Forum menu
I sold a boat propeller for £250 about 3 weeks ago. Shipping description stated it would be sent by Collectplus Economy, payment was made by PayPal.
I shipped the prop immediately but actually went for Collectplus standard service (bought through ebay) so it would get there a bit quicker.
A couple of days ago I get an email from the buyer asking when the prop was going to be delivered! I check the tracking which showed it as being delivered on the 12th April. I inform the buyer of these facts - he says that there would not have been anyone there when it was delivered. I suggest he should have know when it would arrive as ebay would have sent him the tracking number.
He's now contacted Collectplus who say that it was left on the doorstep and that I should contact them to start a claim. I didn't pay for the extra insurance so I think it's only covered for £50.
Am I likely to be liable for this even though Collectplus are sure it was delivered?
edit: It seems a bit sus that he waited nearly three weeks before asking where it was!
Yes.
Am I likely to be liable for this even though Collectplus are sure it was delivered?
Yes you are liable for it as the seller. The buyers contract is with you not Collectplus.
Unfortunately you are responsible. If the courier are saying they left it on his doorstep then it wouldn't be that surprising that it's been nicked.
Why are you going to close your paypal account?
As regards the waiting three weeks, it may be sus, but equally it's the kind of thing I'd do just through being slack. Good luck.
If they don't have a signature then I guess there's no proof it was actually delivered. I'd think eBay would side with the buyer and refund him in full.
Which leaves you needing to claim from collect+. If it only covers you up to £50 then it sounds like you'll be out of pocket. Not good.
And there's no way if knowing if the person actually has the prop or not which is gutting.
sorry, I reckon you're ****ed
for a highish value item you want (preferably) signed for and (def) insured IMO
Well, the buyer could be the totally innocent part in this if his description is true. And the delay could be him giving you the benefit of the doubt hoping it would turn up.
As it stands you have an agreement with the courier to deliver the item, not the buyer, so if it has gone missing or wasn't delivered to the right place/person that's for you to take up with the courier.
Collectplus who say that it was left on the doorstep
That doesn't count as 'delivered' in my opinion, that's 'abandoned'.
The description of tracking here is a bit ambiguous, normally with tracked parcels someone has to sign for them, and they should only be left somewhere (secure) if a secure location has been agreed. If there is a signature then that's a very different situation to the parcel just being left somewhere, I'd get onto the courier to clarify at this point...
How much extra was the insured option...?
.... but I have proof that it was delivered. How can I be responsible for a theft from his property?
That doesn't count as 'delivered' in my opinion, that's 'abandoned'.
This, refund the buyer and pursue Collectplus.
Better hope they don't close their paypal account though!
I use them - get a signature and pay for insurance - cost me a fiver for £300 cover on my last sale.
ebay only requires a signature over £750, so youre probably in the clear if it states delivery was made
Is the POD a signature of someone accepting the delivery? If not, then it's not really worth anything
Sounds like you've had a courier lose a propeller for you for £50, if that was the insurance cover for the Collectplus package you chose to use.
Sending someone an item worth ~£250, I'd want postage product that required a signature from the recipient and insurance again loss/breakage for the £250. This is why Royal Mail's Special Delivery costs more (and should be used for anything valued at more than £40 IIRC be sent through Royal mail), to offset the times when claims are made against something happening to packages.
Doesn't excuse parcel being dumped on doorstep, if this really was the case, posties officially have much stricter security rules about where they are supposed to leave mail and parcels.
I suspect eBay / Paypal will demand proof of delivery and consider it case closed.
It might be the one time they side with the seller.
Collect plus have been excellent for me - they have two optional extras on their delivery prices though - signed for and £300 insurance costs £5 extra, just a signature is £1 extra.
Good point about the safe place thing. I know companies like DPD allow you add an option to deliver to a "Safe place" but in doing that the recipient then accepts responsibility
sharkbait - Member.... but I have proof that it was delivered. How can I be responsible for a theft from his property?
