My brother found out the car insurance he'd bought had left his name off the policy (just his wife on it) when he shunted a car at the WE. Two cars written off, other driver has minor injuries, the police attented as it was on the A1, so he will be prosecuted for lack of insurance.
In mitigation, he paid for the policy (on his debit card) and has a valid gap insurance policy as well as a separate scratch insurance policy on the new car (just to point out this was a genuine mistake).
He could really do with some legal advice and he can't be the first person to buy car insurance and be accidently left off the policy.
Anyone know of any solicitors who specialise in this sort of thing?
He could really do with some legal advice and he can't be the first person to buy car insurance and be accidently left off the policy.Anyone know of any solicitors who specialise in this sort of thing?
Probably ones with a time machine.
Was it his mistake that he was left off the policy? I mean obviously he should have checked the policy documents that they sent through but the insurance co will have records of the calls he made when buying it if he did it over the phone.
If it was online i'm not sure how the cock up could have not been his fault.
Sounds crap though either way!
No insurance is no insurance, unless he can show the error was by the insurers missing his name off when he asked for it to go on?
Sounds like he can make some reasonable pleas in mitigation on the penalty, if not the offence.
There's a reason they tell you to read and check the documents.
It was online and they don't send the policy just a link to download it, which they probably never did or if so, obviously didn't check it....
With hindsight, yes they should have checked etc, but too late for that...
unless he can show the error was by the insurers missing his name off when he asked for it to go on?
This is one line of investigation, but taking on an inusrance company's legal team on your own is pretty fruitless, hence the asking for advice from someone whose been in a similar situation...
Was it done over phone - if so ins co may have recording
Probably ones with a time machine.
Bit harsh.
he can't be the first person to buy car insurance and be accidently left off the policy
It wouldn't surprise me if it was, I find it very hard to imagine how that could happen! Not that I'm suggesting it's anything other than a genuine mistake.
Anyone know of any solicitors who specialise in this sort of thing?
Hence this seems unlikely.
He has my sympathy though - that's a huge pile of shit to come out of a simple administrative cock-up. I hope common sense prevails, but suspect it won't.
Citizens Advice for basic legal advice, then if he did it over the phone contact the insurers, 90% record calls, ask them for the evidence, if he has Court date, ask that he speaks to the duty barrister dealing beforehand so he has time to show his case as he won't get much opportunity to talk in Court.
If he can evidence it was a genuine mistake then that will go a long way to reducing any ban and fine. But he also has a duty of care to have checked the policy documents when they come through.
He has my sympathy though - that's a huge pile of shit to come out of a simple administrative cock-up. I hope common sense prevails, but suspect it won't.
yes, two cars, medical bills, could be looking at best part of £60-100k bill...
If he can evidence it was a genuine mistake then that will go a long way to reducing any ban and fine
That is the least of his worries, 6 points and a small fine....
The insurers will be able to provide a copy of his online application - easy to check where the error occurred.
The insurers will be able to provide a copy of his online application - easy to check where the error occurred.
Tricky one, they know if they admit an error they are instantly on the hook for a £50k+ payout, hence they will go into default mode of saying 'your problem, not ours'.
Plus these things aren't a single form, you have lots of different pages visited to add additional drivers etc, so piecing it all back together won't be trivial.
yes, two cars, medical bills, could be looking at best part of £100k bill...
Though arguably that's partially down to a physical cock-up, presumably on his part, too... sorry, not particularly helpful I know.
unless he can show the error was by the insurers missing his name off when he asked for it to go on?
Don't they send you the documents and ask you to check the details before the insurance starts? I think that put's the responsibility back on the person who took out the insurance.
A good one for this is called White Dalton. Loads of bikers use them.
A good one for this is called White Dalton. Loads of bikers use them.
Thanks, will look into this.
Edit: looks like they're bikes only though....
Tricky one, they know if they admit an error they are instantly on the hook for a £50k+ payout, hence they will go into default mode of saying 'your problem, not ours'.
Well, they can't not give you the details, and if they are found to have cocked it up they will be paying for more than just the accident.
Not everything in this world is a conspiracy to do over the little guy.
Though I assume the names on the application are pulled straight through to the policy documents automatically so I doubt the oversight was by the insurers.
I've seen errors on insurance paperwork before. Stopped a car once as the database said no insurance. Very irate driver insisted he had. He stomped in later waving his certificate, then went very red and quiet when I pointed out the registration was wrong and he had insured someone else's car 🙂 Didn't do him for no insurance though as it was obviously just an admin error - not sure who's error mind - but he did have to walk home to phone his insurers then walk back for his car once he'd sorted it.
