Stay in whichever gear you are in, get what you need. So, for example, slowing down from a 50 mph road to red lights stay in 5th. If the lights change before stopping get 2nd or 3rd depending on the speed, gradient of road etc.
interested in this coming from an instructor....
at the most id drop from 6th to 3rd, then maybe neutral as im stopping. are you saying youd stay in 5th all the way to a stop if need be? maybe just dropping the clutch just before it stalls?
The carburetor / fuel injection system of your engine does not stop squirting fuel into the cylinders, just because you've engaged a lower gear and so increased the number of revolutions your engine turns per minute.
On a carburettor, no. On fuel injection it absolutely does. It's called (unsurprisingly) fuel cut and is just because there is no need to keep fuelling - with the gears engaged the movement of the vehicle 'takes over' spinning the engine and so no combustion is required to do the same. Once the engine speed drops to around idle speed, the fuelling ramps back in and the idle controller takes over. If it's calibrated well (which it blooming well should be!) you won't notice it at all.
[i] tinybits - Member
(with a little bit of engine braking)[/i]
In them slightly olden days when brakes had a vacuum assist, it was important to keep the engine running, so combined brake and engine braking was prescribed. It was also important for those cars which had power steering during that time.
However, today and for a few decades now, improvements mean the brakes do not need assistance from the engine, ECUs keep the engine running in all but the most severe stall events. So it's quite sensible to rely on the brakes alone to reduce speed when coming to a stop.
TLDR, but
got genuine chuckles from me 😀Duggan - Member
1 million pages
Depends what you mean by clutch wear. You don't wear the plates with the pedal depressed, but as mentioned several times you do wear the release bearing and I had one of those go in a relatively modern car - I'm sure they do still go in current models.
Well, anecdotally, in a quarter century of driving the only time I've ever had to replace a clutch or anything related to it is when I got a car whose clutch was radged to start with. So I must be doing something right.
There's also the entire VW / Audi range that has an auto hold. So you don't put the handbrake on and the brake lights stay on even though the car's out of gear and the engines switched its self off.
I tested this theory in my Hyundai after it cropped up the other week, and can confirm that its auto-hold does indeed keep the brake lights on. Three years I've had it and never knew.
sitting there with the engine running and clutch pedal down is wearing out the crankshaft thrust bearing, the clutch release bearing, stressing the mc and release cylinder seals.
[i] porter_jamie - Member
sitting there with the engine running and clutch pedal down is wearing out the crankshaft thrust bearing, the clutch release bearing, stressing the mc and release cylinder seals. [/i]
And you do realize OEMs test and develop in order for their products to survive all but the most abusive driving habits.
(thus not only risking fade, but also generating a lot of wear).
Is fade even a real thing nowadays? I can't say I have ever experienced it.
[quote=speed12 ]There is a huge amount to be said for planning ahead so that you don't have to use the brakes much, and the 'lift and coast' talked about above is great for regulating speed over a small amount (cruising basically), but if you are actively slowing it's brakes all the way.
I think there's some confusion of terminology here, with some people describing lifting off the accelerator (which I described as "lift and coast") as "engine braking", when to me engine braking implies changing down gears early so you're in a lower gear than you need to be. If you actually need to slow down then use the brakes - certainly in my car lifting off doesn't slow the car that much, most of the slowing down is done with the brakes.
[quote=tinybits ]I don't there's a single person who doesn't let up on the accelerator on the way to a stop
Lots of people (most?) seem to go straight from accelerator to brake, with seemingly no comprehension that's it's possible not to be pressing either. I usually tend to have quite a gap between the two with no feet on pedals - as mentioned above, the car doesn't slow down much whilst doing this, but it does save fuel and also tends to make for smoother driving.
[quote=Solo ] And you do realize OEMs test and develop in order for their products to survive all but the most abusive driving habits.
It's strange how cars still keep wearing out then.
[quote=franksinatra ](thus not only risking fade, but also generating a lot of wear).
Is fade even a real thing nowadays? I can't say I have ever experienced it.
I haven't either, but then I use engine braking on long steep downhills rather than riding the brakes. It certainly is possible to get it with modern brakes if you heat them up enough - the only advance being that the heat dissipation is now a lot better so you have to try rather harder, but I'm sure it's very possible.