The thief is of course liable - can you find him?
Liability then falls on you - but you didn't take out enough cover to insure the parcel.
but I have proof that it was delivered
do you? It's not clear form your original post if it was the buyer that told you it was left on the doorstep or the courier that told you.
If [i]you've[/i] got proof from the courier that they left a parcel in a publicly accessible place without prior agreement then you have proof that they didn't deliver it, they abandoned it. Refund the buyer and take it up with the courier.
If [i]you[/i] have proof that it was delivered and [i]signed for[/i] then that's different.
If all you've got is the buyer saying something then get onto the courier yourself and get more info.
How can I be responsible for a theft from his property?
Well obviously you're not, but you might be responsible for sorting out the buyer. The cockish answer is "because [i]you chose [/i]a bad courier"
It's frustrating when stuff like this happens but you need to remember that the buyer has no contract with the courier, you do, and it was your responsibility to get it to him safely. It doesn't make you responsible for the theft/poor delivery, the courier is responsible for that, but you're responsible for sorting your buyer out, the courier is responsible for sorting you out.
If eBay side with you grand, if they don't then you've learned an expensive lesson about under insuring.
You're liable, unless CollectPlus have broken the terms of their t&cs by just leaving it on a doorstep?
^^^ it's possible, on their website they talk about leaving it in a "safe place". Is the doorstep, in full view of everyone, "safe". Not IMO. Might take an argument though! Worth pursuing IMO.
Obviously in hindsight the easiest thing to do would've been paying the extra quid for a signature, or the fiver to be fully insured.
EDIT: this is on their website
our driver will try to leave your parcel in a safe place and leave a card to explain where the parcel is. (To protect the safety of your goods we have certain guidelines in place as to what counts as a ‘safe place’).If the driver cannot find a safe place, they will keep the parcel and leave a card with a telephone number for redelivery to be arranged.
couldn't (with a quick google) actually find the exact definition of "safe place" though
I didn't pay for the extra insurance so I think it's only covered for £50
Probably don't need me to tell you this but if it goes wrong, you have to accept that you're only ever going to get back a maximum of £50. I guess you didn't request a signature on delivery either?
If you did request a signature and they haven't got one, or have got one that's not the buyer's then you might have more comeback.
Imagine it the other way round and you bought an item online which was dumped on your doorstep with no signature or acceptance and was then stolen from doorstep.
Would that be your fault or the place you bought it from?
Should you lose the money or should the place you bough it from?
http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/seller-protection-faq.html#What if the buyer received the item but still files an 'item not received' case?
As regards the waiting three weeks, it may be sus, but equally it's the kind of thing I'd do just through being slack. Good luck.
I'd start off not wanting to ring any unnecessary bells and then probably get distracted.
I realise that's me being lazy/crap but doesn't mean I/they got the item.
I've had enough abandoned stuff by couriers and even abandoned next door etc.
OP are you sure you sent him the real thing? I thought it was just a prop?
Interstingly if you buy the postage through ebay you do not get the option to pay extra for insurance or a signature.
I'm £40 better off already as the sale price was £210 and not £250 as I thought.
The CP T&Cs state that compensation is payable for items that are lost or damaged - my parcel is neither as they say it's been delivered. So potentially I wouldn't get anything!
From the T&Cs
[i]If We are not able to deliver the Parcel, You authorise Us to try and deliver the Parcel to an alternative address close to the Relevant Delivery Point or to leave the Parcel in a safe place and (if successful) We shall leave at the Relevant Delivery Point details of where We have delivered the Parcel.[/i]
Even if they did leave it on the doorstep there should have been a note left.
Not wanting to sound rude, but £250 and you didn't send it signed for?
I've had enough abandoned stuff by couriers and even abandoned next door etc.
Me too. I only now buy items where they use Royal Mail or better still DPD. Any hint of MyHermes and the like and I shop elsewhere.
