Forum menu
squirrelking
Free Member
😆 right ye are adolf.Away tae…
martial law
noun
military government, involving the suspension of ordinary law.
😆
YGH
I know literally dozens of folk who have had it including my other half. ( mostly work colleagues 🙂
squirrelking
What do you propose then?
Clear simple messaging and acting correctly at the right time. The horse has bolted though. So lock down it is.
tjagain
Full Member
Martial law may be going a bit far. Making it law rather than guidance and asking the police to jump hard on folk not go softly softly should be enough.
The kind of action required can only be realised with willing compliance, unless you want to completely change the cultural norm of policing in scotland and the uk. f that tbh.
The reason for peoples relaxed attitudes over and up to the holiday period has everything to do with governments mixed messaging, in general, the vast majority follow the rules when they are laid out clear enough. (ffs both governments spent a month talking about 5 day christmas get togethers then relaxed levels in early december just to facilitate christmas shopping, the messaging was ridiculous, new strain or not. Then decided oh shit a few days before...).
As I say, "in general, the vast majority follow the rules when they are laid out clear enough", Which we'll see plenty of evidence of over january and february, now that we're back to the simple message.
Big difference now is that we'll need to do it for 2 months, maybe 1 and a bit in scotland, rather than for 2 weeks that we would have done back months ago. Might have needed another 2 weeks in between, but it would have been infinitely better to have solid 2 week lockdowns every couple of months rather than the dragging it out half arsedness we've had.
Academic now though, we're back to april levels, hopefully if they can get the first dose vaccines rolled out to over 50s by May everything starts to looks different after that.
Darkest afore dawn and aw that eh...
if you live in a nursing home and rather than at any other address and catch Covid you’re denied access to hospital treatment. Denied life saving treatment, denied palliative care.
That is simply wrong. Care homes can and do provide good palliative care and if a resident needs to go to hospital they do. Infact from my professional experience care homes provide better palliative care than a general hospital
The order staff are getting vaccinated is
Vaccination workers
Care home staff and residents
Front line healthcare workers
over 80s
etc etc.
Why were the likes of Australians and New Zealanders able to accept the lockdown restrictions they had, yet the British (and others) cant? Can you imagine the toy throwing
I hope this is because they trust their elected governors. I hope we one day get to this point and it may be that Brexit drives it. For too long now our politicians have had an easy out of blaming the EU for our troubles. (likewise Holyrood blaming Westminster for all of Scotlands woes)
Our politicians are now under more scrutiny and their will be an expectation of positive delivery on services and there will be nobody to blame in the event of failure. Hopefully we can have a new breed of politicians that are happy to be accountable and accept personal failure, then maybe one day the population may believe what they are being told and adhere to it. By current observation we as nation(s) have a deep mistrust of our leaders, sadly the effect is that we are killing one another.
TJ - of course, I'm not denying lots of people have had it, but if you look at the numbers we've got 135,000 recorded cases of it. And while there will be more than that, in a country of 5,460,000, for most folk it's relatively academic - something considered with the frontal lobes other than the cerebellum.
To be fair English lockdown is tougher than Scottish…..
England:-
And….Specifying only once a day for exercise
And….If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live. You may leave your local area for a legally permitted reason, such as for work.
…..Which is linguistically tighter than the Scottish version
That's all going to be guidance from what's been said. The restrictions will just be tier 4 but with schools and outdoor exercise facilities shut.
That’s mental – totally reactionary
Yup, and I'm frankly done with pissing about. It's getting on a year of this shite and I don't see it ending any time soon because a bunch of fannies can't behave themselves. Civil liberties or not what about the civil liberties of everyone who has had to put their lives on hold and lost their livelihoods?
Okay full on martial law is daft, I agree, but
Clear simple messaging and acting correctly at the right time.
hasn't worked. No parties seems a pretty simple concept to me yet look around. The police can't act because they don't have the manpower. Policing by consent doesn't begin and end with where it does or doesn't inconvenience you, that's not what that means.
Yes that horse has bolted but what makes you think this iteration of lockdown will provide the answers?
As I say, “in general, the vast majority follow the rules when they are laid out clear enough”, Which we’ll see plenty of evidence of over january and february, now that we’re back to the simple message.