Press ESP - Off
Press Sport Mode - On
Foot on Park Brake - On
Engage DS (Sport Drive) - done
Press accelerator to over 3000rpm - done
Release foot off Park Brake - whooosh.......
Thats what it says in my Manual.
Only done that once, ever in my Toy. Frankly it frightened me.
😀
Passed my test in 1965 in a Triumph Herald! Very few cars had more than four gears so changing down involved 4-3-2 and stop. 1st gear was non-syncro & required double de-clutching hence stopping in 2nd. Engine braking was the norm & yes the brakes were rubbish.
Drove lots of trucks with crash boxes or pre-selects & still occasionally double de-clutch without actually knowing I'm doing it. Driving on the brakes seems very popular & I often wonder how many sets of brakes they get through whereby I've hardly touched mine.
Electronic handbrakes: I just nudge the throttle & at the same time bring clutch to the bite. Almost immediately the handbrake is releasing & I'm smoothly away without any of the usual harshness if using the normal method of throttle+clutch. Something I learnt using airbrakes. I don't want to remember vacuum assisted trucks!
[i] aracer - Member
It's strange how cars still keep wearing out then.[/i]
Only if you use them 😉
So now I now why so many drivers sit at junctions with their brake lights on. Every day's a learning day. Add in fog lights and a right turn indicator, and some rain, then one gets the full benefit.
sadmadalan - Member
When I was taught, it was to use engine braking. My sons were taught not to do this, but instead use the brakes.Which is right?
Which is right... I don't know. I do know it's cheaper to replace a set of discs and pads than to sort a knackered engine.
Solo - MemberAnd you do realize OEMs test and develop in order for their products to survive all but the most abusive driving habits.
[i]goes to check name on front of building, checks signature on email[/i] - er yes, i do. i work at one.
aracer - MemberHow long ago were you lot taught that you were taught engine braking?
Mid 2000s. But I was taught to use both as appropriate not one or tother. I couldn't say if this is standard- I'd done years on vtwin motorbikes so balancing rev, clutch, gear and brake was second nature. Is "what you were taught" that important though? Driving lessons aren't to teach you the absolute best way to drive, at the end of the day.
Solo - MemberBrakes to slow down:
Car in neutral/dipped clutch as you drift on the brakes to a controlled stop. Engine revs are at idle!Engine resistance to slow down:
Engage a lower gear to provide "engine" braking, engine revs climb, more fuel is used!The carburetor / fuel injection system of your engine does not stop squirting fuel into the cylinders, just because you've engaged a lower gear and so increased the number of revolutions your engine turns per minute.
What?
Fuel injection absolutely does cut fuel when off the throttle, which presumably most people would be if using 'engine braking' or 'lift & coast' or whatever people want to call it.
Every modern car I have driven with a 'trip computer' will show --- mpg or a fixed high mpg number when 'lift & coasting' as there is no fuel being pumped at that time. The momentum of the vehicle is driving the engine, so there is no requirement to add fuel.
Sticking the car in neutral, means that the engine has to squirt fuel into the cylinders to keep itself turning over (the momentum of the vehicle is no longer turning the engine), so you do use (a tiny amount) more fuel in neutral.
I suppose different people drive different ways and at the end of the day there is no 'right or wrong' when it comes to the question of solely using the brakes or letting the car slow down under it's own steam before applying the brakes.
As I have said above, I don't think that wear on a well maintained, modern engine under 'engine braking' is anything to be concerned about.
I've done 247k miles in my current car (bought it with 24k miles on it) and have always used engine braking to slow the car - whether that is just keeping it in 6th & lifting & coasting (minimal braking effect) or specifically changing into a lower gear to increase the effect. Engine, clutch & gearbox are still original, so I'll carry on doing it.
Front discs weren't changed for the first time until 119k miles & the second set lasted until 240k miles, so brake life is pretty good as well.
Driving lessons aren't to teach you the absolute best way to drive, at the end of the day.
Yup, they're a start point and you go on learning from your own experience, other people's experience, other people's mistakes, and sometimes your own mistakes. Try to be one of the competent, courteous, cautious, concentrated and considerate people on the roads.
Technology changes, adapt to it as necessary, if you are happier doing things your way and it doesn't make you dangerous don't worry about it. I don't much mind what other road users are doing with their handbrakes, clutches, auto boxes, brakes or steering wheel if they're:
In control
On their side of the road
At an appropriate speed
At a safe distance
In a sober non-drugged state
Paying attention to their driving and anticipating what to do next
Which is the majority of people most of the time.