What proof will eBay accept from me when buyers open an item not received case?We require proof of delivery. You will need online documentation from a postal company that includes all of the following:
A status of “delivered” (or equivalent) and the date of delivery.
The recipient’s address, showing at least the city/county or postcode (or international equivalent).
Signature Confirmation for transactions that total £750 or more.
For cross-border transactions we may also ask you for proof of shipment.
We strongly encourage you to provide the postal service you use in your listings. Providing the dispatch time in your listings is mandatory, and is important to assess how we will deal with the buyer’s case. We also encourage you to use trackable postage services that include delivery and, where required, signature confirmation, and upload the tracking information into My eBay.
Boxes ticked..... looking more promising.
Not wanting to sound rude, but £250 and you didn't send it signed for?
That was my first thought. The same thing happened to me a few years back but I was able to claim back from Parcelforce and refund the buyer.
Fromn their T&Cs:
to leave the Parcel in a safe place
What does 'safe place' mean? Does it being stolen mean that it by definition isn't safe?
Boxes ticked..... looking more promising.
Promising for you. Not for the poor buyer who's £210 out of pocket!
From the T&Cs
If We are not able to deliver the Parcel, You authorise Us to try and deliver the Parcel to an alternative address close to the Relevant Delivery Point or to leave the Parcel in a safe place and (if successful) We shall leave at the Relevant Delivery Point details of where We have delivered the Parcel.
Good luck OP, hopefully you'll get somewhere with the courier*, but the above quote highlights why you need to be careful, as based on the you have agreed to their terms and the option of it being left somewhere else.
I'd still dispute the safeness of their safe place though, they must have guidelines/examples of what constitutes a safe place, and 'doorstep' is unlikely to be one of them.
* but bear in mind you need to look after your buyer regardless, the right thing to do in this case is make sure they are refunded, whether that's by you or eBay is a matter of process.
It is your responsibility to refund the buyer, but I'd claim against the courier. The limit on the insurance is irrelevant if they have not followed the terms of their contract with you, which they didn't. They didn't leave it in a safe place, they left it on the step, and they didn't delivery a note saying where it was. Insurance is for damage or accident, not their own negligence.
I agree - it's sucky 🙁Not for the poor buyer who's £210 out of pocket!
From my point of view I've fulfilled my duties - I sent the item on time using the shipping service described in the advert. I bought my postage through eBay and used a tracked system when I could have used something that wasn't tracked. CP says it's been delivered into his porch (not doorstep, my mistake.... and a quick look on google maps shows the house to be on a small, quiet looking cul de sac with little passing traffic) - job done.
If it has been pinched then I feel sorry for him, but of course there's always the chance that he's tried the prop, found it's not good for his purpose and is trying it on.
I've sent quite a lot of stuff through CollectPlus and it's odd it's only the most expensive thing I've ever sent that's 'not been delivered'
Best of luck sorting.I Stopped selling on Ebay after a similar thing.
All those mentioning insurance that is not always straightforward, I sent an expensive component to be anodized and after a while it never came back so tried ringing the company,number not recognized,bit of searching found out they had gone bust 2 days before I actually sent it(had used for years), got onto Royal Fail and asked for proof of delivery as I had paid for insurance up to £500, they produced the guys signature to say he had it , i said how could you have delivered it they don`t exist , "we have delivered it to his forwarding address" I thought great where is it "We are not allowed to disclose this , if we did we would be breaching his rights".But you have not delivered it to where I asked , yes but we have delivered it to who you asked at his new address.They will wriggle out of anything. Never saw it / him again just had to machine a new component at a cost of about £500
I bought my postage through eBay and used a tracked system when I could have used something that wasn't tracked.
I suppose it depends what you advertised as the P&P....
CollectPlus economy.
And what would that achieve? Signatures mean nothing given that they are now a completely unrepresentative squiggle drawn by a finger on a screen.Not wanting to sound rude, but £250 and you didn't send it signed for?
They can easily be done by anyone.