What simple message is that? Nothing has changed beyond how many folk you can see and a requirement to stay "local".
I really, sincerely, hope you prove me utterly wrong but right now my faith in my fellow man is at an all time low.
Why were the likes of Australians and New Zealanders able to accept the lockdown restrictions they had, yet the British (and others) cant?
What makes you think we wouldn’t have accepted proper travel restrictions and a harder lockdown at the start ? As someone said up the thread, the majority do still respect the law.... and many were actually calling for this back in March. It just needed some political conviction (at UK level) and a massive logistical effort to properly quarantine returning people and we could maybe have followed the NZ / Aus route.
Scotroutes
Why we didn’t close down borders, I will never know.
I know. It’s got something to do with political unions
You might need to explain this one! We were already out of EU...so were able, but chose not to “take back control” of our (UK) borders. Suspect you probably mean the other union though !
Suspect you probably mean the other union though
That 🙂
It is such a broad swathe of people ignoring rules that it is too late to impose a lock down. Anybody think social media is going to have fewer pictures of hills/rides/folk watching the footy?
Anybody think social media is going to have fewer pictures of hills/rides/
I think you underestimate how many folk will calm things down. In our area compliance seems pretty good, plus lots of the rides and hills are from the door and local.
Meanwhile, Celtic Football club apparently go en masse to Dubai for their holibags. Really..?
What an appalling example of poor leadership by public figures.
Meanwhile, Celtic Football club apparently go en masse to Dubai for their holibags. Really..?
What an appalling example of poor leadership by public figures.
To be fair, this was organised away back in August and okay'd by ScotGov, before we went into the various higher tiers, never mind the current situation. Why they've went ahead is a bit of a mystery to be fair, imagine the slating they'll get if they come back with even a couple of players positive?.
Hardly essential though. I mean, they could have gone to Largs, it's lovely there. Still, a nice wee holiday for Neil before he's given a golden handshake.
I don't think anyone of sane mind would claim it was essential!.
I don’t think anyone of sane mind would claim it was essential!.
I work with few people who whilst sane in all other regards would argue that there is nothing wrong with it 🙂
I mean, they could have gone to Largs, it’s lovely there
They'd be feart that SquirrelKing started his martial law while they were there!
It is such a broad swathe of people ignoring rules that it is too late to impose a lock down.
IMO its a small but obvious minority
So I can interact with dozens of people daily, face to face, indoors at work(manufacturing/engineering facility) but only 1 person outdoors whilst exercising.
Haha...Aye, that will be right.
So I can interact with dozens of people daily, face to face, indoors at work(manufacturing/engineering facility)
The same people day to day makes it less likely to spread if one person gets it. It limits the amount of exposure. Not a difficult concept to understand. Plus you'll be wearing masks will you not and not standing in front of each other constantly.
Explain why its less likely to spread if one person gets it ?
Minus any patronisation please.
Almost like my regular group of riding buddies,not constantly standing in front of one another....outdoors.
Taken from the ScotGov site...
You can travel for local outdoor sport or exercise such as meeting another person, walking, cycling, golf or running that starts and finishes at the same place (which can be up to 5 miles from the boundary of your local authority area), as long as you abide by the rules on meeting other households.
Have I got it right that I'm allowed to travel, to the coast for example, from central Moray for a bike ride? No five mile limit? That might be handy to get the kids out at the weekend as it's pretty icy around here atm.
So I can interact with dozens of people daily, face to face, indoors at work(manufacturing/engineering facility) but only 1 person outdoors whilst exercising.
Yes.
Then you will only infect that one person.
Have I got it right that I’m allowed to travel, to the coast for example, from central Moray for a bike ride? No five mile limit? That might be handy to get the kids out at the weekend as it’s pretty icy around here atm.
No.
Travel no further than you need to reach to a safe, non-crowded place to exercise in a socially distanced way.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-stay-at-home-guidance/
If you have stuff closer to home, you should be using that, unless it's so crowded that you can't socially distance.
So I can interact with dozens of people daily, face to face, indoors at work(manufacturing/engineering facility) but only 1 person outdoors whilst exercising.
Haha…Aye, that will be right.
Stop thinking this is about you. It's not. It's about all of us.
