A replacement battery for a 2017 Turbo Levo retails for a cool £730, or at least it did last year.
Shit the bed!
I suspect that in the longer term, you’ll get small businesses capable of refurbishing some battery packs by fitting new cells / fixing circuit boards, but basically no, batteries are very much not standardised.
It's plausible. A mate of mine home-converted a bike to an e-bike, it's powered by cells recovered from failed laptop batteries. Seems it's quite common for a battery to die due to one cell failing with the rest being fine, we toss out a lot of good cells. There's a cottage industry to be had there for sure, if you can get inside the bastard things non-destructively.
Shit the bed!
I've been considering a range extender (£600, was £450 before the world had a meltdown) for my '19 Kenevo, but then thought should I just get an extra battery for when my current one craps out
£840
I bought the bike knowing it would need money along the way, but how long will that particular battery be available for?
You were called out about this ‘mistruth’ before. Trek have a transferable warranty on their bikes, as do Specialized on both their Brose & Mahle equipped bikes.
Which part of “motor and battery” are you missing ? You seem to be reading want you want it to say .. not what the warranty says
Yes the frame is transferable but it’s of no use without a motor
To take your first ..
Subsequent Ownership
Subsequent owners (second or later) are entitled to a 3-year warranty from the date of purchase from the retailer on the Trek frame and Trek fork. This does not include items such as wheels, suspension forks, drive train components etc. Proof of original purchase is required.
https://www.trekbikes.com/gb/en_GB/warranty_policy/
Which part of “motor and battery” are you missing ? You seem to be reading want you want it to say .. not what the warranty says
Yes the frame is transferable but it’s of no use without a motor
Have you tried to warranty a Trek ebike that is less than 2 years old for a motor or battery issue?
Because I have.
I note you have also declined to comment on Specialized’s transferable warranty…
Cougar
It’s plausible. A mate of mine home-converted a bike to an e-bike, it’s powered by cells recovered from failed laptop batteries. Seems it’s quite common for a battery to die due to one cell failing with the rest being fine, we toss out a lot of good cells. There’s a cottage industry to be had there for sure, if you can get inside the bastard things non-destructively
It’s not simply physical protection but anti tamper software as well on the “brand name motors” and the battery needs to handshake with the motor controller
I was looking into this before getting a used battery as I can’t read battery health from the display or official user app.. and using a 3rd party app to read has been reported to invalidate warranty on the motor**
https://www.electricbikebatteryrepairs.co.uk/e-bike-battery-types-we-cannot-re-cell/
Currently we are unable to take e-bike battery types from Kalkhoff, Yamaha, Transx/Raleigh,GTech,Bosch,Shimano,Haibike,Derby,Kalkhoff or Powabyke batteries.
I note you have also declined to comment on Specialized’s transferable warranty…
I’m not playing at you make something up and I have to fo find it
Post the warranty in full
Have you tried to warranty a Trek ebike that is less than 2 years old for a motor or battery issue?
Because I have.
One minute you’re talking transferable now you’re saying in warranty ?
Do you sell used cars for a living or just work in a job where misleading is paid for like marketing ??
Subsequent Owners (second or later) are covered by a <b>two year warranty</b> from date of original retail purchase by original purchaser.
Unfortunately I had a typo, I meant a second hand Trek ebike warranty claim. Which I have done.
However you are still avoiding the point regarding Specialized also.
As for casting aspersions about what I do for a living. Nice.
Rough one to take from the tin foil hat man 🙂
You can already get motors repaired once they’re out of warranty, see my earlier post somewhere in the depths of this thread.
There's plenty that there seems to be no support at all for outside of warranty. Shimano, and Giant badged Yamaha motors for example. For most of the others there's aftermarket support for bearings and seals, but not for circuit boards.
😆
That is 100% true. I likened riding my non eeb to riding through wet sand.
