer things to go wrong. An eBike, for me personally, just seems to have more downsides than up. More power (ha!) to anyone that uses them though. No hate here. Plus they’re ****ing ugly things and I’m that sad when it comes to aesthetics.
100% with @Aidy
The idea that old age = infirmity is ingrained into a lot of people, but it's bunkum. Use it, consistently, or lose it.
If you've lost it, and you're 70 years old, get back on the weights. You can build muscle mass back. Just takes a little longer.
If it came to the point where it was eBike or give up riding I’m not sure where I would land.
Interesting test thought. I'd 100% take the e-bike, easy answer. I guess that makes me a true rider? No way I'd stop rolling on 2 wheels just because I need some help up the hills. I intend to be the oldest singlespeeder in the 5 valleys one day and I'll quite happily be the oldest on the highway and byways on a pedelec one day after that.
If you’ve lost it, and you’re 70 years old, get back on the weights. You can build muscle mass back. Just takes a little longer.
"What is your malfunction?"
. I actually enjoy the physical exertion aspect of cycling too.
You hear this kind of thing a lot, but you know you can still absolutely destroy yourself on an ebike,you'll just be going a lot faster than you would at the same effort on a normal bike.
What an ebike gives you is the option to be super lazy, whereas on a normal bike you usually don't have that option.but you don't have to be super lazy on an ebike
The eBike hating is ridiculous. The only consideration when my mate’s are planning a ride without me on my Levo, is hike-a-bike. No no no. Although it has happened, and sometimes dose. Or weather or not to bring a towie. Everyone took the piss at first, but the majority have got eebs or are considering one. Getting a face on because of what Someone else is riding is a poor reflection on yourself
“What an ebike gives you is the option to be super lazy!
Because the singlespeed is hard, you will not like it. But the more you hate it, the more you will learn. It is hard but it is fair!
God has a hard-on for singlespeeders because we kill every hill we see! He plays His games, we play ours!”
(no pisstaking intended and clearly I have zero to contribute to the discussion at this stage)
Just an observation but there do seem to be some ex bunters that shout very loudly about how much they dislike ebikes.
Is it like an ex smoker thing😉
As for giving up riding rather than eeb it. That's just ****ing weird.
Not weird just likely unaffordable and comes with extra environmental concerns. Also extra stuff to go wrong.
You hear this kind of thing a lot, but you know you can still absolutely destroy yourself on an ebike,you’ll just be going a lot faster than you would at the same effort on a normal bike.
Of course I know that but it simply doesn’t appeal. Shocking I know. Nothing against e-bikes or the people that ride them. Just not for me. It’s a step away from what cycling is for me personally. I’d have no issue riding with people on them, that is weird behaviour.
But give up riding. Shudders.
Indeed. Ive been riding 30 years, never been the fittest. Good shape though compared to my none cycling peers. Now I can ride and keep up with my super fit mates ( won the Sam haughtiness challenge, Fred whitton challenge types) and they get the miles in at pace. Or they get a tow, and don’t have to open gates. It’s all shits and giggles, dicking about on bikes