Some of us still have to have interaction with other people because of our job roles. I hope you/your company are minimising the risk whilst this is happening. Some clearly are whilst some are not partly through lethargy, partly through lack of insight/education and partly because they need a big stick to do the right thing in every aspect of life and there are not enough big sticks knocking around at the moment.
But just because you do have interaction at work does not mean you can't join the rest of society in reducing contact when off duty. In fact as someone who is more likely to have covid than some wfh office monkey cocooned at home, it's even more important you get it right off duty than them.
Again, I'll say it again for the hard of thinking - it's not about you. It's about all of us. This is really not a difficult concept to understand.
Travel no further than you need to reach to a safe, non-crowded place to exercise in a socially distanced way.
Edit - Got it, I'd skipped to the detail first 😆
Again, I’ll say it again for the hard of thinking – it’s not about you. It’s about all of us. This is really not a difficult concept to understand.
Nope no need. Your condescension is loud and clear.
I’ve read it twice and missed this line…
It should really be replicated in the Exercise/Travel sections.
Nope no need. Your condescension is loud and clear.
Good. More than happy to be condescending to the hard of thinking. As I said big stick is needed for some sadly.
It should really be replicated in the Exercise/Travel sections
Absolutely, I'm sure I won't be last to miss it by looking at sections that relate to me first.
I'm still gonna need to travel if it's all boiler plate ice though 😉
I guess the difference there is “can” vs “should”. Yes you can go to the coast and wouldn’t be breaking any laws (as far as I can tell). Whether you should or not, we’ll that’s up to you.
Personally that’s how I’m going to leave it. I’m not going to judge anybody who sticks to the rules since I have no idea what really matters to them. If the coast is important for your mental health and you can access a quiet bit within your local authority that’s fine by me. If mountains are your thing and you can get to a quiet one within the rules then I’m not going to judge you for it. Plenty of others will though.
I guess you just have to ask yourself whether there is anything closer that will achieve the same aim. For me, I can usually find something closer that will give me the same mental health benefits. But I know people who need their fix of mountains to just about cope and I’m not going to make their lives any harder by giving them a hard time about it.
The BBC keep stating that it is now law to work from home -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55531074
"People are now required by law to stay in their homes and to work from home."
But the guidance doesn't seem to say that-
"People are strongly advised to work from home wherever that is practicable."
Anyone got any ideas? Also, there's a few chartered accountants round us and none of them seemed to do the working from home thing despite, I'm assuming, being entirely computer based. Anyone got any idea why they couldn't work from home?
I guess you just have to ask yourself whether there is anything closer that will achieve the same aim.
Oh I'm more than happy to go from the front door and generally have since this all began, only been out of Moray a handful of times since March, I just wanted to check in case I needed to is all.
highlandman
Meanwhile, Celtic Football club apparently go en masse to Dubai for their holibags. Really..?
What an appalling example of poor leadership by public figures.Nobeerinthefridge
To be fair, this was organised away back in August and okay’d by ScotGov, before we went into the various higher tiers, never mind the current situation. Why they’ve went ahead is a bit of a mystery to be fair, imagine the slating they’ll get if they come back with even a couple of players positive?.
In fairness, had we won this would barely even get a mention, fitba players travel all over the shop well outside normal restrictions these days, so ho hum.
But butthurt and permanently greeting faced celtic fans are making their displeasure known about it. Just another thing for the fuds to greet about this year. They are somewhat doing my tits in with the permanent negativity and torn facedness. 😆
Also, there’s a few chartered accountants round us and none of them seemed to do the working from home thing despite, I’m assuming, being entirely computer based. Anyone got any idea why they couldn’t work from home?
Chartered accountant working from home here. Not seen my team face to face for 10 months and run day to day quite happily whilst also completing pretty decent sized projects. I'd rather meet people, but with a bit of effort it can be avoided. Some people go to office for the odd bit here or there for filing or to use kit there it isn't worth replicating in every home, but that's a few hours every couple of weeks.
being entirely computer based. Anyone got any idea why they couldn’t work from home?
A couple of guys I work with have 2 kids at Uni and wives working from home, both struggle for space and bandwidth, so go into an otherwise empty office.
fitba players travel all over the shop well outside normal restrictions these days, so ho hum.
International friendlies are a prime example tbh, utterly pointless.
