[Closed] Drain cover in School Playground: Any rules

I was a child once, but somehow, I still have all my digits, limbs, teeth and eyes.

Does the school have rules about not playing around the drains?

I daresay it probably can't be screwed down as it may be needed for maintenance access. They probably do have a risk assessment but realistically if a 9 y/o is dim enough to get their fingers trapped in a drain they shouldn't be messing with, then there's not much the school can do.

Perhaps a polite note to the school saying your child was injured and suggesting they look to secure the drain might be an idea?

Sounds like it was a good learning experience for your child though.

It does seem an unnecessary hazard for a school playground, though the main danger with drain covers near schools isn't trapped fingers, it's the high chance there'll be a killer clown lurking somewhere in the sewers.

Seriously!?

Yes this was the point. Should the drain cover be secured to stop lifting. I appreciate that they will need to lift it for maintenance but surely the person doing this would have some tools available to them!!

Friday night film will be IT!

Should definitely be secured in place, write to school and ask for their risk assessment for the playground. Now that it's happened can't say it's unforseeable and given that simple solutions exist to prevent it can't really do nothing.

I daresay it probably can’t be screwed down as it may be needed for maintenance access. They probably do have a risk assessment but realistically if a 9 y/o is dim enough to get their fingers trapped in a drain they shouldn’t be messing with, then there’s not much the school can do.

Are you Jacob Reece Mogg? We'd still have a textile industry if those kids weren't so stupid and kept mangling themselves in the looms.

*waves*

Director of national school grounds charity here.

It is covered under general risk assessments of the school building and grounds. As ever, it is impossible to predict sometimes what children and adults will play with or how they will use a space.

I would suggest that a note to the school to make them aware there was an incident around the drain cover would be good - children do not always let the right people know....This could be as simple as a 'don't play with that' rule.

Good advice from all sorts of folk such as Play Wales & Play Scotland, Tim Gill or even ourselves here - https://www.ltl.org.uk/understanding-risk/

.

The real question of course is what else is there to interest, engage, excite and encourage play in the school grounds - thereby distracting from lifting drain covers?

https://www.ltl.org.uk/resources/the-good-school-playground-guide/

https://www.ltl.org.uk/resources/playtime-revolution/

write to school and ask for their risk assessment

Aren't the teachers busy enough?

Just ask them if they'd thought about it and go from there.

write to school and ask for their risk assessment for the playground

Ah, the "nuke from orbit" approach. Then what?

Are you Jacob Reece Mogg? We’d still have a textile industry if those kids weren’t so stupid and kept mangling themselves in the looms.

Nope, just a parent.

The point--->

You--->

It's a long time since I was a kid.... back in the day the response would probably have been . . .

"I'm trying to imagine a drain cover light enough for a child to life but heavy enough to chop off a finger. A pinched "side of the finger" is actually what you need - no serious injury but you certainly know not to do that shit again."

Nowadays of course things are different.

On a slightly related note, drain covers here at work are not secured down at all and are a bitch to lift without involving several people and some metal bars!

🙂

If they've managed to lift it without a key it's suggest it isn't sat right on the frame, needs a look at

I wouldn't ask for the risk assessment - paperwork does not necessarily make it safer, and the only reason to ask for it is to pick holes in it from a 'what about?' Risk Deficit perspective (as most H&S are trained in and most of the public understand). Communicate that the issue has happened to the school, just in case they do not know, and the school will look / put something in place / bolt it down etc.

Let's be honest - the same injury could happen with any of the doors in school, fingers between desks etc. This is a bump/scrape, and needs a mitigation of somekind, but not one that requires the school and teachers to feel under pressure or wrong.

Aren’t the teachers busy enough?

Presumably there is a teacher supervising the kids in the yard to make sure that those kids aren't doing anything too stupid, like trying to open manhole covers and go exploring the sewers? Maybe they just need to told what the kids are doing when they aren't watching (or out of sight, around the corner, etc).