Didn't do him for no insurance though as it was obviously just an admin error,
That's what the police said at the scene as they'd never heard of an uninsured driver with a gap insurance policy as well as a separate scratch policy on a new car. Up to the CPS if they prosecute, although that's in the noise compared to two cars written off plus medical bills + compensation etc..
My brother found out the car insurance he'd bought had left his name off the policy (just his wife on it)
It was online
So he insured it only in his wife's name as the primary name, but then forgot to add himself on as a named driver? That's the only way it could've happened.
Every online insurance site asks for the primary driver's full name and details first, then later on if you want to add any additional drivers.
So was this his car he was insuring in his wife's name even though he's the primary driver??? That's not allowed so he better make sure his story's straight when he talks to the insurer! Hopefully it is his wife's car though.
That's what the police said at the scene as they'd never heard of an uninsured driver with a gap insurance policy as well as a separate scratch policy on a new car. Up to the CPS if they prosecute, although that's in the noise compared to two cars written off plus medical bills + compensation etc.
The actual vehicle is insured though yes? Just not him on the policy? Therefore the insurers will still have to deal with the injury and vehicle damage claims, they will deal as "RTA insurers" if they somehow worm out of that, which is rare, then the Motor Insurers Bureau would deal with the injury claims under the Uninsured Drivers Scheme. Therefore the insurers do have good cause to actually investigate whether it was a genuine cock-up
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTA_Insurer
https://www.mib.org.uk/making-a-claim/claiming-against-an-uninsured-driver/
The actual vehicle is insured though yes?
Well only with his wife driving?
Not being legally trained, I don't really know what the deal is.
Everyday he gets a completely different story from his and the 3rd parties insurer, so no one seems to have a clue - hence my post....
One guy said 'yep sounds like our mistake, we'll look at the form you filled in', next guy said 'we don't have online records, your problem'.
So he insured it only in his wife's name as the primary name, but then forgot to add himself on as a named driver? That's the only way it could've happened.
Correct, she is the main user (ferrying kids about), he gets the train to work and only uses it occasionally.
Seen this shit before when you use the comparison sites . They often. Don't drag all the data through.
Had it when doing insurance for my van .
Did comparison thingy. Phoned them to ask a few questions and found out half the info supplied hasn't been put into the quote.
Not much help in the aftermath but shows its easy done- I doubt he is the first
Doesn't have his own car does he ? No possibility of third party on wife's car via that ?
You either add an additional driver to a policy or you don't. I always buy car insurance online and the process is pretty foolproof. Not sure how it could accidentally happen.
Hope he gets it sorted out though.
As scud points out, all third party liabilities will be covered regardless of these circumstances.
Yes but insurance will seek to reclaim from uninsured driver
As scud points out, all third party liabilities will be covered regardless of these circumstances.
Interesting.....
Do they still bill the uninsured driver for it, would be a bit odd billing the person who bought the policy they've paid out from...
Ah right, I don't know about it from that side trail_rat.
If it was proven that he made no attempt to take out insurance in his name, and the insurers had dealt under RTA Liability, then yes they have right of recovery against him, but very few will actually seek to do so, especially if he can evidence that he genuinely sought to take out insurance with them as you have said.
but very few will actually seek to do so, especially if he can evidence that he genuinely sought to take out insurance with them as you have said.
I very much hope this is the case....
Seen this shit before when you use the comparison sites . They often. Don't drag all the data through.
Happened to me as well, though I caught it before paying.
Altered a parameter, not sure what, probably mileage, and the named driver was removed. Sometimes something as simple as using the browsers back button rather than the site's can strip data out.
I was caught speeding and the ANPR showed that my car was uninsured though I was certain at the time it was. Police called the insurer who said it wasn't saying that the insurance I had was for a car I had sold a year earlier. I found the renewal letter which showed the premium I had paid for showed the newer car I was driving was insured.
The insurance company took my premium but failed to update their database and the subsequent ANPR register.
Insurance companies can make mistakes, thankfully I wasn't involved in an accident. Sounds like a nightmare OP, good luck
[i]Seen this shit before when you use the comparison sites[/i]
Ok - but you log back into the site and it shows you the details you've entered for the quote. It saves your profile. If you have a name missing from the quote because "it didn't save it"... well, prove it didn't!
(My ex's name still appeared on my Confused.com profile, despite being divorced for 2 years.)