On their side of the road
No harm in using the other side so long as no-one else is.
[i] porter_jamie - Member
goes to check name on front of building, checks signature on email - er yes, i do. i work at one. [/i]
I've worked for several OEMs and their suppliers for a couple of decades.
[i] slowoldgit - Member
Add in fog lights[/i]
They have their purpose. Sadly most folk appear to think that purpose is to activate and leave switched on for 3 months!
Clutches have come a long way since the cork and oil clutch on my 1932 Morris Major Six.
As has been said above depressing the clutch for extended periods trashes the release bearings and on certain engines the crankshaft thrust bearings. I've once had a clutch cable snap on me, whilst changing gear on the move, I'm certain I wouldn't like that to happen with the clutch depressed and in gear at a junction or in stationary traffic.
I'm certain I wouldn't like that to happen with the clutch depressed and in gear at a junction or in stationary traffic.
A few people have said variant of this sentiment.
Surely if the that happens, or your foot slips off the clutch for some reason (hit from behind perhaps), you still have the handbrake on? So even in gear you're not going to get very far before you hit the brake pedal?
(I'm tempted to try an experiment in the car park but I like my handbrake too much 🙂 )
[i] GrahamS - Member
(I'm tempted to try an experiment in the car park but I like my handbrake too much)[/i]
Best leave that stuff to Mr Block.
[img] 
[/img]
Roll VT!
Well if I'm there to be the other road user on the other side then someone is there, Cougar? if we're going to be pedantic. (Edit: I'm treating you as a normal forum user here 8) but then that's not entirely true because I felt it necessary to add this message) The closest close calls I've had have been caused by over-optimistic overtakers. That's why I put it top of my mini-list. I find driving across [url= https://www.google.fr/search?q=accident+frontal+les+landes&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=3_SwVp29A8P7aP3EhaAH ]Les Landes[/url] extremely fatiguing because you have to constantly survey the on-coming traffic and anticipate having to brake and take evasive action if a vehicle pulls out to overtake without enough time/distance.
I'm not a masochist so I won't be reading the whole thread, but to answer the OP, from when I did my last police driving course:-
1) Slow smoothly to a stop, handbrake on, into neutral, clutch out.
2) 'Acceleration sense' was encouraged, which was easing off the throttle to let the car slow itself instead of using the brakes, when safe and appropriate to do so - e.g. rolling up to some lights that were changing to red. If you were still slowing as the lights went green, you would choose the correct gear for accelerating from whatever speed you were at by then and off you went. What you didn't do was change down a gear then let the clutch out to slow the car that way, that's engine braking and got you a right bollocking.
I see that the thread is already six hours old so all the correct people will already have said this.
I think the brakes vs engine braking argument needs to really move away from wear and cost
I think the early days engine braking was encouraged because brakes were crap. Then brakes got good and people were encouraged to use them.
But I thought the current thinking was that engines are built to last, engine braking causes negligible wear, and using the engine to brake is more economical in the long term on a modern car, for a couple of reasons: modern cars cut the fuel when engine braking, and braking in many circumstances is just wasting energy. Plus selecting the right gears gives you better control over the car. That and not accelerating and braking every 4 seconds like a moron helps the flow of traffic.
Must admit I'm crap with the clutch. Handbrake is useless in my car, so I sit on the clutch all the time. Way I was taught was to put in neutral and lift the clutch when stopped, [i]unless[/i] I was amongst the first 2 or 3 cars at a junction - in which case I should be on the clutch and ready to go.
the correct answer is buy an automatic. my job title is global core clutch system engineer, or something similar.
[quo@the greatape,
No argument but why? Is is a wear and tear thing (I doubt it), maximum 'progress, or a smoothness and ability to concentrate on other things? I understand the police will have different reasons and requirements to myself, but always interested!
My UK driving instructor told me to use clutch rather than engine braking so I just followed his instruction as it was not my car.
When "learning" I sometimes just purposely used the clutch instead of neutral ... just for the sake of it.
Then raved the engine high and letting the clutch go slowly ... ya ...
He kept telling me it's a modern car and told me to step on it when joining one of the main road ... ya I did with plenty of late braking ...
😆
p/s: I drive a traditional automatic car now.
