Drugs or substances aren't the issue here at all, neither is their addictiveness, the issue is someone pushing their self destruct button, and there are many many ways to do that. You can talk about the evils of drugs all you want, but personally I'd say it's far more beneficial to look into the psychological causes rather than the symptoms.
My daughter could well have gone the same way, her friend did. They had been offered drugs at the local ice rink, her friend chose to try/take them, my daughter refused and called me to go pick her up there and then and never went back. She was only 13 at the time, what a mess her friend ended up. Her friend came from one of the towns oldest, well established/respected families(on both sides)but on the death of her alcoholic father it was revealed she had been abused by him!!
Daughter is now a teacher and it would seem that good proportion of the kids she teaches are from substance abuse homes. Given her experience she is hell bent on giving these kids the best education and support she is able to.
As mentioned above some people have an addictive nature, I do and cocaine nearly did for me, not death but my marriage, my wife found out and it was hell for a long time, I stopped taking the coke and we are still together but it hangs over us, a real skeleton in the cupboard.
The thing is that even after being found out, I tried legals and she found out again and she stuck by me again, having an addictive, hedonistic nature is difficult to control.
I'm clean now, probably drink too much but the drug demons have gone.
For now and hopefully forever.
I dont think yunki or others are saying EVERYONE has a choice to take drugs, for a significant amount of people it may seem the only option even if I personally dont think it is. Its much harder to see the best option from the easy option.
Ive seen a lot of people who are of average intelligience with good backgrounds, they could all of gone to university and attained good jobs. Instead they chose to drink, party and waste 4 years of their life. Im coming to the end of university with a job already lined up and most of them are still iving at home with part time jobs at tesco. Im not saying drugs made this happen but it played a part in some of their lives along with copious amounts of alcohol.
Whenever you drug-advocates (see, i can be small minded too) say those of us on the other side are being naive. How about you explain that point and stop talking shit. You are choosing to see our viewpoints as small minded and dont really know your own argument.
I can tell you, from first hard experience, a little story.
One of my friends got chucked out of his home by his mum, I offered to take him in. For the first 4-5 months he paid no rent until he eventually got a job. I told him he couldnt smoke in the house or smoke weed on the property but he ignored both of these simple rules. In the end he stopped paying rent so he could buy alcohol and weed. Is this fair on the people around you? no. He lost a brilliant girlfriend and lost ALL of his friends. Think about people who arent drug users when you take drugs and how intimidating and annoying drug taking can be for them.
Final word - just lock this thread now and bin it.
Whenever you drug-advocates (see, i can be small minded too) say those of us on the other side are being naive. How about you explain that point and stop talking shit.
you obviously missed it, so here it is again...............
the op is making the point that some peoples lives play out so that the 'choice' that you are alluding to is not the same 'choice' that all people have. that choice is determined by factors that are out of their control such as abuse as children, being raised in an environment where they are desensitised to substance abuse or they suffer from mental health issues.i'm sure there are many other factors.for all you know, amy winehouse could have been conditioned by any one or more of those factors and as a result, she'd hardly be making the same 'choice' about drugs that people not subject to those conditions make. it's easy to think that all people are like you, they're not. generally people are products of their environment and their life choices are always going to be predetermined by that.
I can't work out if this is the best or worse thread I have seen on STW, the thread it refers to is dross, but this is much more honest.
I guess I've excepted that is was certainly self destruction, but most real artists are FUBAR in one way or another, I have no idea if it was her childhood or not that made her that way, so best I don't judge her.
Hopefully others will see her as a talented young lady with troubles, so RIP Amy.
Most on here assume its drugs related, where as a lot of conditions can kill you without warning.
as for life choices, we all have them, and we are all able to formulate whatever life we want
nope.. you're still missing the point.. (are you on drugs..?)
try reading through TMs post again.. pay particular attention to:
it's easy to think that all people are like you, they're not.
I agree though that society can [i]help[/i] you formulate the life that you want.. and can even [i]encourage[/i] you to make the right choices..
Why do you have to use derogatory comments to make your point, very childlike.
guilty as charged.. I'm many worse things too but childlike is something that I'm not ashamed of..
You could take it as a joke if you were feeling inclined to do so.. 🙂
Dancake:
Deviant; you aren't special mate. everyone has a story or knows someone with a story like yours pretty much
....thats exactly my point, drug use is nothing special and for the bulk of people it is a recreational pastime, the odd idiot like Winehouse becomes a casualty, shit happens.
Got all the time in the world for people trying to block out mental illness or escape from memories of abuse.
Just perhaps if drugs where legalised and available on prescription, just like methodone is now, the state would have control of the addicts, and would be able to formulate a plan to control the effects and the theft that accompnies illegal drug abuse
don't think that would personally work ... it would remove the "i'll not do it cause its illegal" barrier that stops people getting into it at the choice stage that we are all talking about. I think it would filter more people into the drug route.