A lot more than no signature.And what would that achieve? Signatures mean nothing given that they are now a completely unrepresentative squiggle drawn by a finger on a screen.
They can easily be done by anyone
Insurance is to cover both the buyer and seller. Someone is going to be out of pocket and it's probably going to be you.
Not for the poor buyer who's £210 out of pocket!
I agree - it's sucky
am i being naive here? why would the buyer be out of pocket? i just assumed youd be refunding him and claiming the value back from collect+/ebay/paypal/whoever to refund yourself, no?
And what would that achieve? Signatures mean nothing given that they are now a completely unrepresentative squiggle drawn by a finger on a screen.
That's the courier's problem.
claiming the value back from collect+/ebay/paypal/whoever to refund yourself, no?
Who do Ebay/Paypal care? Collect + might give £50 though.
Collect + might give £50 though.
i thought OP had a valid claim as they hadnt left it in a safe place so had broken their contract? in which case itd be full amount wouldnt it?
Why should I refund him just because he says the package wasn't delivered? - that really would be naive.
CP say it has been delivered - for all we know the driver may well have handed it to the buyer personally and he's scamming me!
If he wants to take it up with eBay and open an 'item not recieved' case then that's fine but I can supply eBay with all the information they state in their Seller Protection FAQs that they require from me.
If they find in his favour then fine I'll refund and get what I can out of CP, but until then I'm doing nothing.
With regret in this case I hope the OP is the one out of pocket. Unless you offered a range of delivery options with the potential 'danger' of this option highlighted it's over to you in my opinion. It's not reasonable to expect the buyer to delve into the T&Cs of the service you are offering on their website. Did you say you were not going to insure the prop for more than the base value? You you told him you were using collect plus economy - why would he know that you went with the cheapskate £50 option when you knew the goods were worth far more. Your error - you effectively elected to insure yourself.
Why should I refund him just because he says the package wasn't delivered?
It was not delivered. It was (apparently) placed on his door step. Collect plus might call that delivered but imo unless the recipient has specifically chosen that option/risk that is not delivered, just dumped in the general vicinity of the destination.
CP say it has been delivered - for all we know the driver may well have handed it to the buyer personally and he's scamming me!
That's tin foil hat territory! The driver is not going to put 'doorstep' unless he was in on it.
eBay does not give you the option to increase the insurance when you buy through themDid you say you were not going to insure the prop for more than the base value?
How do you know that it wasn't delivered... just because the buyer says so?It was not delivered.
It was (apparently) placed on his door step.
The buyer said it was in the porch, not on the doorstep.
This/all information has come from the buyer, not from collectplus - I've had no contact with collectplus.The driver is not going to put 'doorstep' unless he was in on it.
How do you know that it wasn't delivered... just because the buyer says so?
Yes. The best you have (3rd hand as you have not bothered to check for yourself 🙄 ) is it was plonked close to the delivery address. Recipient 'might' have picked it up but you have no proof of that sadly.
This/all information has come from the buyer, not from collectplus - I've had no contact with collectplus.
Dear god - get a grip. You selected CP, their contract is with you. You put the item in their care. And you have left the running around to the buyer and got as far as moaning on a forum without even making contact with the company you subcontracted to finish the job for you yet.
Sorry, you are not helping yourself here. Man up and take some responsibility.
Why should I refund him just because he says the package wasn't delivered? - that really would be naive.
What is naïve is not realising Paypal will just take the money from you and give it back to him. You cannot prove he received it and it is 100% your problem to deal with and lose out on.
Actually he cannot prove that he has not received it.You cannot prove he received it and it is 100% your problem to deal with and lose out on.
I have all the proof that ebay and PayPal require for seller protection
How do we know that this guy has not had the delivery when the evidence points to the fact that he has?
I agree with Sharkbait here - he used an Ebay provided service and the Ebay provided service says it was delivered so surely it is now the buyers problem? How could the seller claim on insurance for an item lost in the post when the postal service used says it was delivered?
