[Closed] Dope as a pain killer.

The word analgesic derives from Greek an- ("without") and algos ("pain").

I find the first spliff gives me the worst paranoia - this then abates with further use. I'm not sure about long term effects, as I am a long term user - ergo, I have no idea how I would have turned out otherwise.

I am sometimes a bit paranoid and insecure, but whether I would have been this way otherwise, who knows?

Thanks for the Greek lesson TJ 🙄

TJ - if its not a pain killer, why is it being licensed for pain?

Also opium based pain killers are no doubt more effective, they are also highly addictive and a lot worse for you. Hardly something you can use long term.

It is also an analgesic so you are wrong again (I'm starting to see a pattern here)

Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) and some other cannabinoids, either from the Cannabis sativa plant or synthetic, have analgesic properties, although the use of cannabis derivatives is currently illegal in many countries. A recent study finds that inhaled cannabis is effective in alleviating neuropathy and pain resulting from e.g. spinal injury and multiple sclerosis.

I haven't given any bad advice, I have shared my own experience, stated some facts, and shared some evidence.

You really are a strange chap.

THC is an analgesic in animal models of pain, and there's no doubt that the cannabinoid receptor is important in pain pathways. Away from the lab, though, controlled trials in humans have not been positive AFAIK, with no significant analgesia being observed. I'm far from an expert myself, mind - Do you know of any successful studies?

If you have access to the literature, one clearly negative study is described here: Pain. 2003 Sep;105(1-2):79-88.

That's taking THC under controlled conditions, as well. Smoking weed is a different story again.

Yeah smoking it is slightly different, there have been at least 85 cannabinoids isolated from the cannabis plant, restricting it to just THC is a bit, well, restrictive.

http://www.gwpharm.com/sativex.aspx

when I quit using cannabis I noticed a marked decrease in my pro cannabis evangelism.. 8)

indeed yunki indeed

Kaesae there was an interesting programme on Radio 4 this week that touched on some of the stuff you mention

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01cjwtd

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochrane_Collaboration

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iain_Chalmers

Sits some where between our views

Why do you think morphine, when used correctly, is addictive?

Do let me know, because it would seem you have some information/evidence that the medical profession is missing, and it might just change my practice dramatically....

DrP

Flow - you have given extremely bad advice. To suggest that someone who is probably mentally vulnerable should smoke cannabis is bad advice.

You have given no facts.

Painkiller and analgesic are synonyms

Cannabis is not an analgesic. It may have an effect on neuropathic pain. Same as it may have an antispasmodic effect and it may be a useful adjunct to analgesia in intractable and neuropathic pain. There is no analgesic effect however.

Also opium based pain killers are no doubt more effective, they are also highly addictive and a lot worse for you. Hardly something you can use long term.

Wrong. Long term usage of opiates has very little adverse effects. Unlike cannnabis

Long term usage of opiates has very little adverse effects

I see quite a few people in the city centre most days in a really bad way who would certainly prove that wrong!

AHAHAHAHAHHA!

So it isn't an analgesic, even though there is evidence to prove otherwise?

And you think opiate based drugs are safer to use long term than cannabinoids?

There are no [u][b]proven[/b][/u] long term side effects of using cannabis.

Keep them coming Dr TJ 😆

Why do you think morphine, when [b]used correctly[/b], is addictive?

DrP

Where is your evidence that it is an analgesic? You have been given several studies where it is shown not to be. Show me one decent study showing it to be an analgesic.

I know opiates are safer. This is why they are widely used. one of the safest drugs - far safer than paracetamol for example.

Why do you think morphine, when used correctly, is addictive?

DrP

Because it causes psychological and physical dependence, and tolerance.

Whats your point?

TJ

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/178/2/107.full

Cannabinoids are effective analgesics in animal models with non-opiate mechanisms predominating. There are many anecdotal reports (Grinspoon & Bakalar, 1993) of benefits in bone and joint pain, migraine, cancer pain, menstrual cramps and labour.

