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All I can picture now is an overly fussy factory H&S officer insisting that the new bridge be placed flat on the floor.
It wouldn't surprise me....!
I found it really interesting working in NE Scotland. We take a Risk Benefit Approach, balanced and based around people as much as process and paperwork. We encourage reasonable risk taking and value the process of experiencing risk and minor bumps and scrapes.
Half of NE Scotland is working to oil rig standard of Health and Safety controls and paperwork - no walking up stairs without holding handrail, no mugs without lids, no standing on the supplied step ladder until you have undertaken the 16 hour Step Ladder Course, filled in a work job sheet, confirmed that First Aid is on Standby, that two bosses confirm that the paper on the shelf is indeed needing taking down and fed into the photocopier, and that the trained photocopier maintenance company representative is available to insert the paper correctly and safely.....Try discussing our (and HSE/Play Scotland/UK and Scottish Government etc etc) approach to someone who's only experience of H&S is the (overblown) example above. It is like speaking a foreign language....
I think my point being that to send a Risk Assessment to HSE for every near miss is premature and excessive
I'd not disagree with that, but at the point you're doing your submission for a reportable near miss I'd expect it to be pulled out, if only to check it's up-to-date/you can actually find it, incase HSE do ask.
(In this case depending on what the cover actually is it's also entirely possible it's down to someone else eg utility company, especially if it should be locked before and after access by their staff, again all stuff that should be in/with the risk assessment.)
That’s a really dumb argument, right there.
Of course it is. That's why I made it, in response to a dumb comment about parents responsibilities when the kids are in school. As someone just above said, kids are idiots - that's why they need a degree of supervision. Where that supervision ends is fairly obvious. If a teacher spotted a child lifting a drain cover, would the teacher allow it?
As someone just above said, kids are idiots – that’s why they need a degree of supervision. Where that supervision ends is fairly obvious. If a teacher spotted a child lifting a drain cover, would the teacher allow it?
@IdleJon - I might be mis-remembering but didn't one of you kids fall down into a drain at a CX race a few years ago!
It is called dynamic risk assessment - teachers are really good at it as they do it daily. An example:
A child runs in the corridor, all teachers say 'slow down, we walk inside so that we don't bump into each other and hurt ourselves'. The same child runs past the same teacher on sports day, and the teacher says....?
The plugs are a really daft example.
Todays lesson, don't put your finger anywhere you wouldn't put your willy!
If a teacher spotted a child lifting a drain cover, would the teacher allow it?
Like - just don't waste people's time with this nonsense.
(In this case depending on what the cover actually is it’s also entirely possible it’s down to someone else eg utility company, especially if it should be locked before and after access by their staff, again all stuff that should be in/with the risk assessment.)
There is a balance here though.
Risk Assessments should focus on the most likely and most serious things. A drain being lifted by group of children is rather unexpected and unusual. You are right, now we know it it is an issue, it can be added to the Risk Assessment and therefore control measures. if we think it likely again or indeed a serious enough risk.
We cannot foresee everything - and i have some doozy accident anecdotes if you really want some. To focus on the odd, unusual or unlikely just makes us all paranoid about every possible hazard and risk, even if they are not that important.
To then go down the route of our school Risk Assessment covering protocols for the company that lifts the drains for maintenance is also problematic. At what point do we stop our Risk Assessment and trust that another company has that Risk Assessment in place and will work to them? If we are considering the maintenance person Risk Assessment, have we checked the construction Risk Assessment and that it is built to standard? And what Standard is that? And am I qualified to check that standard as built?
We then move beyond and into systems thinking - where teaching the children, working with colleagues and adults to make these balanced judgements and have awareness is *as* important as the paperwork and process.
So dropping the school a note to make sure they know it happened, to then enact a quick review / check / new controls (if needed), record and move on is the balanced approach.
Sending a RIDDOR near miss report and Risk Assessment in is over the top, and likely to cause more issues of staff and pupils not reporting or engaging with risk management long term.
Todays lesson, don’t put your finger anywhere you wouldn’t put your willy!
Aged 9 is a bit young for that talk just yet.
I am backing out - once more I am arguing over something I need not. We are in broad agreement here - dont play with drain covers, and don't be over the top in reaction.
Fair point, well presented. Way off track.
I'd say he learned something at school today...don't play with drain covers.
Get the fat kid to sit on it
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/drain-cover-in-school-playground-any-rules/page/2/#post-12188140
I agree with @matt_outandabout, in the great scheme of things, this is a very low risk, probably hasn't happened before and sounds like the actual consequences (injury) are relatively minor. Yes, they could have been more serious, but I'd suggest that the risks of children getting fingers trapped in doors is much higher.
I'd check that the school are aware of the incident, and leave it at that. The HSE aren't going to be bothered getting involved, and from the information provided, it wasn't reportable by the school) under RIDDOR. If the cover is defective, then the school should get it fixed.
BTW, my job is a LA H&S Adviser, who's main area of work is Education & Children's Services
@IdleJon – I might be mis-remembering but didn’t one of you kids fall down into a drain at a CX race a few years ago!
