I genuinely don’t understand your reasoning here. If your prices go up, which they will, all you will end up doing here is finding yourself building up a debt. Unless you plan on reducing your consumption in line with the increasing cost that is.
I live from my disability benefits, I simply do not have anywhere else I can cut expenditure to pay increased costs therefore I’m at that stage where I do not give a **** anymore
Absolutely nothing like the poll tax. That involved people refusing to pay, being fined even imprisoned for not paying, there were riots, protests. It was short lived as it turns out it was a shit idea all round.
DD, no they can’t just help themselves to your money. They contact you for any changes, I can change the amount is seconds, pay extra and withdraw too all without contacting them. On top of that save money.
@somafunk you probably know already, but Octopus have a fund set up to help people who are/will struggle. It’s absolutely worth contacting them sooner rather than later.
I'm not sure it's a useful campaign TBH.
Its not addressing the underlying problem of wage suppression and running essential services for shareholder's of profit making companies.
I get that utility companies making disgusting profits and driving working people into debt for the basics is terrible but the chattering classes withholding their payments for a bit will not really help. You might get a blip in cash flow, which they'll just make up for later, the share values might dip, but that only benefits the wealthy again as they hoover up some extra cheap shares which are almost guaranteed to rise again a few months later...
Pressure needs to be brought to bear on the government to re-regulate the energy sector, if necessary to take it back into public hands...
We're reaping the whirlwind from the last 30 odd years of privatisation, did anyone ever really believe private companies would put margins and share values before customers?
Doesn't really matter whether the utilities are privatised / regulated or not, they would still buy gas on the wholesale market which the government can't control. Wrong solution for the current crisis. Its not the utility companies making the huge profits, its the people getting the gas out of the ground.
I get that utility companies making disgusting profits and driving working people into debt for the basics is terrible
As an Octopus customer I got a letter / email from them this week; the salient point is pasted below
To date, Octopus have absorbed over £150m of increases, to keep our costs lower for existing customers, but we simply can't absorb it all. Putting it in perspective — in a normal year, we'd usually pay £1.5bn for the fuel we supply to customers. This year it's more like £9bn. There's more about this below — but to be clear, we have never made a profit and won't do this year.
No energy supplier can solve this problem — this isn't an industry issue, it's a consequence of war. This is why we've been calling on government help for all customers, regardless of who their supplier is.
I wasn't sure on that so googled and found this
which seems to back it up - if their gross is £25M (on turnover of £1.9Bn, so GM = 1.3%) - I can well imagine nett margin is negative.
I simply don't see the gas and electricity providers as the enemy here.
Lots more info at https://octopus.energy/blog/energy-crisis-information/
Don’t really understand it, they may raise direct debits but they’ll still only charge you for what you use, you could go to paying the specific usage off each month instead but it’ll still cost the same overall?
Depends, my provider has definitely been in "taking the piss" mode for a while. They constantly raise the DD despite me being in a fixed tariff.
Comparisons are being made with the Poll Tax. People refused to pay and it was abolished
Yeah but they still had a debt against them and that was only buried in 2014, I wouldn't fancy a debt hanging over my head for the next 27 years.
did anyone ever really believe private companies would put margins and share values before customers?
At least two of the big boys are toying with a plan to keep a firm grip on our essential services and not lose any money in the process:
Under the proposals, first reported by the Sunday Times, commercial banks would put cash into the state-backed fund, which suppliers could then draw on to fund measures to freeze customers’ default-tariff bills at the current price cap, £1,971, for two years.
The cost of the scheme would then be paid back over 10 to 15 years through a surcharge on bills or via taxation.
A surcharge on bills or via taxation the privatised companies don't lose. Their losses will be nationalised but their profits will remain privatised.
So if they're talking about extracting money from us both via bills and dipping their sticky fingers into government general tax funds, where's the difference between that and re-nationalising energy Companies in order to absorb wholesale gas costs over a decade (minus the need to find dividend payments and fat cat's salaries)?