Five small RCTs (Table 3) show that THC is significantly superior to placebo and produces dose-related analgesia peaking at around 5 hours, comparable to but out-lasting that of codeine.

http://www.neurology.org/content/68/7/515.short

Results: Fifty patients completed the entire trial. Smoked cannabis reduced daily pain by 34% (median reduction; IQR = ?71, ?16) vs 17% (IQR = ?29, 8) with placebo (p = 0.03). Greater than 30% reduction in pain was reported by 52% in the cannabis group and by 24% in the placebo group (p = 0.04). The first cannabis cigarette reduced chronic pain by a median of 72% vs 15% with placebo (p < 0.001). Cannabis reduced experimentally induced hyperalgesia to both brush and von Frey hair stimuli (p ? 0.05) but appeared to have little effect on the painfulness of noxious heat stimulation. No serious adverse events were reported.

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v34/n3/full/npp2008120a.html

Pain reduction was significantly greater with cannabis compared to placebo (median difference in pain reduction=3.3 DDS points; effect size=0.60; p=0.016, all completers included; Figure 4). The results were consistent for the ITT analysis (p=0.020), and for the comparison based on the first week of treatment alone (median change in DDS pain =?4.1 and 0.1 for the cannabis and placebo arms, p=0.029). There were no evident sequence effects: the degree of pain relief achieved with active cannabis did not differ significantly according to whether it was administered during the first or the second treatment week (mean reduction in DDS points, 4.1 vs 0.96; p=0.13).

Flow 0

the first is a review - the studies referred to are small scale cannabis is used as an adjunct and becuses of this the data useless

teh remaining two are neuropathic pain where I have said it is known it has an effect.

None of those show cannabis as an analgesic.

Edit no side effects?

Five small RCTs (Table 3) show that THC is significantly superior to placebo and produces dose-related analgesia peaking at around 5 hours, comparable to but out-lasting that of codeine. Side-effects were also dose-related, and consisted of slurred speech, sedation and mental clouding, blurred vision, dizziness and ataxia. Levonantradol was also superior to placebo and notably long-acting, but almost half the patients reported sedation. Cannabinoids may have considerable potential in neuropathic pain (Institute of Medicine, 1999).

stoner dude argues with medical professionals about the effects of stoners dude recrational drug of choice

Its true kids drugs really do **** up your mental faculties 8)

TJ - find me some evidence it isn't an analgesic and we might get somewhere.

So far you haven't contributed to the thread at all, only disagreed.

Jusnkyard - TJ is as much of medical professional as I am a "stoner".

Ah, an interesting thread for once....

My experience, used ecstacy and speed all through the 90s rave scene....had some short term memory issues which reversed when i grew out of the scene and stopped using these drugs....also tried some mushroom and LSD trips on nice sunny days at college, fun but completely impractical for long term use....then played about with cocaine in my 20s when i was earning good money and hanging around with a dealer, no noticeable psychological side effects (that i noticed anyway)....also played about with Tramadol, very pleasant and more importantly legal which became a concern as i got older....

....one thing i have always shied away from though is cannabis use....unfortunately i've seen too many of my old ravey mates give up the 'chemicals' but continue smoking weed and to describe them as slow is an understatement....the crankiness if they didnt have a joint that morning is on a par with withdrawal from any other substance that becomes habit forming, the dulled stoned effect following a joint concerns me....some of them drive in this state which i cant abide by....but its ok, its natural they say.....seen enough people under 20 when i'm working custody duties who are literally shot away, when pressed on their drug use cannabis seems to be the common factor....in what bizarre way can anybody think that spending the day stoned is a good idea?....there will be negative side effects.
Part of the 'harmless' image of cannabis is that it is smoked (socially acceptable) and its natural....as others have said; heroin is natural, so is alcohol....they are also devastating if abused....the 'natural' argument is clutching at straws....most meds in the BNF are naturally occuring too....would cannabis users be so quick to defend the drug if it had to be intravenously injected?
Most stereotypes are stereotypes for a good reason....spending time with stoners is boring, its like being around somebody who is pissed all the time....painful and frustrating.

If you want better pain relief look at combinations of known, researched drugs....stacking things like Paracetamol, Ibuprofen and an Opioid together will often have a better effect than high doses of a singular drug.

(in my experience ecstacy used to shift a cold too....or it could have been the 12 hours in a club drinking massive amounts of water and sweating like a sprinkler....who knows?....best to pop some E's next time i've got a cold though eh?.... :lol:)

usnkyard - TJ is as much of medical professional as I am a "stoner".