Those scrotes on the Police, Camera Action type programmes seem to get away with this all the time.
Tell him to get a hoodie, a few tats and a can of Tennants for the court case and he'll be fine.
Oh, and to check the paperwork next time.
Who owns the car and was this the first year they insured it or has it previously been insured for both drivers?
Does he have any driving history that would have made adding him to the insurance costly?
Many years ago I got caught for driving without insurance due to an admin error. Submitted a plea in absence, figured "not a court in the world would convict me." Ninety quid and six points.
Good luck.
Many years ago I got caught for driving without insurance due to an admin error. Submitted a plea in absence, figured "not a court in the world would convict me." Ninety quid and six points.
I've suggested he spend £500 on a Barrister to plead his case. If the only consequence of the whole thing is 6 pts and a small fine, that will be a good outcome to a nightmare situation.
Take ye ass to Legal Beagles forum rather than an MTB one for a start.
There's two factors here:
1) Prosecution - No insurance is an absolute offence, meaning there are no mitigating circumstances, no insurance is no insurance - if he had been stopped on ANPR he would have got 6 points and a fine, but considering he's been in an accident he can expect a big heavy book to the thrown his way.
2) Financial - His wife's insurance might cover the cost of his car, but a lot of policies have exclusions around being driven illegally - they will not cover him for the other parties car and injuries. He's looking at a massive bill which will be enforced by the courts to ensure it's paid, somehow. Hopefully the other party is covered for uninsured drivers or they're going to suffer as well.
His only, and I do mean only chance of avoiding the mother of all nightmares it getting his insurance company to admit they made a mistake and they should indemnify him. Whether they’ll fight harder because they’ll looking at a big pay out who knows, probably. He should be on bended knee to them right now asking them to sort this out, but if he’s tried to pull a fast one to save a few quid, he’s knackerd, if they don’t play ball and he genuinely believes he’s an unfortunate victim find the money and employ a solicitor right now to fight them – because the court will not seek clarification from the insurance company he needs to get them to play ball before he ends up in court for the no insurance.
How did he actually take the policy out, over phone, internet etc?
Was he previously on the policy in years gone by?
What have the insurers actually told him?
He doesn't own any other vehicle so would have TP cover on this one?
Might be able to help more specifically then.
2) Financial - His wife's insurance might cover the cost of his car, but a lot of policies have exclusions around being driven illegally - they will not cover him for the other parties car and injuries. He's looking at a massive bill which will be enforced by the courts to ensure it's paid, somehow. Hopefully the other party is covered for uninsured drivers or they're going to suffer as well.
This isn't correct, the vehicle itself was insured, so the insurers of the car have RTA liability to deal with the injury claims as above.
[i]How did he actually take the policy out, over phone, internet etc?[/i]
Internet, he said
How did he actually take the policy out, over phone, internet etc?
See earlier posts, over internet.
Was he previously on the policy in years gone by?
Yes, although possibly not with this company.
What have the insurers actually told him?
Unclear, each time he gets a completely different story.
He doesn't own any other vehicle so would have TP cover on this one?
Nope, only one car.
1) Prosecution
Least of his worries, he doesn't need his driving license for work etc so loosing it would be a minor inconvience; his wife can just drive for visiting relatives etc.
A friend at uni was pulled driving his friends mums car. He had been insured for 5 years on this car.
He went to pals mum to ask for certificate, and she informed him she had changed insurance a week before and forgotten to tell him that he was no longer insured, to save money.
Court heard the evidence, including from pals mum.
He was still hit with 6 points and huge fine.
20 years later he still has to declare he was convicted of driving with no insurance, and it still costs each year.
Check the policy wording carefully - I know ours used to have an "anybody who can legally drive" is covered third party section.
20 years later he still has to declare he was convicted of driving with no insurance, and it still costs each year.
Are you sure?
Since April 2013, you no longer have to declare any ‘spent criminal convictions’ when applying for insurance.
Once upon a time I worked in complaints for Direct Line - these were always very messy, but only really in that the company stood fast.
How long had the policy been active for? Does he have the documents?if it's all very recent and he hasn't had a chance to check them yet then there is some comeback (possibly). If he has the docs then is on the hook for not checking them as instructed.
This isn't correct, the vehicle itself was insured, so the insurers of the car have RTA liability to deal with the injury claims as above.
It's not a self driving car though, so the fact it being being driven by an uninsured driver isn't going to help. OTOH, the uninsured fund thing might help the 3rd party out.