So I can interact with dozens of people daily, face to face, indoors at work(manufacturing/engineering facility) but only 1 person outdoors whilst exercising.
Haha…Aye, that will be right
.
Personally I have to be in close contact with covid positive people all day at work. Obviously the highest possible risk to me ( half the staff have caught it)
Outside of work its clearly me that is the risk to others. The risk from others to me is very low in comparison to at work
However by reducing the risks to both me and to others outside of work it reduces overall risk
dumbot - by your logic I should be taking no precautions outside of work and ignoring all the guidence
I don’t think anyone of sane mind would claim it was essential!.
I dont think anyone of sane mind would go to Largs!
FWIW I work with, by and large, the same 8 other people. We are required to maintain distance and wear masks whenever we're not eating or at our own desks. When we have to work closer we take additional precautions. It's by no means perfect but folk are complying and getting on with it. So far we appear to have prevented any spreads despite having a few asymptomatic folk on site.
I can see exactly where Merak is coming from, it makes no sense when you present it like that but your work is a (hopefully) controlled environment (otherwise H&S can shut you down) whilst outside its just a case of hoping people do the right thing.
Nicola Sturgeon has warned Donald Trump against flying to Scotland to play golf to avoid Joe Biden’s inauguration as US president later this month, since that would breach Scottish lockdown laws.
The first minister was responding to a report that Prestwick airport, which is close to Trump’s Turnberry golf resort in Ayrshire, has been told to expect a US military Boeing 757 used by Trump in the past on 19 January - the day before Biden’s inauguration ceremony in Washington DC.
Tee hee. so if Trump tries to come to Scotland he will be arrested 🙂
so if Trump tries to come to Scotland he will be arrested
TJ
If not for that ,how about..
Nicola Sturgeon has said Donald Trump will face “due accountability” in Scotland if evidence emerges that his Scottish golf courses have been used for money laundering and fraud.
The first minister said she will not protect the “soon to be former president of the United States” from investigation by Scottish authorities if evidence of malpractice emerges when he becomes a private citizen.
I like the effort that’s been put in here: http://bikepackingscotland.com/boundaries/
Don’t think I’ll be bothering for my route, involving a bog on the Campsies at the moment though
Holy ****, shut that border.
Town is now running at 118 positive cases up from 78 last week and up from 5 in October.
Bet the pubs wish they hadno had a wee lock in Xmas Eve.
What a ****ing joke.
Wife is doing a post grad at caley uni, only thing left is a practical exam. Was scheduled for 16/17 Jan, so falls right in no non essential travel, it's not a course which any of them require to do to continue practising etc.
So, they've decided to go ahead with it. 20 nurses from all over country, using public transport, for a procedural exam that is actually only bring done in emergencies only at present. The exam could be carried out at their own hospitals by mentors. Oh no, not a chance.
Un ****ing believable.
It would appear that unbelievable acts are flavour of the season.
We've been in "panic" mode getting work ready and online for kids to start with on Monday. All done on Teams and a "homework" app called satchelone.
Just been told to hold fire on that as there's doubt about using teams and satchelone or maybe there's no doubt. We'll maybe find out tomorrow pm.
An observation more than a criticism: I was on the A9 for a short spell at 7:30 this morning and there was loads of traffic - not just deliveries. During the last lockdown it was rare to see any traffic at all. Private cars were completely absent. I guess more businesses have measures in place to allow folk to work as "normal" given they've had time to adapt?
The fears gone Colin, I genuinely think that's what's happened. Lots of folk have had months to confirm their own bias on Facebook, daily mail, whatever, and are bending guidance to suit them.
I remember in April actually stopping dead when I heard an ambulance siren, and thinking it was for some poor soul with this illness.
Sadly, I hardly give it a second thought now.
Just found this line in the DMBinS release for today
you should NOT stop during your ride
Any idea where this appears in the guidance?
The fears gone
People can't live in fear for long, especially of something that isn't personally that frightening for most.
Fear was never the right tool for getting compliance with this but I don't think our society now has the right tools, if we ever had them. We've become too fragmented, self centered and mistrustful.
Fancy giving my sister a ring about that Spin ? She might be able to answer during her 13 hour shifts turning people my age (40’s) prone to keep them alive in her ICU ? Although she might still be hard to hear wheezing through her own Covid lungs having caught it 4 weeks ago.