Cougar
Is that genuinely the case? Can’t say as it’s something I’ve done much of beyond regular maintenance.
yep have a virtual window shop for a mid range 100mm or 135mm qr wheel or 100mm QR fork etc
10 yrs ago for example most bikes regardless of price had 26 wheels and QR and you could more or less upgrade a lower end bike to the higher spec incrementally .. now you can t really buy a major branded fork or wheels that isn’t boost thru axle
(Niche expensive brands excepted)
I think this thread highlights well the issues between ebike riders and non ebike riders so not really surprising they also don't always get on well when riding.
I am just going to go the whole hog and get a fully electric MX bike which will be powered using the energy of bike riders hatred.
Just to highlight what a complete and utter hypocrite I am, I am currently on the look out for a bolt-on mid-drive motor with a torque sensor for my old Santa Cruz Nomad.
It just looks really fun.
I think Bafang is one of the main suppliers there Bruce, priced between 700-800. But where add on kits used to be hub only far more development seems to be going in to bb mounted. Probably just a case of google and see whats available, then research that/those.
I think Bafang is one of the main suppliers there Bruce, priced between 700-800
Oh yeah, done that. The problem is Bafang doesn't have a torque sensor in their bolt on offerings.
Thinking about this:
It's the reason I won't even test an eMTB, I'll know what I'm missing.
Thankfully my eBike is a heavy steel gravel bike affair that's so utterly void in pleasure I'd rather carry a normal bike than ride that.
Are ebikes for real Mountainbikers?
hobnob
As for casting aspersions about what I do for a living. Nice.
Rough one to take from the tin foil hat man 🙂
Sorry, I didn't really mean to be so personal but I'm just sick of people pedalling lies about eMTB's to the unwary.
Some have obvious motivation... like they are trying to sell their eMTB before it dies outside warranty.. others are being compensated one way or another.
For many people a broken and not repairable eMTB will be devastating... something they saved for and can't afford to replace.
I meant a second hand Trek ebike warranty claim. Which I have done.
Trek clearly state the motor not their issue x2 in their warranty (3rd party warranty/not original owner)... so that comes under lucky not something to be relied upon.
Subsequent Ownership
Subsequent owners (second or later) are entitled to a 3-year warranty from the date of purchase from the retailer on the Trek frame and Trek fork. This does not include items such as wheels, suspension forks, drive train components etc. Proof of original purchase is required.
tin foil hat man
I'm a believer in "fool me once shame on me"...
I can't even find the Bosch eMotor warranty.. but what I can see is Bosch are absolutely liars
I found this page whilst looking for the warranty... its full of deliberate lies so hardly the sort of company I'm going to trust. https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/ebike-tuning
BruceWee
Just to highlight what a complete and utter hypocrite I am, I am currently on the look out for a bolt-on mid-drive motor with a torque sensor for my old Santa Cruz Nomad.
It just looks really fun.
It's an amazing amount of fun and much more. Some days I ride the eMTB and I'd probably not have ridden however I'd make a list of pro's and con's to each way or not.
An obvious pro to converting non destructively is you can always take it off if it breaks and you can't afford to fix it.
A negative is you can't decide if your riding an eMTB on a day by day basis if its the only bike.
My own riding group most (not all) eMTB owners also have a non-E and I personally eride my non-E more than my E wheras others ride the e more often.
I rode the eMTB yesterday as I met 3 others who were on eMTB... wheras last week 4 of us went to BPW and I rode the non-E (as one of us didn't have one) and I was at Twisted Sunday and rode a non-E and Friday I rode my non-E and loaned the E to a friend... I also ride the EMTB quite often when I go out by myself...
You probably want to work out as best you can where you'd be.
I’m just sick of people pedalling lies
Peddling
Pedalling is what us folk without eMTBs have to do more of.
Peddling
Pedalling is what us folk without eMTBs have to do more of.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Joke
Mister-P
😉
Regarding replacement batteries, a kind person on EMTB forums has created a guide for recelling Shimano batteries.
https://www.emtbforums.com/threads/re-build-ande-re-cell-of-shimano-batteries.32031/
Going to give it a try myself as one of my batteries has lost around 25% capacity in 20 months. Could try and warranty it but it's difficult to prove the lost capacity. Shimano have removed battery wear from their app.