I'm picturing this more as a hinged grate to a kerbside road drain than a manhole or service cover. Those shouldn't be liftable by anyone without a lifting handle. I seem to remember lifting a gully cover as a kid which is how I know it was hinged.

My school had plenty of drain covers, and despite other injuries, I never lifted the covers.

Drain covers generally aren't screwed down as they are heavy. I suggest someone was levering it up !

Not the schools fault, you can't idiot proof everything.

Did 9yr old come home with the wound having been tended to by the school? if so, it'll prob be logged and someone looking into it, so maybe something to mention in passing when next dropping off or collecting from school?

Falls under the 'shit happens' category for me tbh.

I was once stabbed in the hand by another boy with a pair of scissors. I dont think the school had to re write their health and safety practice from it. I bet there is a bin store at the school. Imagine if a kid climbed on top and fell into some broken glass inside.

At a school i imagine there are literally thousands of situations that can arise that could hurt a kid and a huge proportion of it can be dealt with by 'well if you are going to be so stupid, you need to accept the consequences of your actions'.

I was once walking around a car sales forecourt. VW Dealership. They had those huge lights set into the ground. My young kid went and touched one and burnt his hand. Similar discussion was had about lights being hot and why would you touch one.

I think the question to ask is about playground supervision. Have any of the other kids been involved in / reported playground incidents that were not seen, even the usual issues of fights, bullying or other rough play. It would have not been an instant thing for kids to lift a drain cover!
Lack of playground or other supervision is a big issue in some schools and I don't know how they get away with it. A school near here there were repeated incidents and refusal to do anything if staff didn't see it happen. It did subsequently fail it's Ofsted (parents weren't surprised but apparently the head was and it was so bad he was instantly removed).
In summary ask very very pointedly about adequate playground supervision. And I agree that kids should be allowed to have fun and will hurt themselves sometimes but still need supervision to prevent it getting out of hand.

What is all this 'allowing' of children to play / have fun, be 'supervised' at all times? Wrapping them in an adult led and controlled way ultimately fails to prepare them for life.

I would rephrase a lot of that around how you facilitate children learning to manage risks, relationships and creativity to occupy themselves. The best playgrounds I have been in the adults are barely involved - the children are too busy playing and doing what they want. Very few issues arise, and you end up with children well versed in making minor, age appropriate risk judgements (physically, socially and emotionally) in a primary or early secondary context.

By the time they hit an age old enough that the consequences of managing the risk - from crossing a road to being handed that big fat spliff - they know how to make judgements and deal with the emotions.

the same injury could happen with any of the doors in school

Our infant school had covers to prevent fingers being caught hinge side, not sure about the primary school.

If the drain cover is a cast iron "manhole" type cover it shouldn't be lift able without a key or screwdriver. If it's pressed steel (as it's not traffic bearing) you might me able to lift just from the lifting handles. Depending on position I'd ask the school to put a large plant /  picnic table / other heavy object over it.

If it's a rainwater grate I'm not sure what can be done.

Re supervision - 1 teacher can't see everything that 50-100 children are doing. The school may have an e.g. no tree climbing rule but it's impossible to ensure that it's never broken.

In summary ask very very pointedly about adequate playground supervision.

This bugs me - like what? Based on what? Your long years of experience of monitoring and managing several hundred children at once? What do you want them to say that'll make you happy?

What is all this ‘allowing’ of children to play / have fun, be ‘supervised’ at all times? Wrapping them in an adult led and controlled way ultimately fails to prepare them for life.

I seemed to spend most of my childhood lifting grates and drain covers up, building ramps in the street, setting fire to things, smashing things, throwing rocks in impromptu but ill-advised rock throwing games, climbing trees, trying to spin roundabouts fast enough to make someone fly off, all sorts of ridiculous things. All outside school though. I'd have been quite pleasantly surprised if I'd been allowed to do some of those things things in a school playground. 😀 (I get your point though.)

