[Closed] Drone Strike authorised by Cameron

Maybe Dave's just got a thing about people from Cardiff?

...and took all their weapons, that we supplied

I think they got it for being Welsh and don't forget, Wales votes Labour.

binners - Member

What if they were killed while trying to kill [b]Donald Duck[/b] in Disneyland Paris?

BASTARDS!

They were in Iraq (mainly). They weren't Syrian natives they come from all over. They have all but finished Al Quaeda (remember them?) too, so they are no shrinking violets.

So this completely different group of people, who have apparently come from nowhere, have defeated both Al Quaeda and the western backed freedom fighters in Syria. As well as taking on the Assad regime and the Iraq government forces (backed by the west).

Well that is amazing, and by that I mean it is amazing that anyone could actually believe that narrative..

No more Bernard Matthews turkey drummers and Mccains mashed potato smiley faces for those lads 😀

Personally I don't have a problem with the two nasty shits who snuck across the world so they could murder, rape and steal coming to a messy end..... In an ideal world we wouldn't have to do this, but we don't live in an ideal world. I would be happier if there was an independent review board for these decisions though.

Insofar as the we should just walk away from the middle east and let it rot, doing nothing can have just as extreme consequences as bombing, so this isn't just a case of do nothing and we wil be safe, do something and bombs go off in London.

So this completely different group of people, who have apparently come from nowhere, have defeated both Al Quaeda and the western backed freedom fighters in Syria. As well as taking on the Assad regime and the Iraq government forces (backed by the west).

Maybe Dave's just got a thing about people from Cardiff?

Fair point, but surely it would be cheaper just to drone strike Cardiff directly?

There is no nice comfortable one-size-fits-all narrative to fit cosily into our infantilised western good guy/bad guy worldview

Nobody really knows what on earth is going on in Syria. You've got a brutal dictator massacring people on an industrial scale. Other than that, there are all manner of groups, from all over the place, all with different agendas, all armed up to the teeth, all taking advantage of the total absence of security in the region. The total absence of security that was Tony and George's gift to them

I suggest you do some reading.

I suggest you do some thinking.

Factions rise and fall, warlords swap sides to suit their personal ambitions, but the majority of the people fighting are the same ones as armed by the west. That's the way it has always been in that region, and the failure to realise and deal with it is why western policy keeps creating even bigger **** ups with newer shinier weapons.

Fair point, but surely it would be cheaper just to drone strike Cardiff directly?

Ultimately, i suspect thats where we're heading. He's just testing the waters. Or maybe its a diversion tactic to distract the main intended target.....

Swansea

I suggest you do some thinking.

The government is playing into the hands of Isil. They want more Western military intervention in muslim countries because it helps radicalise more muslims into joining them.

We call them 2 dead terrorists, for other people they are 2 dead martyrs.

This wouldn't have been a gung-ho operation. Imagine the media reaction if they missed up and bombed the wrong house, or caused civilian causalities (which they didn't). Too much was a stake here.

They would have likely been monitored for months, with tapped phonelines, monitoring of internet activity to determine they were indeed part of IS, and were planning attacks against the UK. The house would have also been watched for days either by drones or SF on the ground to rule out civilian casualties prior to the strike.

I'm amazed so many people are against the strikes. Remember who we're fighting here, the extremist sect who have brutally murdered several british civilians, hundreds of syrian/iraqi PoW's, attempted genocide against the yazidi's and implemented Sharia Law in their captured territory. Anyone who is confirmed to have joined that group is a fair target imo.

I wouldn't be against sending ground troops in this case given the atrocities they're up to, they could be exterminated in a week with a modern army. Granted the other groups in the region aren't much better, which is the problem with that idea.

The thing that irritates me about this is the theatricality of it. I don't disapprove especially on legal or moral grounds, although obviously it could easily get out of hand.

The chosen justification (of course) is that they were a threat to the UK, from Syria. And I've no doubt there's a solid enough legal basis for it all, which obviously we won't see, because it's all super-secret. And of course, it would be hopeless to expect anyone to arrest some dickbag who is hanging out in Syria (although if he was really a threat to the UK in a direct sense he'd presumably need to maybe go there, which would make it easier). And of course we're bombing other brown people in the region anyway, which is OK if they're Iraqis, or Syrians or whatever other flavour of bastard is floating around being all ISIS-y. And there isn't the same legal problem with British forces killing citizens as there seems to be in the US. So none of it is all that much of a big deal, really. And indeed, British forces haven't really had much truck with super-secret flying robot-assassination as a tactic thus far.

But despite it being a somewhat irrelevant and legally non-interesting gimmick, it was a massive Prime Ministerial news-splash.

DrJ - why do you have an issue you with hairy car mechanics? Did you get a bad car service or something?

I wouldn't be against sending ground troops in this case given the atrocities they're up to, they could be exterminated in a week with a modern army. Granted the other groups in the region aren't much better, which is the problem with that idea.

Now there's a man who's watched ALL the right movies.

I wouldn't be against sending ground troops in this case given the atrocities they're up to, they could be exterminated in a week with a modern army. Granted the other groups in the region aren't much better, which is the problem with that idea.

I don't think it would be as one sided a battle as the press would like to make out, hence the reluctance to send troops in. IS fighters might at one point been an easy win, but they have a lot of battle hardened fighters now with a lot to lose, using modern equipment and understand how it works.

I wouldn't be against sending ground troops in this case given the atrocities they're up to, they could be exterminated in a week with a modern army.

[img] http://pics.livejournal.com/kensmind/pic/0013q57w [/img]

I wouldn't be against sending ground troops in this case given the atrocities they're up to, they could be exterminated in a week with a modern army. Granted the other groups in the region aren't much better, which is the problem with that idea.