Going to give it a try myself as one of my batteries has lost around 25% capacity in 20 months. Could try and warranty it but it’s difficult to prove the lost capacity. Shimano have removed battery wear from their app.
It's still in the Pro version the dealers have.
You can also download the PC version and if you can find someone to loan/rent you the connector you can print the report.
Plenty of reports of people using 3rd party apps to read battery health being told that invalidates their warranty so stay away from that.
Could try and warranty it but it’s difficult to prove the lost capacity. Shimano have removed battery wear from their app.
You can also download the PC version and if you can find someone to loan/rent you the connector you can print the report.
Lol 🙂
This is the sort of crap you have to put up with at dodgy car dealers.
chevychase
This is the sort of crap you have to put up with at dodgy car dealers.
Sadly (or Apple)... the Shimano battery warranty has a health/cycles part but the user can't see it.. and the dealer can only see the health part using Shimano software (or 3rd party software that invalidates warranty).
To compare that to Apple I know if my phone battery is showing 80% health (however they determine that) then it lasts <50% of the time (or thereabouts) and you need to get them to tell you if your battery qualifies for a warranty replacement.
My battery is terrible now. Sometimes I do a quick lunchtime spin on Turbo and after 40mins / 9 miles my battery is at 30%.
SHimano also changed the warranty, they originally guaranteed 80% after 500 cycles but thats' been removed, and now it only says 60% after 1000 cycles, which may as well be no warranty at all as no-one is going to use a battery that many times, or get that range loss, inside 2 year warranty period.
HoratioHufnagel
SHimano also changed the warranty, they originally guaranteed 80% after 500 cycles but thats’ been removed, and now it only says 60% after 1000 cycles, which may as well be no warranty at all as no-one is going to use a battery that many times, or get that range loss, inside 2 year warranty period.
I missed that ... I'm not disagreeing but where did you find that? I can't even find any official specific e-warranty stuff ? The whole charge cycles/health thing was something I saw I the ads and not on the real paper for the motor/battery.
As someone who may end up on an ebike in the next 10 years this talk of declining or failing battery power is quite off putting.
What do all you ebikers do after a few years and the battery is on its backside and out of warranty? Repair or replace? How? Are any types better to live with post warranty?
You can buy batteries easily enough for most of the big names these days... They're not cheap at £300-700 a pop... but you can get them.
One of our group has a 2020 giant that came with 500w battery, giant have recently released an 800w battery that is backwards compatible that he has fitted to his bike. It is bigger than all their current as supplied bike batteries. So I am assuming they will keep the same battery tech and connections for a while.
You can buy batteries easily enough for most of the big names these days… They’re not cheap at £300-700 a pop… but you can get them.
Eventually, I was on pre-order for a 2 months for the Bosch. (I pre-ordered a couple the fastest was 19/5 to 13/7)
Some cancelled etc.
Blackflag
As someone who may end up on an ebike in the next 10 years this talk of declining or failing battery power is quite off putting.
What do all you ebikers do after a few years and the battery is on its backside and out of warranty? Repair or replace? How? Are any types better to live with post warranty?
I'm sure they all have pro's and cons... but you say "in the next 10 years" and that's a bit like comparing a 1997 mobile with a 2007 with a 2017. At the moment its demand >> supply..
You need to think of it as a system ... it's all coded together and riddled with anti-tamper software so its a case of what fails irreparably first and what the motor manufacturer will sell.
Plenty of people are getting through 4-5 motors in 2yrs .. and each motor seems to have specific built in end of life and parts they refuse to sell.
e.g. Bosch fail irreparably when water gets into the main board / shimano a torque sensor etc.
Like mobile phones this is changing though... people are starting to reverse engineer the parts..
e.g. https://www.ebikemotorcentre.com/
The Ebike Motor Centre has teamed up with a local high-tech electronics company who had a team of engineers working with over 200 printed circuit boards, supplied by us, for over 3 weeks solid! Solving these software and hardware issues.