My first car had a dodgy idle control so would cut out and stall when the revs dropped. Not so bad at the lights but hilarious fun when it did it changing down gears on a busy road. I learnt to keep my foot on the accelerator at all times so it was often easier to ride the clutch.
I'm not sure there are that many hills in the UK where engine braking is required? I though it was the preserve of big vehicles and big hills where you would overheat your brakes?
I thought the definition of engine braking was using lower gears to slow down the car. If you are just lifting off then is the engine braking or is it jus wid resistance etc? Maybe that depends on if you are on a conveyor belt.
Way I was taught was to put in neutral and lift the clutch when stopped, unless I was amongst the first 2 or 3 cars at a junction - in which case I should be on the clutch and ready to go.
I was taught this until pass plus where i was also told that you should be fine even as the front car as you go on green not amber so you get a warning. It is only really because learners are slower and it takes some of the pressure off. I can imagine that instructors cars' clutches take a hell of a beating.
chewkw - Member
My UK driving instructor told me to use clutch rather than engine braking so I just followed his instruction as it was not my car.When "learning" I sometimes just purposely used the clutch instead of neutral ... just for the sake of it.
Then raved the engine high and letting the clutch go slowly ... ya ...
He kept telling me it's a modern car and told me to step on it when joining one of the main road ... ya I did with plenty of late braking ...
p/s: I drive a traditional automatic car now.
Holy shit. You've got a driving licence?
Well if I'm there to be the other road user on the other side then someone is there, Cougar?
Well, yes, of course, but that's wholly not what I said.
thegreatape - MemberI'm not a masochist so I won't be reading the whole thread, but to answer the OP, from when I did my last police driving course:-
I'm not a masochist so I won't be reading the whole thread, but to answer the OP, from when I did my last police driving course, last week, use an automatic with a stonking great engine and turbo 🙂
Funny how everyone here says they sit at lights using the handbrake yet i can't remember the last time the car in front of me considered not burning my retinas in a queue at night. I have learned to sit well back but it's still dazzling.
And i get a weird enjoyment from driving whilst attempting to use the brakes as little as possible
Sometimes when I'm bored I try to drive without using the clutch, I'm either saving it or killing it, but its a car so **** it.
masochist so I won't be reading the whole thread, but to answer the OP, from when I did my last police driving course, last week, use an automatic with a stonking great engine and turbo
Bastard! Swap you for a gutless, litter strewn and malfunctioning unmarked Astra?
No argument but why? Is is a wear and tear thing (I doubt it), maximum 'progress, or a smoothness and ability to concentrate on other things? I understand the police will have different reasons and requirements to myself, but always interested!
Sympathy (mechanically) for the car was part of it, and stability of the car (achieved with smoothness plus correct use of the 'system') was considered crucial, so I guess largely those two things. It's been a while...
Judging by what he gets to drive compared to what I get to drive, you might be better off asking kilo ^ 🙂
As we seem to have our wires crossed here, Cougar, I'll continue to express my dislike of drivers who aren't on their own side of the road when I'm coming the other way on the new stupid-risk-taking overtakers thread. I think my comments here were a little prophetic. 🙁 But feel free to use any side of the road you want if you can stop or pull over in significantly less than half the distance you can see to be clear and there is no-one coming the other way.
Well, edukator seems a bit touchy about something.
Anyway, handbrake, neutral, stretch feet. Nice and relaxed.
I'll continue to express my dislike of drivers who aren't on their own side of the road when I'm coming the other way on the new stupid-risk-taking overtakers thread.
And I'll wholeheartedly agree with you. I daily have to dodge corner-cutters and road hogs. But whilst you [i]aren't[/i] coming the other way I'll use all the available tarmac, ta.
But feel free to use any side of the road you want if you can stop or pull over in significantly less than half the distance you can see to be clear and there is no-one coming the other way.
Exactly my point, yes.
[quote=jonba ]I'm not sure there are that many hills in the UK where engine braking is required? I though it was the preserve of big vehicles and big hills where you would overheat your brakes?
Not huge numbers, but there are some - and plenty of others where it isn't essential but makes for smoother driving. Of the top of my head I can think of a couple of hills not too far away from here where I'll normally use one or two gears lower than it's possible to drive them in, which avoids having to use the brakes the whole way down, and I'm talking about more than a mile of downhill in both cases. Maybe my brakes won't be cooked if I do ride them all the way down, but if I use a bit of engine braking I know they won't be.