You have been given several references to negative studies.

I am a registered nurse with decades of experience and a fair few qualifications including post graduate courses in pain control.

My sister is a nurse of 20 years, she knows no more than me about FS/ME/FM, let alone the effects of cannabbinoids on pain.

Its hardy something a nurse would study in depth.

You have been given several references to negative studies.

Errr, you haven't contributed anything, as usual.

Flow.. mate

I'm quite a supporter of the movement for therapeutic cannabis use to be taken more seriously..

as far as I can see you're not really helping.. 😕

Your right, I'm probably not. TJ has bored me to death as usual, I don't know why I let myself get drawn into his factless debates.

Flow.

Your sister hasnt chosen to specialise in those areas then has she?

A nurse working in a pain clinic, hospice or for one of the cancer services (marie curie, macmillan etc) will know more about the subject of pain than a nurse in a ward for example.
Most NHS trusts will sponsor further education for staff if the course being requested is relevant to the job being done....just because your sister hasnt undertaken post graduate study into pain management does not mean that TJ hasnt, not all nurses do the same job, work in the same areas, have the same skills or need the same knowledge.

teh remaining two are neuropathic [b]pain [/b]where I have said it is known [b]it has an effect[/b]

Hang on a second. You said earlier that analgesic simply means pain relief. So how does having an effect on pain make it NOT an analgesic? I am confused.

self restraint used.. public forum and all that.

molgrips - Member

teh remaining two are neuropathic pain where I have said it is known it has an effect

Hang on a second. You said earlier that analgesic simply means pain relief. So how does having an effect on pain make it NOT an analgesic? I am confused.

An analgesic stops the body feeling pain. Some drugs have an effect on neuropathic pain which is an abnormal response in the nervous system by reducing this abnormal response. Cannabis appears to do this.

so if you have a broken bone a painkiller will reduce the pain but a drug such as cannabis will not. If you have neuropathic pain then cannabis may reduce it. Cannabis may also reduce pain from spasm and may potenitate some analgesics. Also a feeling of well being engendered by cannabis may make you care less about the pain.

Does that help?

analgesics act on all pain response - cannabis may act on some specific abnormal types of pain response

because it works for a specfifc kind of pain [neuropathic] rather than general pain
It is not a general pain killer though it may alieviate the symptoms of certain somatosensory system related pain

I am assuming /deducing here tbh
EDIT:his post beat me by 39 seconds

Look It may be good for certain things and it should be researched but to argue that someoen should be getting an ill relative stoned for pain relief is perhaps a bit far.
I may "medicate" someone I knew very well if they asked but I would not "prescribe" it to anyone tbh

If you have neuropathic pain then cannabis may reduce it

What type of pain does the OP's mum have then?

In the first ever controlled trial of a CBM [cannabis based medicine] in RA [rheumatoid arthritis], [b]a significant analgesic effect was observed[/b] and disease activity was significantly suppressed following Sativex treatment. Whilst the differences are small and variable across the population, they represent benefits of clinical relevance and show the need for more detailed investigation in this indication.

[url] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=16282192 [/url]

Small sample though.

What type of pain does the OP's mum have then?

Neuropathic or myofacial, either way it will help.

It will also lift mood, help her sleep, reduce muscle spasms, and relax muscles, all very common issues in FM.

Like I said its helped me, getting a bit bored of saying it now.

Love this poem.
It's very appropriate here.

NEVER ARGUE WITH A FOOL

It is best not to argue,
But if you do at all,
Never do so with a fool.
A fool can defeat all.

He does not care for the facts.
He does not know debate.
He’s a stranger to reason.
Logic he can negate.

In the end the fool will win,
His logic is so strong!
Decides what he does not like
And then it must be wrong!

It’s better to keep quiet
When challenged by a fool.
Else, to prove his own wisdom,
He will make you a tool.

It is hence my policy
To not respond to those
Who ask questions not to learn
But to be bellicose.

How about I make a suggestion? the substance doesn't do any harm in small doses and is easy enough to come by, perhaps it would be best too simply try and see if it works 😉

Then the individual who might gain from it's use can decide based on actual experience?

You mean like I did Kaesae, what a crazy idea! 😉

OP if it works, don't expect anyone to believe you.