We can currently boast a 90% success rate of repairing all code 500 errors. This means it is no longer necessary to buy a new motor when it can be repaired. For the 10% that sadly can’t be repaired, we can usually offer a service exchange motor to keep you going.
Note: That's only for old Gen 2 motors. Presumably Bosch will step up and start more anti-tamper on newer motors to prevent repairs but it's a start, other manufacturers are copying bolt patterns so you can retro fit one of their motors.
The fundamental problem with used units (other than lack of spares) is they are designed to be non-maintainable and essentially just make it through the warranty (and preventative maintenance voids warranty**) so technically the best motor to buy outside warranty is one that has been maintained because the owner didn't care about warranty or one where the motor has just been replaced under warranty. That's not as weird as it sounds.. they may have wanted the US 20mph speed for example.
**I think Yamaha may allow you to put some extra grease in
My advice.. spend 2-3 mo before you buy. Check the repairers and what they can and can't do then... join groups for the motors and see what's failing.. Ignore people who are selling a used eBike telling you it's fine or you can just buy a new x,y,z...
I missed that … I’m not disagreeing but where did you find that? I can’t even find any official specific e-warranty stuff ? The whole charge cycles/health thing was something I saw I the ads and not on the real paper for the motor/battery.
It's usually mentioned on descriptions for the battery. e.g.
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/mtb-ebike-e8000/BT-E8035.html
Cyclelife span for charge (times) 1,000 (more than 60%)
Someone on EMTB forums captured the old description for Shimano batteries which is no longer on their website
Plenty of people are getting through 4-5 motors in 2yrs .. and each motor seems to have specific built in end of life and parts they refuse to sell.
That's the killer right there
Everything in the world we buy might break, i lost a bolt out of my Slayer early on... but that doesn't mean i'll lose another. But with Ebikes it's like you're sitting there waiting for it to break, rather than a slight possibility that it may break. It means you can't really buy a used one and if you buy new, you're likely to be without it for a certain amount of time more than once in the next 2 years.
HoratioHufnagel
Ah so not my crap google-foo....
I'd put money the "description" at the time of purchase is somewhat enforceable.
You might need to pay then do small claims or something but be useful to know when stuff changed.
But with Ebikes it’s like you’re sitting there waiting for it to break, rather than a slight possibility that it may break. It means you can’t really buy a used one
To be fair, when the motor on my loaned 2017 Turbo Levo went into graunchy death mode, the ebike motor repair guys repaired and upgraded the motor - better seals, bearings, belt and beefier sprag bearing - for around £230. That's not ideal for sure and a lot more expensive than a new bottom bracket, but it should now be both more robust and far better sealed than it was before and hopefully will last a lot longer. I suspect as more ebikes fail outside warranty, more options for repair will spring up. I actually think the battery is more of a worry. They're £730 new from Spesh. Without the motor and battery you have 16.5kg rolling chassis that you can't do anything with short of stripping it for parts.
Weeksy
That’s the killer right there
Everything in the world we buy might break, i lost a bolt out of my Slayer early on… but that doesn’t mean i’ll lose another. But with Ebikes it’s like you’re sitting there waiting for it to break, rather than a slight possibility that it may break. It means you can’t really buy a used one and if you buy new, you’re likely to be without it for a certain amount of time more than once in the next 2 years.
Yep but it's IMHO worse. If you really really couldn't get a bolt or even chainstay of the slayer you could buy another used frame (not RM) and fit everything to it (shock based on size).
If your motor goes... you need the same or very close motors or complete system changed.
e.g. EP8 is different wiring etc. to E7000/E8000 and the common consensus response to "can I upgrade" seems to be by the time you buy all the parts you can (and assuming you can actually buy) it's going to cost you more than just buying a new bike - I've not personally tried but people who know more than me say this.
But with Ebikes it’s like you’re sitting there waiting for it to break, rather than a slight possibility that it may break.