Well it's not black and white from either point of view, but the OP should have been in touch with the courier.
I predict his/her classifieds adverts will be quiet in future.
I'd be interested in the outcome of all this 🙂
? It was an ebay auction! Don't think I've sold anything here for >5 years!I predict his/her classifieds adverts will be quiet in future.
You think? I can imagine the conversation:but the OP should have been in touch with the courier.
[i]me: Hi, I'd like to make a claim for an item that's been lost
CP: Ok, what's the tracking number?
me: [gives tracking number]
CP: That item was delivered three weeks ago
me: yes, I know but I'd still like to make a claim
CP: yeah, right, but you see we've delivered the package to the addressee.
me: yes I can see that... but I'd still like to make a claim
CP: Goodbye[/i]
I've decided the last things I sold on ebay will be the last.
There is just too much risk involved and then all the hassle keeping the buyers happy so you don't get bad feedback. It feels like you have to jump through hoops chasing couriers and troublesome buyers for too little reward.
I'll just use gumtree and face-to-face sales in future. Put something on keenly priced and it's usually gone quickly with no hassle or fees.
Based on my own experienced of ebay once the dust settles I think the OP is going to be £160 out-of-pocket.
You think? I can imagine the conversation:
me: Hi, I'd like to make a claim for an item that's been lost
CP: Ok, what's the tracking number?
me: [gives tracking number]
CP: That item was delivered three weeks ago
me: yes, I know but I'd still like to make a claim
CP: yeah, right, but you see we've delivered the package to the addressee.
me: yes I can see that... but I'd still like to make a claim
CP: Goodbye
He's now contacted Collectplus who say that it was left on the doorstep [b]and that I should contact them to start a claim[/b]. I didn't pay for the extra insurance so I think it's only covered for £50.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong but the way you write this it sounds like the buyer has been told you need to contact them to start a claim. So why do you think the conversation will go as you think? And why did you mention it being covered by any amount if you are now adamant delivery is considered made and they would laugh at you if you tried to make a claim?
If i were the buyer and the courier left it on the doorstep and it got nicked, I'd pursue it via the small claims process. I think you'd loose as the court is unlikely to think that leaving it on a doorstep means delivery. And the courier is acting on behalf of you...
Actually he cannot prove that he has not received it.
He shouldn't have to, you can't prove a negative. You should be able to prove it has been delivered. At the moment you can't because, in your own words:
I've had no contact with collectplus.
Why the hell not!? it's you that contracted them to deliver your parcel, the fact that the buyer has contacted them already is neither here nor there.
The buyer should have contacted you and *you* should have said "I'm terribly sorry, I'll look into this for you" and contacted the courier.
You then go from there based on what you find out from the company you contracted to deliver your parcel.
It may still turn out he's trying to scam you, but you need to do your bit for sure. It might be that he really is the unlucky sod who is sitting at home £210 out of pocket with no item because *your* courier failed to deliver.
He could well be on propellertrackworld moaning about how he's paid some guy for an item that's not turned up and the seller isn't doing their bit to sort it out.
You should be able to prove it has been delivered
I can... the tracking says it's been delivered.... or is that not enough?
I can... the tracking says it's been delivered.... or is that not enough?
I wouldn't say so.
I can... the tracking says it's been delivered.... or is that not enough?
I thought you said that the buyer told you it was left in the porch, does your tracking say that?
And you still haven't said if there's a signature (assuming not) so buyer can quite legitimately challenge your claim.
At the moment it sounds like you're assuming the buyer is a scammer, and not taking any steps yourself to contact the courier to find out any more. If the buyer said the courier told them it was left unattended then the [i]least [/i]you could do is contact the courier to verify that.
I may come across like a dog with a bone on this but I have been in the exact situation your buyer is in on a couple of occasions, where I have purchased something and the item has not arrived.
In one case I contacted the seller and they did the decent thing, refunded me and took it up with their courier, I don't actually know what happened in the end, but as far as I'm concerned that's the end of it, I bought something, I never saw it so I quite rightly got refunded.