Are you two not listening, it's not the utility companies making the money, it's the energy providers. In the example above the money from the banks would help pay for the energy along side what people pay, it doesnt stay with the utility company. If more utility companies go bust the cost will be passed onto us like it was last year.
Nationalise the utility companies and they still have to pay huge prices for the gas and electricity, if they keep our bills low the government will have to make up the shortfall which would be paid for through taxation so we end up paying anyway or other services will get less funding, probably both in reality.
Nationalisation is not the answer in the situation. The energy providers were never nationalised.
The energy providers were never nationalised.
I honestly don't understand what you mean. Are saying, for example, that the Central Electricity Generating Board was never nationalised?
Even local authorities were once energy providers.
it’s not the utility companies making the money,
I am fairly sure that utility companies make money. Are you suggesting that they are run as non-profit making organisations?
That was all based on the coal economy where the electricity generators used nationalised coal. Even the gas came from coal. That's all ancient history, our power is generated from natural gas predominantly (and is what we are generally using for domestic heating). The natural gas providers were never nationalised, Shell, BP etc, unless you are intending to try and nationalise international companies your nationalisation plan falls flat. Nationalise the electricity generators if you want but they will still have to buy gas on the international markets. Maybe you want to reopen the mines?
Are you suggesting that they are run as non-profit making organisations?
Octopus certainly seems be loss making according the links above. Quite a few clearly weren't profit making last year as they went bust.
. The natural gas providers were never nationalised,
Yes they were.
That was all based on the coal economy where the electricity generators used nationalised coal.
With respect I don't know what you are talking about. It wasn't just coal that was nationalised, the power stations themselves were nationalised.
You said "the energy providers were never nationalised" this isn't true. And I am genuinely baffled as to why you are saying it.
Maybe you want to reopen the mines
Would that be a bad idea?
Quite a few clearly weren’t profit making last year as they went bust.
So you are admitting that they can't operate without making money.
Earlier you said "it’s not the utility companies making the money".
So you know that they need to make money which is presumably why you want to nationalise their loses.
Which is fine I guess, we need utility companies to remain in business. But I also want to nationalise their profits. Seems fair - no?
Ernie I've no idea what you're on about, the utilitity companies are not the ones making the money, ie the excessive profits this thread is all about. Even nationalised companies have to break even otherwise the tax payer has to subsidise them, so if nationalised companies had been charging the lower rates the utility companies were last year they may not have gone bust but woukd have been kept afloat by the tax payer.
Anyway this thread is about the excessive profits of the energy giants so nationalisation is a red herring, it won't fix the current problem. What would have prevented it was a coherent energy strategy weaning us off fossil fuels but that needs government to drive it, neither privatised or nationalised utilities would have given us the transition we needed at the speed we needed without government to drive the agenda which they clearly haven't. I'd hazard a guess that we would be further behind where we ought to be ofvthe utilities had remained nationalised, nationalised industries are notoriously moribund and change averse.
Maybe you want to reopen the mines
Would that be a bad idea?
I'm not even going to bother answering that.
Yes they were.
Actually I'm not sure they ever were. Wasn't the entire North Sea market sold to private companies? The infrastructure once it hit land may well have been nationalised but it wasn't at source.
@stumpyjohn you seem to be under the misapprehension that most of our generation source is gas. It's not, [url= https://gridwatch.co.uk ]right now it's 42%[/url]. However because of the way the market works renewables and even nuclear can't be sold cheaper and nobody seems interested in changing that (most likely least of all the companies that have been on their arse for a few years now having sold energy futures at retrospectively terrible rates and had subsequent shortfalls at higher cost)
Ernie I’ve no idea what you’re on about
Well at least we can agree on something - neither of us knows what the other is talking about.
I don't know what you are talking about when you say "the energy providers were never nationalised" because it clearly isn't true - Electricity Act 1947.
And you don't know what I am talking about when I say okay fine, nationalise the losses, but also nationalise the profits.
squirrelking you are correct but as you also point out gas prices drive the whole market.