...so falls right in no non essential travel...
actually seems to fall right into the 18(2)c reasonable excuse
actually seems to fall right into the 18(2)c reasonable excuse
A non essential work course? Is that listed? I'll be damned.😆
@Scotroutes, I heard on the radio Gove (I think) saying you can meet one other person for exercise, be that a cyxle, run or walk etc but you can't stop to sit down but you're allowed to pause. It has to be exercise not a chat on a park bench for example.
I wonder if that's the interpretation DMBinS are going for.
Fancy giving my sister a ring about that Spin ?...
Not sure what your point is here, you sound angry at what I said? My point was that our society clearly isn't well equipped to deal with something like covid because it requires people who think they won't be much affected themselves to make significant changes in their behaviour to protect others.
I misread your post 😂 Soz.
No worries.
Shetlands having a higher case rate than Edinburgh is incredible.
Borders and DG is fairly obviously down to cross border travel mixed with lower tier restrictions, but shetland is a head scratcher.
It's clear that many island/rural communities are not maintaining the same social distancing strictures as elsewhere. This is partly based on the view that "no one here has the virus", which is fine until someone does. The Uist outbreak last year was exacerbated by car sharing - amongst home carers who had no other means of getting around due to lack of public transport. I see photos of friends of mine mingling with other locals. I have family who still have folk in the house. I guess this behaviour might have been manageable until the new, more infectious, strain appeared too.
I did wonder if that was the case, but didn't want to say as I've no experience of the place!.
RE: Michael Gove up there ^, I'm pretty sure the Scottish regulations allow you to meet 1 adult from another household outside for socialising as well as exercising. The English restrictions are a little stricter than ours.
I think the smaller Scottish counties having higher rates is a stats thing dues to smaller populations. Scottish Borders pop is a shade over 115k, so that 391 is less than 450 cases. (is that right? I'm better at spelling...). I am not trying to downplay it, 40 folk very sick in the BGH is still a lot, it just seems worse than it is. Its awful, wear masks, stay at home, wash your hands etc
I was also wondering if the Edinburgh festival will be going ahead this year? How much time do the performers/venues etc need... and how likely is it that it'll be OK by August anyway?
On that note, I am organising the Red Bull World Pump Track Challenge UK heat at the Skelf for this year. Booked in for July 10th/11th.
I should really be starting to organise it now, but I'm swithering over it - no idea if it will go ahead, and don't want to commit our wee charity to any contracts we would have to pay up for if its cancelled.
On the good side, it's an outdoor event, though we were going to hire the sportshall next door for a kind of athletes village thing.
On the bad side it involves people travelling from all over the country (and a few international people from Red Bull). And lots of spectators standing close to each other - not a huge amount of space around the track.
Yes hels, that's why I said rates and not numbers, but the point is that in an area with nowhere near the concentration of numbers they a city has, it's quite something to infect a greater ratio of people.
Borders and DG is fairly obviously down to cross border travel mixed with lower tier restrictions, but shetland is a head scratcher.
Is it? I'd say its probably more in line with Scotroutes thinking. The virus wasn't there, till it was. Easy to blame English folk but as you yourself have said plenty of folk up here have been travelling to the usual places. A lot of haulage traffic through D&G as well.
I think the smaller Scottish counties having higher rates is a stats thing dues to smaller populations.
Dunno, our rural block is at about the same rate as the towns, was much higher than where I am at one point. You would think with less people the rates would be lower (since less contact) but that doesn't seem to play out.
Indoor mixing has definitely been very visible up here with some before and over Christmas, though less obvious now as I think the recent massive number of case for us has shocked most. We have a mix of ultra 'paranoid' who want us to be in full lockdown, don't want anyone one coming without testing before and after ferry/plane and the other extreme who think it's totally over played.
Despite being tier 3 the LA are restricting use of internal ferries to essential use, reducing ferry and bus service and very much putting out a tier 4 feeling with a number of shops and cafes remaining closed after Christmas even though they don't need to.
Is it? I’d say its probably more in line with Scotroutes thinking. The virus wasn’t there, till it was. Easy to blame English folk
I'm not blaming english folk, wind that agenda in, it's awfy coincidental that it's the border lands though, eh?.