As to the choice thing. Everyone has a choice ... 99% of people as they grow up, know that drugs are illegal ... just that for some people, the choice of going down the drugs route is an easier answer to the question .... all the issues of addiction blah blah is sitll a consequence and after effect of the choice.
the odd idiot like Winehouse becomes a casualty
Got all the time in the world for people trying to block out mental illness or escape from memories of abuse.
that's a contradiction though possibly.. or do you know something we don't..?
I don't think all drug users are on 'self destruct' or 'can't control myself' or stuggling with a bad history.
Many of them are on 'it won't ever happen to me' 'this is totally safe cos I am not an adict' and 'this is a fun social thing'.
I think this class of people are a really big problem as they see drugs as harmless and NOT self destructive and end up introducing more vulnerable/damaged people than themselves to substances while advertising them as fun and harmless.
I say this from experience as at a bad time of my life, an otherwise intelligent caring person suggested they could obtain class A drugs for me to 'try' and that I would feel better and have no problems.
As I was already having life issues, I said I was not interested as I could just see everything getting worse by adding drugs to the mix. It seemed an insane option to take, to make things more problematic.
Not long after one of their close friends died of alcohol/drugs. The social group was very very shocked and could not believe one of their own could possibly overdose as they 'knew how to handle stuff'. None of them gave up their drugs, not in memory of their friend, nor caring for the fears of their loved ones or family.
This sort of recreational drug user cares nothing for their loved ones and only for their own fun. Its not about self destruct its about ego and about manipulation of the emotions of people who care about them.
I feel sorry for people with rubbish backgrounds, but I feel contempt for 'recreational users' who drag vulnerable people into a culture where self destruction can take hold for them, if not for the originators.
Sterling point midnitehour and not one that I had considered today..
Crickey - well said
project - on what capacity did you work with drug addicts?
The problem is that recreational drugs [edited] will send you to the grave pretty bloody sharpish, because they combine a) fun with b) actual addictive qualities, exacerbating any tendency to go in at the deep end.
Trouble is this is the sort of rubbish that stops the real messages getting thru. Telling drug users things that are nonsense means they will not listen to the real message.
Not all drugs are the same, many drugs have very little risk.
Truthful education is the best weapon that and sensible government drug policies that actually reflect the real risk and dangers. take drugs out of the legal system by and large and treat them pragmatically thru the health and social care system. Apart from anything else it would save the country billions in cost of enforcing the law and in the crime and ill health that occurs because of prohibition.
Midnight hour. Coke? It can be very destructive in that way - it turns people into selfish stroppy gits.
I dont think there was anything thier recreational group would not try, stuff I had not even heard of at the time in the papers. Often intake would be multiple substances in one evening with alchol. I don't know how they though they could keep track of dosages in those circumstances but they were very confident it was utterly safe and not in any way destructive, just fun. I was staggered how shocked they were when one of them died.
They looked down on heroin users as scum and out of control. Beneath them.
Eventually my friend ended up flushing his stash of coke down etc the loo one night as he found it harder and harder to stop using, despite him still claiming it was recreational and of no risk at all to people like him. He was still in control. He bought some more by the end of the week. I felt very sorry for his family.
A drug user being nice and seeming to live a normal sort of life leads you to thinking this is a nice person with a career, so his views on stuff being harmless must be realistic, its not someone nasty or broken like an 'addict' is so often portrayed. This images sucks in the vulnerable and innocent by giving a sense of normality and the illusion of invincibility.
What was good for him ALWAYS came before what was good for his family though. We lost touch, so I don't know what happened with drugs to him or his social group long term. I just hope they did not drag vulnerable people into the 'its all a laugh and such fun' fantasy. I was lucky that I was not so desperate that I took what was offered.
I told someone else this story once and their response was 'how could you turn a chance like that down? I would have loved to try it.' Scary.
And yes, he was stroppy. Other than the drugs problems and offers, he was in some ways the best friend I ever had, which perhaps sounds a contradiction given the drug offer, but it was a complex association. I often wondered what he would have been like without all the stuff he and his mates took. I often used to wonder if I would hear he was dead. Massive paranoia was a side effect of the stuff he took to. Marijuana for that one I think 🙁 added to the stroppy coke. God knows what the other stuff did. I was never in a drug culture myself, so was very ignorant of many of the side effects and mood alterations until I met him. I still miss his good side. I am glad though I was strong enough not to follow his path.
I'm a bit pished and havent read this thread, but I.feel sorry for the winehouse, she was caught up in celeb culture and i can only imagine he pain of being dropped, and can also see how the drugs might have been hard to deal with. Choice? Bollocks. Its situation and life pressure, not choice.