The IN10 is gonna happen. Not even worth thinking about that tbh
A few years ago I rang my insurance company to tell them I needed to change the vehicle on my policy only it turned out I didn't actually have a policy with them and hadn't done for several months. Considering I'd been driving all over the country in this time I was pretty lucky not to have been pulled.
After a lot of arguing the insurance company point blank said I had no insurance since it expired months ago, no records or call recordings etc to the contrary. Had I been pulled then no amount of arguing on my part would have convinced the police and even if they'd rang the company themselves I still wouldn't have been any better off.
However I was fairly certain I was insured so using a combination of my phone bills and data protection requests to the insurance company I was able to say that at x minutes past five I was put through to a particular extension for however many minutes. Strangely, once this info was provided they were able to find my call in which I asked for the insurance policy to be extended and the call handler confirming it was all done, sorted etc etc.
So once the mystery was resolved I asked what would have happened had I been pulled and they confirmed that at first I would have been shit out of luck but had I subsequently proven their mistake to the police and themselves they have their own insurance policy which covers them against admin errors at their end and any charges would have been dropped. Obviously this isn't their decision to make on the spur of the moment so it sounded like it was something which had happened in the past.
So basically, be prepared to do your own legwork.
Was he previously on the policy in years gone by?
Yes, although possibly not with this company.
I would be collecting evidence that he's always been named on all previous policies
It may not help, but it can't hurt to have evidence that supports it being a "genuine mistake"
Unless he has a bad record (speeding etc) then it would probably be cheaper* with him named than without..this would also support the genuine mistake defence.
* (mine always is when I name the Mrs on the policy rather than leave her off it, even though she literally never drives my vehicle)
Since April 2013,
It is probably 2011 when I spoke to him last about insurance.
We have deeper conversations these days - kids, wives, what river to paddle next, if SLX is worth it over Deore etc..
I have nothing to add but, if this is a genuine mistake, I hope it works out as well as possible for your brother - I can imagine he's feeling very crap right now.
[goes off to check my policy docs]
+1 Sharkbait.
I got done about 25 years ago. Was test driving a car and the owner thought his insurance covered me. He wrote a letter to the court advising the same and stating I was under the impression I was insured.
6 points and £100 fine. It's treated as an absolute offence. But that seems like the least of his worried.
As all that's being posted is conjecture based on half the story, I'll submit my 2p.
He'll be prosecuted for driving without insurance and get whatever is the standard fine and points for that offence.
The insurance company will pay out to the third party but not for the brothers car. He may even struggle with getting the payment from the Gap insurer as I wouldn't be surprised if it has a clause that the car must be insured fully comp for their cover to be valid.
Finally, I doubt the insurer will pursue him to reclaim the third party losses. I think they'll wash their hands of the situation to avoid potential liability for both cars. However, if they do come after him, he needs to lawyer up.
The insurance company will pay out to the third party but not for the brothers car. He may even struggle with getting the payment from the Gap insurer as I wouldn't be surprised if it has a clause that the car must be insured fully comp for their cover to be valid.
Absolutely this, GAP is there to pay the difference between an insurance write-off and the finance settlement figure or original value depending on the type of policy.
They're not going to pay the full whack just because it was insured, and they not going to estimate what the insurance payment should have been and then hand over the rest.
My only experience is knowing of someone causing criminal damage to 2 vehicles which the insurer paid c£8k to repair. They accepted a caution from the Police but the insurer didn't pursue collection after they told them they had limited spare income. They owned their own home, car and a couple of rented houses with a net capital worth of c£200k and earned c£40k pa as a financial adviser.
Sympathies to the OP's brother for a genuine error. If the insurance company are not to blame I see no logical reason why they ought not to pursue recovery, painful though that will be.
IANAL but I'd have thought the only chance would be to get the insurer to admit they made a mistake and cover him for the financial side of things. Once that's done hopefully you get the driving without insurance charge dropped.
I'm assuming the Insurance company wouldn't just admit their mistake though so as others have said you'd like need to go back to recordings etc. which may need the financial ombudsman to be involved.
Sympathies to your brother OP - this is a messy one and I've been in a similar position myself. Friend borrowed my car and said he was covered 3rd party because of his own policy on his car.
Ended up going into the back of someone. He wasn't insured because it turned out his partner was the principle named driver and the 3rd party cover only applied to her. My insurance company paid out on the 3rd party claim as noted above because of the RTA liability thing where they are the insurers of the car (even though I wasn't driving).