They would have likely been monitored for months, with tapped phonelines, monitoring of internet activity to determine they were indeed part of IS, and were planning attacks against the UK. The house would have also been watched for days either by drones or SF on the ground to rule out civilian casualties prior to the strike.

You've been watching too many episodes of Homeland.

In reality, it's 'There's one, he's got a beard!' and bang - he's dead.

I'm sure you'd all be keen as mustard to be in charge of this decision making process, but I'm bloody glad I'm not.

In reality, it's 'There's one, he's got a beard!' and bang - he's dead.

That's almost as deluded a statement as IS could be defeated in a week. Well done.

"would people pleading for the rule of law, be arguing thus if these jihadists had been killed whilst trying to kill Aylan in kobani? "
The crucial words are "whilst trying to kill" that makes all the difference in both national and international law . To kill another where necessary to save life is self defence/defence of another and not a crime. To kill a man and others around him remotely on foreign ground absent declaration of war against that country when there is no evidence he posed a direct and immediate threat to any one in this country, that is a bigger and more complex question.
I don't pretend to offer an answer to the question but I am very uneasy about the politicians "trust me he was a baddy and the bystanders were asking for it too" response.

"The russians perhaps, they work by their own rules."
Which did not work in Afghanistan and cost them their empire, and have not been a big success in Chechnya which cost them their domestic security .

You've been watching too many episodes of Homeland.

In reality, it's 'There's one, he's got a beard!' and bang - he's dead.

Hardly, way too much was at stake if they got this wrong. The media would be having a field day if they bombed the wrong house. And all the people killed were confirmed militants who have featured in propaganda videos, so there's no arguing they were't members of IS.

Hardly, way too much was at stake if they got this wrong. The media would be having a field day if they bombed the wrong house.

Phew... its a good job thats never happened before then, eh? And if it had, we'd know about it... how?

And all the people killed were confirmed militants who have featured in propaganda videos, so there's no arguing they were't members of IS.

Well... that's what they're telling us, anyway. Not giving any evidence. Just telling us, and asking us to take their word for it.

Fair enough. I'm happy with that. Who's next then?

one of them was wearing a Cardiff city shirt what more proof do you need!

when there is no evidence he posed a direct and immediate threat to any one in this country,

The trouble is that the very nature of these decisions is such that you and i may never know what the justification was beyond what's been said. Ultimately it comes down to whether you trust the intel, and whether you trust* the people with the intel to make the decision based on it. It happens that I do, others clearly don't, and it'll be very difficult and probably futile to try to get us to change our positions.

* but if they subsequently are shown to have lied they should then be held to account appropriately. Chilcott, etc.

I'm sure you'd all be keen as mustard to be in charge of this decision making process, but I'm bloody glad I'm not.

+ 1,000,001

I find it hard enough to decide where to put my X on a ballot paper to decide who gets to make these decisions, let alone making them myself.

The russians perhaps,

Doubt it they have an even worse record.

I do wonder if people would have been less up in arms about it if it had been a Paveway dropped from a Tornado or even a missile from a Vulcan.

but if they subsequently are shown to have lied they should then be held to account appropriately. Chilcott, etc.

What a perfect example of judicial oversight. All hail the beacon of accountability to international law that is the Chilcott Report. Expected date of publication 2035 - possibly never.

"The russians perhaps, they work by their own rules."

Largely unsuccessful ones, their overseas campaigns weren't a great success...

Oooooooooo can we use more specific names for weaponry, and military shorthand. I'm feeling a bit... you know... tingly

Hardly, way too much was at stake if they got this wrong. The media would be having a field day if they bombed the wrong house.

WTF? Drone strikes endlessly hit the wrong targets / kill civilians. It's just called collateral damage and as they've all got dark skin and beards, no one really cares back in the West. It's only Western soldiers getting maimed by IEDs which makes headline news.

I wouldn't be against sending ground troops in this case given the atrocities they're up to, they could be exterminated in a week with a modern army.

Are you on crack? Billions of £, millions of lives lost in Iraq and Afghanistan stand testament to the utter inadequacy of our modern army

In reality, it's 'There's one, he's got a beard!' and bang - he's dead.
That's almost as deluded a statement as IS could be defeated in a week. Well done.

I wasn't saying it would be the best way forward and I would be against doing anything like that right this moment. Like I said the other factions who would fill the void aren't much better.

I was more pondering the fact that the coalition toppled the much better armed/equipped Iraqi government in 3 weeks. (not that I agree with the invasion of Iraq then) A ground strike would quickly reduce IS to an underground movement, rather than in control of large swathes of the middle east, and able to commit atrocities on the people in that area/ and plan attacks further afield with impunity.

/0\

A ground strike would quickly reduce IS to an underground movement, rather than in control of large swathes of the middle east, and able to commit atrocities on the people in that area/ and plan attacks further afield with impunity.

[img] [/img]

one of them was wearing a Cardiff city shirt

A ground strike would quickly....

Largely unsuccessful ones, their overseas campaigns weren't a great success...

So those who support these murders (let's call them by their correct name under international law) - would you be happy for foreign powers to start taking people out in the UK using drones?

I was more pondering the fact that the coalition toppled the much better armed/equipped Iraqi government in 3 weeks.

Isn't what actually happened that they realised they were never going to win in a conventional fight so they gave up immediately and abandoned their posts/uniforms - IIRC quite a few of them went on to become a fairly effective guerrilla force.... called ISIS or something like that.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/16/us-mideast-crisis-baghdadi-insight-idUSKBN0OW1VN20150616

What a perfect example of judicial oversight. All hail the beacon of accountability to international law that is the Chilcott Report. Expected date of publication 2035 - possibly never.

I wasn't using it as an example of how it should be!!