RIP Amy Winehouse... 🙁
it is an interesting one Yunki. i think people who just think it was her choice and just saying say No is the answer are true are over simplifying the real world. As a similar example there are christians who tell us that the way to stop teenage pregnancies is to preach abstinence to people.whilst this would work if we could convince everyone it is unrealistic to think that it will convince everyone. Now I have no demons over gambling or alcohol [ nor drugs anymore] and have never really partaken in either. Should I feel no sympathy for those who have died from alcohol abuse or lost their house from gambling as it was choice*? Should I give an addict a lecture on MTFU and just stopping? Should I just accept we are all different and we all have different demons. Drugs are the same those who have never seen the appeal/taken any seem to think it is just personal weakness and the addicts deserve it themselves. Whilst I can see this view it lacks empathy IMHO.
No one sets out to be an addict of anything and most people partake of drugs, alcohol, gambling whatever without becoming an addict. It is too simplistic to say it is choice in the sense it is normally used.
Yes not doing it works but given the history of humanity it seems clear wpoepl will do drugs and some people will be unaffected by this and some will become addicts and some will die for thier addiction. thsi included fags and alcohol whihc kill more addicts that illegal drugs FWIW
I've been at the 'abyss' of addiction a few times now. It's not somewhere I like to be, and only a sensible lightbulb inside of me kept me from completely teetering over the edge.
THe last time and final time I left the UK for 7 years to get away from a lifestyle that didn't have a pleasant end to it.
I was fortunate enough to be able to see what was happening, but there were a few times where things could easily have gone either way, one last mid week bender could have continued the party for another two weeks easily, which would have been never ending.
Did Amy W have choices, yes. Problem is that sometimes the choices seem very far away, sometimes unreachable. And when you haven't got full control of yourself and the chemicals do, it can become nearly impossible.
I've known addicts who have their whole life consumed over getting high. I appreciate why.
I've also known addicts that carry out normal life around their habit and hold down fairly high ranking jobs.
Is the loss of Amy W a 'great' loss? not particularly, she is after all just another dead drug addict, who happened to sing.
My mate Jordan is another dead drug addict, he had talent as well, he survived years on and off the street dealing with life. Was his life a 'great' loss? To me yes, but to the rest of the world, he is just another dead drug addict.
"No one sets out to be an addict of anything"
Probably true, but we all know its a possibility if we start taking stuff. No one can say they are 'unaware' of the risk.
I have come across 3 people who were certainly proud to be hooked or to partake. 2 were alcoholics and 1 was the one I mentioned in earlier posts. They were not all in the same social group.
There was a definite sense of feeling special, about being a special person because of taking drugs. Both the alcoholics had that same sense of pride in being somehow different in a way they perceived as achievement and saw themselves as above non users, the non users being lame and pathetic.
I must admit it puzzles me why such destructiveness is viewed so positivly and I have never decided on a full conclusion as to why the pride. But it does give them emotional control and power over friends and relatives that perhaps other comparable family members or friends don't have.
Making others afraid or worried on your behalf, or even angry with you, are all ways of getting what you want or manipulating people via emotions. I really think for [i]some[/i] drug or alcohol users, its all about a massive ego and an urge to control and use other people. If they were not abusing substances to do it, they would find other ways to fulfil the same sense of huge self importance. But perhaps that in itself might count as a form of mental illness, like the more extreme world of narcissists and sociopaths?
midnighthour - I think its quite hard to unpick all that, Did they become like that thru the drugs? Were they merely creating a persona to justify themselves?
I had a shared university room with a guy that shared the name of John Lennon's killer. Within a few weeks he was in with the substance abusers and became an increasing pain in the arse to live with. I decided to move out and had an interesting conversation with the university hall manager who gave me my hall fees back in cash rather than risk me carrying out the threats I made when he initially refused.
Midnighthour's comments ring very true. The guy thought his drug taking made him a star and winning the Space Invaders tournament a major achievement. He failed the first year. In the space of two months a talented mathematician became an anti-socail waster that stank of BO.
TandemJ - I dont truely know how any of them became like that as I knew none of them myself before they were into taking various things.
I have heard their own views and perspectives, but such are hardly neutral and may not be accurate as how many of us see ourselves with neutral perception or without adding shades of colour and self justification?
They all had some sort of problem in thier childhood, often of feeling isolated or rejected, but then so did I and I dont take anything, so a factor but not the only one.
To be honest you would need a time machine to go back and see with neutral eyes.
2 of them I know or have known pretty well. They had lives that were comfortable and ok though early 20's to mid 30's so it was not ongoing misery or pressure. At that period they were both quite comfortable and had no major stress factors then, they did not know each other so its not a common factor.