I was wondering whether to mention that, but it is quite irrelevant. I think. I didn’t warn them about the dangers of stamping on plastic sewage covers. 😂
It is called dynamic risk assessment – teachers are really good at it as they do it daily. An example:
Believe it or not, I’m agreeing with you but disagreeing with the person who made the comment that it’s the parents’ responsibility to tell kids not to lift drains, or put their fingers in sockets. Disagreeing on an obvious point, I’d have thought.. once my kids leave my sight and are in your school then I’m relying on you to tell them not to poke anything into a socket, because kids are idiots and don’t always listen. Just because parents should tell kids things doesn’t absolve schools of taking some responsibility. And, of course, they don’t, hence my point about a child electrocuting them self in front of the teacher. 🙄
There is also the point about who, in 2022, tells their kids not to play with drain covers? We stopped playing in the street over thirty years ago. This isn’t something my parents ever told me, and I’ve never felt the need to warn my kids about the dangers of drain covers. But, carry on. 😂
Question is should the school/utility not have these screwed down so silly kids dont lift it, trap fingers or fall down it? What about a risk assessment.
Nahhh ... a total over reaction. The answer is Do Nothing.
Accidents happen and make other pupils learn from this incident.
I agree with Matt.
Being flippant, OP child did pretty well lifting a drain cover, most of those I've encountered have been seized shut. Same with access hatches for taps and access chambers for drains etc. The big cast covers weigh s ton and the flimsy sheet steel ones are normally packed full of crap and can't be lifted.
"Todays lesson, don’t put your finger anywhere you wouldn’t put your willy!" Oh sugar. The cat needs worming and you kow how you have to get those tablets down its gob. If the cat in for a nasty surprise?!!!!!
Kid has learned that something. He won't do that again or if his does it's natural selection/Darwins theory. at the village school where I work he would be told not to do it again. A bump note would be issued and the kid would be told that he wouldn't be allowed a knife in Forest School if he carried on being daft.
I wouldn’t ask for the risk assessment – paperwork does not necessarily make it safer
Agreed. But risk assessment shouldn't mean a piece of paper - it should be an activity. It's looking for risks, understanding them and deciding if/how to communicate and mitigate them that matters, the paperwork is only needed to prove you did the activity.
Phone the Daily Fail: "Child nearly killed by drain cover" is the headline, complete with photograph of said child & parents all sporting their best compo faces...
The school needs to be 1. aware it happened, 2. That they need to address the issue
I worked on a big project where a contractor had a life changing injury due to the mishandling of a cover. All utilities train their staff in how to lift them properly, why? Because they are accident magnets, backs, fingers, toes etc.
Reminding junior not to play with other kids playing with drain covers is also important, but he's a kid in what is supposed to be a safe space so the school needs to tackle the issue even if it's just a staff briefing
"What is all this ‘allowing’ of children to play / have fun, be ‘supervised’ at all times? Wrapping them in an adult led and controlled way ultimately fails to prepare them for life.
I would rephrase a lot of that around how you facilitate children learning to manage risks, relationships and creativity to occupy themselves. The best playgrounds I have been in the adults are barely involved – the children are too busy playing and doing what they want. Very few issues arise, and you end up with children well versed in making minor, age appropriate risk judgements (physically, socially and emotionally) in a primary or early secondary context.
By the time they hit an age old enough that the consequences of managing the risk – from crossing a road to being handed that big fat spliff – they know how to make judgements and deal with the emotions."
Damn right! It's not the STW way though...
If that’s true surely this is a near miss anyway and will need to be treated as such
At my employer, a near miss for the above would be instantly rejected and an accident report would be required.
A near miss is where an injury could have occurred due to unforeseen circumstances.
Never a good day 🙁
When I was in year 12 perhaps, I seem to remember getting given paperwork for a school pupils insurance policy where quite literally every loss had a value attached. Each finger was a different value, then obviously arms, legs, eye(s), life etc all had a payout value. We all joked if it was worth sacrificing a finger.
What does a digit pay out these days?
I once worked at an auction house where a guy came looking to invest some of his missing finger payout in some valuable coins. I had to open the counter for him to inspect the Krugerrand ... but he struggled to hold it with his phantom finger issues!
My kids go to a fairly unusual school. The tree climbing rules are "don't climb a limb that's thinner than your thigh" and they have 'stick play rules' and you have to do training to be allowed to play with sticks. They also have a river that they play in when the weather's good. Would have loved that as a kid. To my knowledge none of the pupils have yet drowned, speared or fallen to their death. Yet.
Kids playing with draincovers are not in a rich play environment, it's the paucity that attracts them to mess with the drain cover.
Drain covers hurt adults, some have life-changing injuries.
A small intervention could highlight the risk, the injury that has occurred and the lack of play benefits that drain covers provide.
The let kids play line laudable, I'm sure all the schools they talk about have kids with plenty of unstructured play opportunities and draincovers are the last thing on their mind. The school should be asking itself whether this is a one off or is it highlighting that they need to look at what instructed play opportunities there are if draincovers are the most attractive thing to 9 year old boys
Morning all
Quite swollen and painful yesterday so we went to the hospital and after 6 hours in A&E last night (Got back at 1am) - Two broken fingers, nail drained, tetanus booster and anti-biotics.
Spoke to the headmaster yesterday and he had been round most of the classes telling kids not to do it and it was recorded as an incident and we got a bump note, so they will be inspecting the covers. Hopefully a bit of a wake up call for the school.
We just need to wait for a kid to get run over next before they sort out the traffic and pavement parking at drop off and pick up.
@pieface yes that will be the school!
It sounds like a group of kids managed to lift it slightly and our kid was the last to let go!! Obviously messing with drain covers isn't wasn't one of the many things we thought to warn him about as we walk to school everyday, but I'm sure he won't do it again as he is normally the sensible one.
@shuhockey hope they get better soon, sounds like quite a bad accident.
The parking / traffic is a nightmare, however the school's passive apporach to reminding parents / children not to ride bikes / scooters / take dogs in to the playground via gentle reminders doesn't work.
If there's any weight you want me to put behind any other feedback about other issues drop me a line.