I have followed this thread as I am a smoker (now ocassional). I am mid 40's, professional and have a normal family life despite smoking for many years (a lot when I was younger)
I think there has been some misunderstanding on this thread mainly down to the word "analgesic"

TJ probably summed it up best when he said "so if you have a broken bone a painkiller will reduce the pain but a drug such as cannabis will not. If you have neuropathic pain then cannabis may reduce it. Cannabis may also reduce pain from spasm and may potenitate some analgesics. Also a feeling of well being engendered by cannabis may make you care less about the pain"

I have no doubt cannabis can cause mental health issues with some people. I have friends who stopped as it made them paranoid. Stopping smoking helped them so it does affect SOME people negatively. A good friend is a mental health nurse and many "patients" have used cannabis with negative effects (also alcohol and various prescription drugs are common sources of abuse)
However back to the OP. I hasten to add I have no medical experience so would get further advice before committing to anything however if his mother is suffering it MAYBE worth letting her try a very small amount to see if it helps, ideally sourced from someone you know and trust and before doing so I would research more from people with both views and away from a cycling forum known for people with strong opinions. 🙂
When my father had a bad back I gave him sone and it helped him.
Same as many things in this owrld, OK for some, not others.

flow - Member

It will also lift mood,

It may not. My personal experience is that it can raise or lower mood. I think you're probably guilty of assuming your own experience is universal tbh. People are complicated and react to changed states in complicated ways.

Whenever I have a fairly big crash I find a small amount helps me with the pain (although in fairness I'm not sure if it really does reduce pain, but I certainly care less about it, so the end result is the same) and it helps me get to sleep too.

I've tried various over the counter pills and nothing seems to hit the spot in quite the same way. I've not tried the stronger prescription pills as I see it as a waste of time / NHS resources - when I need it I need it (and its right here), I don't want to be waiting around at the doctors.

I don't use it during the day though - or indeed at all at any other time - so hobble around until the next evening or three until the pain goes away naturally.

Obviously it won't work for everyone, but doing it now and again it works for me with no noticeable side-effects. I see no harm in it nor the need to justify it further.

NW - you and Nacho are right, it dos effect everyone differently, it certainly isn't for everyone. Its worth a try though!

I love the ol' ganj...

have nothing but contempt for modern so called medicine, that focuses so highly on treatment that involves the prescribing of drugs but not on the healing of body or mind.

As long as there are individuals who stand to make a fortune from the sale of such drugs and as long as the drugs are time and time again proven to be harmful when so called clinical studies have shown they are safe, that contempt will remain.

The issue and subject of this thread is the use of cannabis or grass etc as a usefull form of pain management, which it has been proven to be in the case of people suffering from pain.

If those suffering from pain are varifying that it is effective, perhaps that should carry more weight than a bunch of studies carried out by researchers.

No offence gentlemen but this blind adherence to facts and figures that are funded and produced using money that is contributed by third parties is questionable, just as the motives, procedures and findings are also questionable.

This thread has a topic that does not involve products manufactured by multi billion pounds global companies, is there any chance you can set aside your inflexible perspectives and simply stick to the topic

Generally doctors all over the world administer drugs from various manufacturers, funnily enough 99 percent of them have no connection to the manufacturers of the drugs they prescribe yet these doctors own studies tend to agree with the stated rates of a drugs side effects. You'd think if 100,000 of thousands of doctors were prescribing various drugs then some of them would eventually find a flaw in big bad pharma's drug safety statement? Wouldn't you. But noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.....hippies around the world continue to this day to ascribe to pre enlightenment thinking and subscribe themselves to idiocy such as homeopathy and chiropractors.

You are correct bwaarp, thats why they are licencing cannabinoids for medical use.

One word, Sativex. Look it up and educate yourself about the medical world a little more. There is a time delay between people realizing a drug is useful and it coming to market. About 10-15 years, you will see more cannabis based drugs coming onto the market soon.

I have already read about it in depth, I have mentioned/linked to it on this thread many times.

Then what's your problem. If the drug is slowly being approved for various disorders and being legalized in a controlled fashion then I fail to see the ****ing point of this thread and the idiocy found within. It's smoking the damn stuff which can vary in quality and dosage that I think some believe is the problem here.

Also +1 TJ on CFS.