I still believe the need to be very important and in control is a prime factor, but you see that in bullying managers, people who hit their partners, sneering at others and various passive aggressive behaviours. I wonder if its all in the same 'control others and feel self important' group, using whatever techniques seem effective to the specific individual - almost chance if you grow up to drink or instead bully the office secretary.
But I could be talking utter rubbish, its just my own observational theory.
Whatever the reasons (and I really did wish to understand) you end up with a certain sort of person who will destroy their own lives and feel no concern about destroying people around them, in order to see themselves as the centre of the universe. The trouble is, as I said first of all, they are the most dangerous to vulnerable people as they promote substance abuse as glamorous, non risky, high status and just for fun and because they hold down jobs and careers, it looks plausible. But perhaps not so 'harmless'for some of the people who follow their advice to just take some and feel better. Its very sad for all concerned.
Becoming addicted can be easier than you think - especially if it's a psychological addiction, not chemical.
I spent 6 months getting pilled up three times a week, because of the euphoric high separated me from reality.
Looking back, I wish it took me less than 6 months to wake up and realise the downward spiral I was in. Managed to pull myself out of it.
at the end of the day a poor girl has died, its very tragic, unfortunate and sad, I do not see why anyone has to be so down on her.
at the end of the day a poor girl has died, its very tragic, unfortunate and sad, I do not see why anyone has to be so down on her.
lots of poor girls die every year i just dont get why her life is more important of any of theirs,
ilovemygears, I agree with that but I also think people should be free to express their celebrity obession in any way they wish. It's still a dead girl. V sad.
lots of poor girls die every year i just dont get why her life is more important of any of theirs,
or less important..
I grew up in the east end of Glasgow. In my youth I grew up in fear of glue sniffers and in my teens junkies. I was attacked by a gang smashed on drink and drugs and but in hospital with head injuries for no reason other than because i was there.One of my attackers in later life was murdered by drug dealers another OD'ed.
I for 5 years help raise funds for a Drug charity and heard heart breaking stories of life's destroyed by drug addiction, people with no hope and lives on a road to disaster. Kids born it families who openly use drugs in front of children. Speaking to people who were clean after a period of addiction the one thing they all accepted was that they were responsible for their own actions, drugs explains it but doesn't excuse it.
The people that attacked me were the bad kids we all avoid as we grow up. That action of avoidance is the very thing that causes there isolation from normal society.
This is only one side of the drug problem but my experience has shown me that every junkie has their own story and its not so cut and dry.
I'm quite ignorant on this subject, the reason I'm commenting is threefold.
1) I've always steered clear of drugs. When at Uni the "weed" came around and I chose not to partake, my choice. A few other mates chose to toke and that was that. In the era of Acid I too stood well clear whilst some friends took part (although I did go to a few raves, boing boing boing)
2) I now have a very close friend who was into Acid, nothing else I'm told and they didn't take it to the max, just the odd pill here and there at these raves, since then they've not touched the stuff. But they have had experiances of being with a group that has dabbled in harder stuff and seen some incidents (I'm told though I've chosen not to hear about these incidents)
3) Having tried to pursue a life of a roadie back in the day I ended up being in the same bunch with a few that used to take performance enhancing stuff. I chose not too.
Looking back I think I've had enough experiance to classify me as "informed" yet I've always chosen not to partake. I have not been influenced by peer preasure, even when racing or within a group of friends I think I've been pretty open minded just that I've chosen not to partake.
You could say that I'm ignorant to the whys and wherefores of the drug scene, but I know enough about it to not get involved, which I think is a healthy way to look at the whole thing.
As for the events of Ami, I'm not commenting on the drug side of things, she just seemed to me to be a rather sad person looking for some sort of aceptance in a peer group of some sort. I do feel sorry for the loss though.
A bit less judging and a bit more understanding and sympathy would make all our lives a little bit better...
Personally I don't think any more than this needs to be said
Lose someone to drugs and it's a lot harder to be so opinionated. I bet the condemners of misuse have not known someone at the sharp end of addiction.
Sometimes STW is like reading the Daily Mail.
I have as said in my prev posts, I have known substance abusers/drinkers and I felt compassion for them. But compassion is what they often feed on - it took me a while to fully understand that. I also saw utter selfishness and how content they were to put their "much loved" families through misery, fear and anxiety, as well as being more than willing to knowingly encourage other people into the same behaviour.
I see addiction as complex and often with a sad background. I don't see it as acceptable to destoy others because of it.
Attention. Control. Ego. You can understand and sympathise with the driving need, but it does not make it OK.
I have not thought of this thread as specific to Amy Winehouse, but as something that raised a general discussion on addiction. But I will end with a quote from a newspaper yesterday, said by her father and I doubt he was being harsh, just stating a fact.
"What she really likes,’ said Mitch, ‘is for people to worry about her."