@shuhockey - did it happen at a primary school in south Sheffield? sounds incredibly like an incident my daughter told me about yesterday. After hearing that I did think 'surely that should have been secured?'.

FWIW my brother tripped and fell over a raised man hole cover BITD causing a large wound to his knee and got £750 damages from the council(?)

always someone else to blame.

Really interesting to read the expert input on here from @matt_outandabout. Sensible guy!

I just wanted to add that that I agree that it's worth contacting the school to check there's nothing dodgy about this manhole cover. I recently fell through a cover that collapsed when I stood on it because the housing for the cover had disconnected from the ground. I was quite lucky to get away with just a sore shin and some bruises. As it happens it was right next to a primary school!

That's the thing, if it was an audi SUV coupe cabriolet SE deluxe progressenwagen alloy wheel that got damaged thered be a sea of froth a mile wide

9yr old nearly lost a finger or two (Judging by the blood and bruising)

If that's true surely this is a near miss anyway and will need to be treated as such, so the risk assessment etc should all be being pulled for submission to hse any how. Certainly if it wasn't already on their radar as a risk it should be now.

I'd imagine it'll want sealing down with the sort of rubberised mastitic stuff they use for doing exactly that in security sensitive locations.

Ultimately the school is a workplace and is covered by the 1974 HS act (which came about entirely because of a tragedy at a school), if the same happened at your place of work, what would the appropriate response be?

You're not being a dick by making sure they're aware of it and treat the accident as it should be treated, assuming your approach is "kids being kids" your probably don't them a favour as there's every chance next time the parent will not be of that opinion.

If they had lost a finger it would be a totally different matter.

As a parent of 11 and 13 year old kids, if mine had come home and told me about this, my response would be along the lines of:

"Durrr, don't lift drain covers then!".

As has been said, manhole covers should not be liftable without a manhole key, unless they are lightweight pedestrian only ones, but they won't cut your finger off if you get it trapped, unless his mate was standing on it! Yard gully covers are usually plastic, but big highway/car park gully cover are big cast iron numbers and I would be impressed if my lad could lift one of those at 9, so bravo if yours has. Congratulate him but tell him not to do it again!

They can be fixed down, maybe not the exact ones your school has but you can get them. I don't think asking the school if this is an option is a bad thing.

If that’s true surely this is a near miss anyway and will need to be treated as such, so the risk assessment etc should all be being pulled for submission to hse any how.

Wow.

Certainly if it wasn’t already on their radar as a risk it should be now.

I agree with that - a note to check they have been made aware will suffice.

Schools are deeply aware of their duty of care, often due to folk prematurely phoning HSE, Council, Lawyers, MP every time Hugo falls over a chair, as that Risk Assessment should be HSE checked to ensure it was correct. (None of which actually fixes the physical issue in the school grounds BTW).

There is a huge difference in how we assess play space and wider approaches to Health and Safety. You will find it hard to apply H&S at Work Act bluntly in a school grounds, or indeed for many learning activities (School rugby anyone?)

In a factory - the bridge is solid steel, painted bright yellow and covered in grip tape.

In a school playground - the bridge is wobbly, suspended off the floor, made of wood and chains and intended to offer risk and challenge.

I take no credit for this example: see Tim Gill

https://rethinkingchildhood.com/2013/04/22/wobbly-bridge-manage-risk-playgrounds-factories/

See also:

HSE on schools:

https://www.hse.gov.uk/services/education/sensible-leadership/index.htm

https://www.hse.gov.uk/services/education/sensible-leadership/common.htm

https://playsafetyforum.wordpress.com/resources/

And the ex-boss of HSE/HSE position statements.

‘Play – and particularly play outdoors – teaches young people how to deal with risk. Without this awareness and learning they are ill equipped to deal with adult life. Outdoor play and learning is an important part of our children’s education. HSE endorses the proportionate advice in the guide. We should all make sure that needless health and safety excuses do not get in the way of activities. Of course take sensible and reasonable precautions, but let young people play.’