They didn't pay out for my car and then sought to claim back the amount paid to the third party from me (not my friend). Extremely tricky. We ended up having to get a solicitor because it was clear they'd taken the piss with the amount of time the other car was off the road, hire cars, etc. etc. The solicitor got the amount down but we had to pay. Legally it was me that was liable but we split it. Expensive mistake for the pair of us...
My advice - get a solicitor NOW. We didn't and that was a mistake.. Insurance companies are an absolute nightmare to communicate with and you need a legal expert doing this on your behalf to limit the damage.
This was 10 years ago.. I don't know if things have changed much. Just my experience.
then sought to claim back the amount paid to the third party from me (not my friend).
Seems odd as you weren't driving, so had zero liability?
Legally it was me that was liable but we split it
Unless your friend would have been left homeless paying the full whack that sounds extremely generous of you given the circumstances
Except giving someone permission to drive his car uninsured. If the friend/anyone had stolen the car it'd be different, obviously.so had zero liability?
Liable because they allowed uninsured driver to use your car - exactly why you need to cancel any motor insurance the instant you sell a vehicle.
Edit - beaten by zilog
Bingo Zilog - If he'd TWOC'd it I'd have been off the hook. I should have checked insurance details or said no.
But I give my permission so my insurance company came after me for the lot
I hope this story has a happy ending but I don't see one.
Does he have insurance on another car? May be covered third party by them?
Everyone saying he will definitely get six points and fine is not necessarily right. Whilst it is a strict liability offence and he will be found guilty - the court can if convinced on the balance of probabilities that the driver genuinely believed he was insured AND that belief was reasonably held choose no points and usually no fine. The exact circumstances and supporting information will make a big difference in that.
If he has RAC or AA cover it may be worth seeing if he has legal helpline cover with them. I found them reassuringly level headed and no nonsense for a chat to find out how things stood when I had a vehicle related legal question.
Can you work out who was covered from the cost of the policy? (Apologies if this is a stupid suggestion).
Update.....
The insurance company have admitted they were at fault* and coughed up £50k.
The charge, of driving without insurance, has been dropped as they now say he was insured and have paid up in full for all claims.
So, amazingly everything has worked out OK.
* They have since changed their website design so any additional driver is automatically added to the policy and the 'purgatory' state of being declared but not insured no longer exists.
Result
😯
Cripes.
Good one 🙂
Wanders off to check policy...
Mate got pulled on the m1. Mate had insurance for his Porsche, his motorbike, his Mrs' car and as he thought his work motor which was his Mondeo. Went in front of the beak with all the evidence of previous years policies etc, it just hadn't auto renewed this time. Tough titty, 6 points 650 fine.
I wouldn't hold out much hope.
I wouldn't hold out much hope.
Police have dropped the charge.
Always check to see if your car is insured using this [url= https://ownvehicle.askmid.com/ ]Askmid[/url]
As me work colleague once explained to me that the police use the same database to check if your car is insured.
Unfortunately, it is not helpful for OP at the moment, because it will only show if the car is insured or not rather than who is insured.
Also if you get your car insurance from the broker/agent etc, then the problem could be that the broker forgot to pay the insurer as I found out recently I was not insured for 8 hours.
I checked Askmid and I was not insured even when my car insurance company (broker) has already sent me document to confirm I was insured. I insured about 3 weeks earlier.
In the end after two phone calls my car insurer scrambled to pay the insurance company as I told him the council was going to tow my car away if I was not insured.
Therefore, the mistake can be done at the insurance company (broker/agent) late payment to the Insurer ... 🙂
Must read post before commenting. That's a result and a royal **** up by the insurers. After my recent dealings with them I've lusted them up there with estate agents and no win no fee companies for being shysters.
That’s a result, I’m really surprised they coughed for that.
Always check to see if your car is insured using this Askmid
No use here, the car was insured. Just not for the person driving it.
Great result though OP.
Good result, not always the case, mate of mines insurance got cancelled due to a failed direct debit, says he was never informed by the company, no crash but he got pulled over for speeding and hit with no insurance at the same time.
His insurance company didn't budge on the matter.
It's difficult, but the onus is on the driver, legally speaking.
The annoying thing is it just enocarges scroats to not even bother with insurance.
That’s not the same, that’s unequivocally his fault, surely? Unless the insurer cancelled the Direct Debit mandate?
The annoying thing is it just enocarges scroats to not even bother with insurance.
Getting done for having no insurance makes people not bother with insurance...? Eh?