Twisted as it is ??? but given I have a shimano motor I'm hoping it's going to break at a convenient time (near end of warranty and when stock is in) not limp through 2yrs (which isn't even 2 yrs because it's date of purchase not delivery)
I wouldn't buy another ebike with a Shimano motor after reading this
https://www.emtbforums.com/ams/shimano-error-e299-ep801-ep600-anti-tamper-motor-lockout.39/
BadlyWiredDog
better seals, bearings, belt and beefier sprag bearing – for around £230. That’s not ideal for sure and a lot more expensive than a new bottom bracket, but it should now be both more robust and far better sealed than it was before and hopefully will last a lot longer.
It's a shame you can't do this and maintain warranty! Imagine it was suspension where you had a 2yr warranty but not allowed to service.
I suspect as more ebikes fail outside warranty, more options for repair will spring up.
Until something disruptive happens it's just a cold war ... people like www.ebikemotorcentre.com will reverse engineer a fix/board and the motor manufacturers will counter with new anti-tamper.
I wouldn’t buy another ebike with a Shimano motor after reading this
https://www.emtbforums.com/ams/shimano-error-e299-ep801-ep600-anti-tamper-motor-lockout.39//blockquote >I think when shimano refer to anti tamper lockout they mean bypassing the speed restriction, which is just the same approach as bosch have been taking for a few years now.
Its not really a surprise that shimano are making it harder to bypass the speed limiter (given how seriously some european countries take it) than it is at present - it is ridiculously easy right now. The surprise is it took them this long - some people buy a shimano motor'd bike purely because its so easy to derestrict.
I wouldn’t buy another ebike with a Shimano motor after reading this
Spend 10m mins on this FB group 😉 people on 4/5 motor etc.
Except I don't think Shimano are THAT much worse than the others.
Try this as another horses mouth scaremongering (I found this actually looking for the warranty information)
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/ebike-tuningblockquote >Tuning isn't just some trivial offence
Tuning is breaking the law, there's no doubt about it!
Not true -
The technical manipulation of eBikes, such as increasing the shutdown speed to over 25 km/h, creates continuous loads that were not accounted for in the design and for which even the robust, high-performance components of Bosch eBike Systems are not designed.
So either its an inferior system fitted in Europe or ... not true again as Bosch in the USA etc. are 20mph...
Tuning at sporting events is prohibited and is simply unfair.
Whilst I agree with the sentiment of the latter ... the former is untrue and hold on who brought out the "Race" motor ??
The software of the Bosch eBike systems can detect whether the pedelec has been tuned by means of a sensor while riding.
It can't as I've had this and 100% certain it wasn't tuned. (See also the post you linked from)
— Peter Collard 2018 — ( https://www.ebikemotorcentre.com/) - no affiliation here it just sums up the state of play
You should never be be told that something is not repairable. Once you have paid for that thing, it should become your thing to do with as you wish! The knowledge and tools should be provided to repair that thing should the need ever arise.
It isn’t sound ecologic practice to insist that you buy another thing, just because your first thing has stopped working!”
I think when shimano refer to anti tamper lockout they mean bypassing the speed restriction, which is just the same approach as bosch have been taking for a few years now.
Its not really a surprise that shimano are making it harder to bypass the speed limiter (given how seriously some european countries take it) than it is at present – it is ridiculously easy right now. The surprise is it took them this long – some people buy a shimano motor’d bike purely because its so easy to derestrict.
This is off topic, but I do love the way that legislation is brought in and enforced simply to stop ebikes going over 25 km/h. It's an enforcement issue. If it's not a big enough issue to dedicate resources to policing it then it's not a big enough issue.
I just find it ironic that cars are sold with the ability to break any speed limit, often multiple times over, and the only speed restriction* is a solemn promise by the driver not to.
Is this anti-tamper stuff actually being pushed by legislators or is it being used as an excuse by manufacturers. It seems to me it would be fairly easy to argue against given the only limitations on cars is an agreement by the driver not to use the loud pedal.
*OK, not the only one. If I remember correctly, cars are limited to a maximum of 240 km/h in some countries.