As I've mentioned a few times, I don't ever use engine braking in normal driving in other circumstances.
[quote=jonba ]I thought the definition of engine braking was using lower gears to slow down the car. If you are just lifting off then is the engine braking or is it jus wid resistance etc?
I'd agree with you on that and only describe it as engine braking when deliberately changing down a gear into one lower than necessary - but it seems some others are confusing the issue by describing lifting off in the normal gear as engine braking (strictly speaking there is an element of that, but in my diesel below 2k revs I don't think the engine provides much braking and it is mostly other things).
bearnecessities - Member
Holy shit. You've got a driving licence?
To be more specific UK driving licence ... UK! 😆
Not touchy. My contribution to the thread could be subtitled [i]"there are more important things in driving than worrying about whether you leave the car in gear while waiting at a junction[/i]". And that in the context of weekly threads on:
"Ive been caught speeding how much will it cost"
"The other driver was being a muppet" (but probably wasn't)
"Which version of car X, 174ps or 205ps?"
"Track day car for road use"
"Crashed my car how much to fix/replace"
etc
Can't be arsed reading 3 pages, in answer to the OP, I drive like your wife, never take it out of gear, clutch pressed down and brake pedal and/or held on clutch biting point if on hill (modulating with hand brake).
My last car (Mondeo estate) did 185000 miles on original clutch, may have done a fair bit more as I sold it on 185K. Based on that alone, I'd assume leaving it in gear doesn't in itself wear the clutch. However, other things do cause excessive wear which she might be guilty of and might be related to that style of driving ie poor clutch control
Edukator - you mean your not on stw to talk about cars? Whats up with you?
To add to the engine braking debacle - my usual commute involves a nice decent into Buxton, which, in the right gear you can nicely coast with no stress and not break the speed limit - except for far too many other drivers who absolutely must brake for every single corner regardless of their speed, the corners sharpness, the amount of gravel/ice/mud/water on the road or lack thereof etc etc.
Drives me nuts.
Only worry about things you have control over, which doesn't include other drivers, Dan.
Perhaps the other drivers are considering things you don't. Visibility for example, and speed appropriate to the conditions. Or maybe they aren't driving Gods, accept the fact and drive accordingly - with caution. I'm really really, really tolerant of people driving cautiously.
I'd agree with you on that and only describe it as engine braking when deliberately changing down a gear into one lower than necessary - but it seems some others are confusing the issue by describing lifting off in the normal gear as engine braking (strictly speaking there is an element of that, but in my diesel below 2k revs I don't think the engine provides much braking and it is mostly other things).
It's no different to pushing the brake pedal a little bit, or pushing it a lot. You brake a little, or you brake a lot. No different with the engine, you chose the gear based on the speed you want to go, whether you're speeding up or slowing down.
I dunno. I feel it's quite important. Essential even for winter driving in snow and ice. It surprise me that some people never do it.
Not read much of this thread, but just to add;
Used to have a works van with rubbish brakes (LDV), particularly when loaded. Couldn't reliably hold itself at some downhill facing traffic lights in town, so used to scare the crap out of following cars as we held it on the clutch in reverse.
Also remember a down shift to second on a back lane, the brakes showed no sign of doing their job in time, so dropped to second to lock the axle and slow it into the corner before exiting in third.
Weren't fussed about the vans longevity as it wasn't ours, it was horrible piece of junk, blew it up twice whilst I was there in an effort to get the boss to replace it, most useful thing was the box body on the back of it.
On the fuel cutting off when you let off the throttle, it can be tested, well it can on mine which might not be running entirely to design. If you drop straight off the throttle with a lot of revs it will slow down quickly, then realise it needs some fuel and then accelerate a little.
Driving cautiously is fine. Driving timidly, like you're not sure what the controls of your car do, isn't.
So damning of others but you just can't see that it's not the timid/cautious drivers that kill/injure people it's the ones that follow someone past a SLOW sign, around a blind bend, then through a poor visibility junction and judging that the caution being shown equates to "[i]Driving timidly, like you're not sure what the controls of your car do[/i]" overtake despite the fact the leading cars are accelerating back up to the speed limit.