It's about a direct transmission route, rather than any other sentiment.
Worrying noises out of Raigmore Hospital (Inverness) in the last 24hrs. Opened up 3 extra covid wards (that have obviously shut as their primary function) and hospital numbers going up exponentially. Not a significant amount of capacity left. We clearly have lower numbers in comparison to central belt but a much reduced infrastructure too. Pointed conversation with my mother last night - she has spent the pandemic is the luxury of going through the motions in a part of the world where the reality was that you were unlikely to get it even if your social distancing and hygiene routines were not the best. She thinks she's getting it right but she is laughably bad at it. Now's the time for people like her to step up their game.
Maybe people presenting themselves at NHS earlier now, and better treatments in hospital, meaning more folks in hospital? A downside of having better treatments is there folk are in beds for longer, as they're not dying.
A friend of mine died in wave 1, he stayed at home choked up for 2 weeks before going into hospital, put on a ventilator for 3 weeks before he eventually succumbed.
Was only 50, no co-mirbidities other than carting a bit of extra timber.
I often wonder if he'd went in earlier....
Is it? I’d say its probably more in line with Scotroutes thinking. The virus wasn’t there, till it was. Easy to blame English folk but as you yourself have said plenty of folk up here have been travelling to the usual places. A lot of haulage traffic through D&G as well.
As someone living in the Borders very much this. As pointed out above the Borders has a population of a little over 100,00, so the rate per 100,000 is pretty much the actual number of cases. Before Christmas there was something like 34 cases in total with 28 of them being in one care home and the remainder generally clustered around the court in Jedburgh. I know plenty of people (including many working at Borders General and Edinburgh Infirmary) who were all but ignoring the guidance. I was invited to come round to use a hot tub for the evening by a nurse going on to night shift at Edinburgh the following day. I declined but others were happy to go. Living in a quite picturesque area the number of visitors from other parts of Scotland in higher tiers was also very noticeable. Much more so than visitors from England.
Edit.
it’s awfy coincidental that it’s the border lands though, eh?.
Not really. Since March of last year the Borders and Dumfries & Galloway have had the lowest rate of infection and death rate in mainland Scotland despite being the border with England. Indeed, for the Borders, the risk from the Lothians has been of far greater significance than rural Northumberland.
As a slightly weird stat that I came across - there were more deaths in the Borders from accidental poisonings in 2020 than those attributed to coronavirus.
Easy to blame English folk
If I was going to have a border to keep out the plague-carrying second homers it would be at Drumochter!
With a travel corridor to Edinburgh please - after all our numbers are low and we have been behaving!
On the stats thing. when the incidence is so low in a small population a dozen cases changes the rate hugely whereas the same dozen cases in a large population make little difference.
I’m not blaming english folk, wind that agenda in, it’s awfy coincidental that it’s the border lands though, eh?.
I'm not but I am? You posted that graph saying shut the border, what other conclusion is there? If you're not saying that then it would help if you didn't actually say that. It's like the folk here constantly blaming "out of towners". How do they know they were from out of town? Oh they've never seen them before or they had a Glasgow accent. Solid evidence there.
On to the actual point, as I said D&G sees a lot of haulage traffic plus both areas have attractions for those that can't be bothered sticking to the rules regardless of where they come from. There are so many variables at play who bloody knows how it got there, the one thing we do know is that folk in those regions aren't keeping to the rules themselves.
Maybe people presenting themselves at NHS earlier now, and better treatments in hospital, meaning more folks in hospital? A downside of having better treatments is there folk are in beds for longer, as they’re not dying.
Compare these two graphs
Numbers in hospital rising, new admissions falling. That certainly suggests folk are in hospital for longer.
*Note the second graph hasn't been updated for a while so there's a potential lag increase yet to be reported
There are so many variables at play who bloody knows how it got there,
As a sometimes resident of D&G, my money's on the big ASDA in Carlisle.
One of the D&G outbreaks was directly traced to cross border movement was it not?
As a sometimes resident of D&G, my money’s on the big ASDA in Carlisle.
Corona doesn't get spread in supermarkets silly!
Just found this line in the DMBinS release for today
you should NOT stop during your ride
Any idea where this appears in the guidance?
After asking this same question on Facebook, this bit has now been removed from the DMBinS guidance.