In the other case I contacted the seller who replied with basically the same as you 'tracking says it was delivered' and then stone-walled me. I had to open a PP dispute and he said the same to PP, he provided a copy+paste from the tracking which said it was 'left in secure location'. I Then had to spend days arguing that there was no secure location outside my address, that I hadn't agreed to that and that even if the item was 'delivered' it wasn't delivered 'to me' or an authorised person acting on my behalf and that it was his issue to sort out. Eventually got accused of taking the item and trying to scam him. Fortunately I got my money back through paypal.
I wouldn't say so.
Try telling that to the HMRC, police etc - posting a letter/notice (even ones that are not tracked) is enough to assume it has been delivered - try claiming you didn't receive a notice for speeding and you would be bang out of luck.
Try telling that to the HMRC, police etc - posting a letter/notice (even ones that are not tracked) is enough to assume it has been delivered - try claiming you didn't receive a notice for speeding and you would be bang out of luck.
I'm sure there are many other examples of things that are not the same.
In this case, the buyer contracted the seller to supply and deliver the item. Imagine buying something from Amazon that didn't turn up, then Amazon passing the buck saying "tough luck, take it up with the courier". Do you think that would wash?
I can... the tracking says it's been delivered.... or is that not enough?
No, it is not. What exactly does it say?
It wasn't signed for and it was not there when buyer arrived home. No way is that the buyers problem in any way whatsoever.
You need to put yourself in the buyers position as I and others have pointed out.
Buyer knows the system and arrived home to see package left unsigned for on the doorstep, he's then sold the item on, then claimed it hasn't arrived three weeks later knowing he will get a refund.
He's made a few hundred quidz and you will get your £50 compo.
DTA man, DTA
I thought you said that the buyer told you it was left in the porch, does your tracking say that?
[IMG]
[/IMG]
For “item not received” cases, if sellers post the item within their stated handling time and provide a valid proof of delivery for the item, eBay is likely to decide in their favour.“Proof of delivery” is online documentation from a postal company that includes all of the following:
A status of “delivered” (or equivalent in the country to which the item was delivered) and the date of delivery.
The recipient’s address, showing at least the city/county or postcode (or international equivalent).
Signature Confirmation for transactions that total £750 or more.
just ring eBay, explain it all
Sharkbait wins.
That's shoddy, to say the least.
What's shoddy?
What's shoddy?
That a courier tracker is accepted as proof of delivery. I've had the same when parcels have been left by the front door in full view of any passer-by. It's only luck that the parcels haven't been stolen.
Buyer should have contacted you sooner. I usually ask for feedback if item is showing as delivered.
Wasn't there a buyer on here who lost out when the courier handed over some expensive electronic item to some passer by who signed for it.E bay said it had been signed for and sided with the seller so the buyer had to pursue it with the courier.
What does "Delivered to customer" mean? That the courier left it outside their house.
The customer has not signed for it/accepted delivery have they. I had the same happen to me a few weeks back where the courier apparently threw the parcel over my fence but it was stated as "Delivered"
Guessing it was stolen so called company I bought it from and got another one sent to me next day.
Yep I'm hoping eBay decide in buyers favour 😀
Why are you going to close your PayPal account though?
Wasn't there a buyer on here who lost out when the courier handed over some expensive electronic item to some passer by who signed for it
Our local Parcelforce driver told me he got disciplined for an incident when he turned up at a house with parcel, asked bloke on drive if his name was .... guy said yes and signed for and took parcel. Of course the parcel was never seen again, turned out to be an expensive laptop. Couriers are supposed to ask you for your name first. Not that that's great as even if it's different they still tend to hand it over as in a rush to next job.
Related to OP issue, last week I was waiting at traffic lights passing through a posh village. There was a row of nice cottages right by the road. Several had parcels left by their front doors in full view. Can see how things do go missing. And no I didn't.