Just accept that other drivers drive the way they do and concentrate on your own driving. Make it cautious, careful legal and courteous so that if anything ever goes wrong you will have nothing got reproach yourself.
This is a different thread edukator. Do try to keep track.
And no, there is a huge difference between caution ie not taking risks, and being inept, such as the morons who have to brake when a truck passes in the opposite direction or are incapable of driving within the speed limit, except once it's not there anymore ie the 40 in a 30, 40 in a 50 brigade.
For someone who's admitted to speeding today that's a bit rich. You are still slagging off other drivers but incapable of questioning your own attitude and behaviour, Dan.
Let he who has no sin throw the first stone (which is why I've been polite and persuasive rather call you names)
People in glass houses would be better not to throw stones at all.
Press ESP - Off
Press Sport Mode - On
Foot on Park Brake - On
Engage DS (Sport Drive) - done
Press accelerator to over 3000rpm - done
Release foot off Park Brake - whooosh.......Thats what it says in my Manual.
Only done that once, ever in my Toy. Frankly it frightened me.
I prefer a simpler method, with no modern interference!
Hold engine at 6000rpm
Sidestep clutch 😆
[url]
I used to be very pro engine braking until I had a fairly fast car with a performance clutch, the gearbox on overrun attempts to rotate and in the case of my car it ripped the torque tube (sort of a long bell housing). lesson learned.
[quote=butcher ]It's no different to pushing the brake pedal a little bit, or pushing it a lot. You brake a little, or you brake a lot. No different with the engine, you chose the gear based on the speed you want to go, whether you're speeding up or slowing down.
Sure, and if you want to slow down a little you ease off the accelerator. If you want to slow down a bit more you use the pedal just to the left of it rather than messing around with other controls.
I dunno. I feel it's quite important. Essential even for winter driving in snow and ice. It surprise me that some people never do it.
In normal driving conditions, there's absolutely no benefit to using anything other than your brakes to slow down. Sure in slippery conditions you might use engine braking to control your speed, but still not to slow down.
But given those thoughts I'm going to come back to your earlier post I was going to leave alone:
[quote=butcher ]using the engine to brake is more economical in the long term on a modern car, for a couple of reasons: modern cars cut the fuel when engine braking, and braking in many circumstances is just wasting energy.
As above, it saves no more fuel to engine brake - if as it appears you do mean to change down the gears. The engine will be using no fuel either way.
Plus selecting the right gears gives you better control over the car.
Using the controls designed to slow you down gives you better control of the car. If the engine isn't bogging down then you're in the right gear, and if you're braking to a stop then you it makes no difference what gear you're in, if you're not then making a single gear change to the appropriate gear for pulling away again is more efficient and leaves your hands on the wheel and you in better control over the car.
Must admit I'm crap with the clutch. Handbrake is useless in my car, so I sit on the clutch all the time.
Holding the car on the biting point? 😯
There's a big difference between going down through the gears to decelerate (outdated procedure which lessens driver control) and shifting into a lower gear going down a steep hill to control speed. The latter is an important technique because lengthy continuous application of the brakes can get them so hot you suffer brake fade (as you would if you took most road cars on a track day).
The biggest two downsides of going down through the gears and using engine braking to slow down are that all the braking forces are only coming from the driven wheels (particularly bad in a rear wheel drive car) and the braking effect peaks just as you've released the clutch going into a lower gear. I remember experiencing the risk of that when my mum was driving on an icy morning, downshifted before a T-junction and the driven wheels locked and we skidded along the road out of control... With the footbrake twice the tyres would have been sharing the grip and the ABS would have kicked in to help bring us to a more controlled stop, plus she could have intuitively lifted off the brake pedal.
We talked about the problems with engine braking combined with ABS years ago, Chiefgroove guru. I was advocating "clutch down and steer" and "brake hard clutch down with ABS" in icy conditions. Surfmatt was on the thread too! At the time I wrote:
ABS has its limits, it can manage the force being applied to the brakes but does not manage engine braking forces. When you go from gritted roads to sheet ice, engine braking alone can slow the road wheels faster than the ABS would normally allow. I've experimented and found the following sequence if you engine brake and brake but don't declutch on ice: You feel the ABS working initially then nothing, the engine revs drop and it starts to hunt as if it's fighting the brakes, then it stalls and you glide on with the driving wheels locked until you declutch. Try it on an empty car park next winter.