“One thing kids never lack is imagination to invent their own games with the simplest of props. Obviously if a child is playing with a jagged edge on a tin container there is a risk of injury, but we would hope parents manage that risk. HSE has always encouraged children to learn through play, whether climbing trees, painting with their hands or throwing stones into a lake, we want children to enjoy life and all the experiences it brings.”

I should add: one of the few really good bits of work Mr David Cameron did IMO.

Common Sense, Common Safety which explores all this, including role of H&S at Work Act, Compensation Culture and how to deal with these things from a cultural point of view.

You’re not being a dick by making sure they’re aware of it and treat the accident as it should be treated, assuming your approach is “kids being kids” your probably don’t them a favour as there’s every chance next time the parent will not be of that opinion.

So Health and Safety policy and management is driven by fear of parents and litigation? A poor policy IME and IMPE

See my post above.

If that’s true surely this is a near miss anyway and will need to be treated as such,

Wow

Are you saying, if the child did "nearly loose two fingers"* it's not? Don't get me wrong, that doesn't actually mean it's anyone's fault, accidents happen, especially with kids, but loss of digits isn't just "stick a plaster on it" territory.

The point of near misses (and for the most part the HSE) is you learn from them, it's not about bludgeoning the school (or whatever) it's about looking at what happened, what the narrowly avoided outcome (two missing fingers) and figuring out if you can reasonably reduce the risk of it happening again.

so the risk assessment etc should all be being pulled for submission to hse any how

Which I'd expect to be part of the reporting process for the school for a near miss (amputation of a finger being a riddor injury), I'm not suggesting the OP sets the HSE on school.

*Of course there's every chance it isn't anything like that serious and it's parents being parents.

Fear of litigation by schools driven by unreasonable parent complaints gives rise to over the top bannings of activities and children with less freedom to imagine and play and less ability to fend for themselves in the outside world

@dangeourbrain
I think my point being that to send a Risk Assessment to HSE for every near miss is premature and excessive. Even for something that *should* it have happened is RIDDOR.

To discuss situation with staff and the pupils, note any physical changes, practice changes or 'rule' changes that are needed, compared with Risk Assessment, and then implement it all is a good response to a near miss.

I think the question to ask is about playground supervision.

I'd certainly check that the incident had been properly understood by the school, and to remind them that my child is an idiot.

I think all that is required is a wander around all of those areas where children play, and any obvious hazards are made secure. If its what I think it is I'm pretty shocked that they aren't already. It could be that normally they are but the last person to use them for access didn't secure them. Its not about H&S gone mad, its about some simple measures to make sure serious accidents don't happen and we don't need to supervise these children overly necessarily and that they can pay in safety.

^ Nail on the head.

Drain covers...lucky sod.
In my day it was only a picture of a drain cover to play with. And we were only allowed that for 45 seconds each before passing it on...

DrP

One of the roles of a school is to educate.
One of the roles of a parent is to educate.
Is it time to take on a degree of parental responsibility and educate the child not to lift drain covers ( and not to put their fingers in plug sockets)?
Schools are kind of busy at the moment, if the injury is as you say, then they'll be aware.
Perhaps next time you're dropping the kid off you asked wether the drain cover has now been secured, and a word has been given to the children in their class not to lift the covers. Then leave it at that.
A learning curve for the kid.

In a factory – the bridge is solid steel, painted bright yellow and covered in grip tape.

In a school playground – the bridge is wobbly, suspended off the floor, made of wood and chains and intended to offer risk and challenge.

All I can picture now is an overly fussy factory H&S officer insisting that the new bridge be placed flat on the floor.

Is it time to take on a degree of parental responsibility and educate the child not to lift drain covers ( and not to put their fingers in plug sockets)?

So, you'd be ok if your child was fried to death by putting her fingers in a socket while teacher watched because it would be the parents responsibility?

So, you’d be ok if your child was fried to death by putting her fingers in a socket while teacher watched because it would be the parents responsibility?

That's a really dumb argument, right there.