And this is all being driven by the price of gas. The gas is extracted by private international companies it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to nationalise. Nationalise the power stations, the grid, the people doing the billing, the biggest cost of energy to the consumer is from the likes of Shell which probably can't be nationalised.
We're also in this mess because the government decided to decommission our gas storage infrastructure in 2017, the government decided to do thus, not the private cutility companies.
And to be clear I'm talking about the people providing the fossil fuels we currently use, they were never nationalised. I know the power stations were, along with the grid, but thats not the bit that's driving up the costs at the moment.
The gas is extracted by private international companies it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to nationalise.
Why? Norway has been doing it for half a century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equinor
Did Norway ever have a private sector or was nationalised from the start. Even if we did nationalise north sea gas it would only provide about half of what need so were still subject to international markets.
Anyway we've derailed another thread, back to the OP not paying your bill isn't a great idea, the people we need to upset are our politicians to make sure we aren't at the mercy of the international markets in the future. Nationalisation of what fossil fuel we have left might be part of that but I don't remember the service being very good when things were nationationalised so personaly don't think that is the answer. The common denominator in all this is our governments have not been great at managing privatised or nationalised utilities.
I see from your ninja edit Statoil was nationalised from inception in 1972 to 2001 when it was privatised. The article says it was merged with the Norwegian state power people in 2017, merged rather than nationalised, I don't understand the implications of that but still a bit different from the way we have run our side of the North sea.
Old style electricity meter - the type with the spinning disc.
I've known people in the past to drill a tiny hole(1/2mm, in line with the disc on one side through the plastic case, then push a needle through till it contacts the edge of the disc stopping it thus saving the meter clock from moving.
The hole is visible despite its small size, but I've also heard you can drill in from underneath the meter box which is less visible, or disguise the hole in the side with some strategically placed drops of paint
Of course im not recommending here that anyone with that type of meter does this, and i believe many people were caught because they forgot to remove the needle/pin/thin wire when they came round to read the meter, thus giving the game away.
That’s more like it. Good practical solutions. But who has an old school meter these days?
What about ‘diverting’ power from a nearby street lamp? The councils are basically stealing from us anyway with outrageous council-tax bills (£1400 to empty a bin…) so this would redress the balance somewhat.
Perhaps a post on FB Marketplace asking for old scrap car tyres. A permanent fire could be maintained in one’s garden or drive, fuelled by old tyres and powering a boiler.
I see from your ninja edit Statoil was nationalised from inception in 1972 to 2001 when it was privatised.
Sorry it wasn't intended as an ninja edit, I just added a link which I thought would useful.
Yes it was partially privatised but it remains overwhelming in state hands and the Norwegian government controls it. In the same way that the French government's 85% stake in EDF left in control of that company.
Your claim that it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to nationalise energy production doesn't appear particularly convincing.
Worth noting here that the amount of profits most energy companies make on a domestic supply is usually under 3% and in recent years much less.
Octopus pretty much reinvest all theirs, and they also make a lot of their cash from licensing their software. I don’t know much about most other suppliers.
What I do know is the media (and on occasion where it suited them, the government) have spun stories which have in turn influenced public perception on the issue. Centrica (who own BG) made a bucket load of cash - but what wasn’t reported was the breakdown of which businesses centrica owns actually made that money. There sure aren’t going to subsidise one business with profits from another. Shell is another - huge profits but almost certainly not from their energy supply business.
So nationalising the supply business is pointless. The wholesale cost is still high and they make very little profit off our bills. It would cost billions to nationalise and then billions more to then keep the prices capped.
There sure aren’t going to subsidise one business with profits from another. Shell is another – huge profits but almost certainly not from their energy supply business.
So why should the government subsidize then? Or are you saying they shouldn't either?
And if Shell aren't making profits from the energy supply business why the hell are they involve?
Edit: It really is a case of any losses and the taxpayer should cough up, any profits and the private companies should fill their boots. Isn't it?
I’ve known people in the past to drill a tiny hole(1/2mm, in line with the disc on one side through the plastic case, then push a needle through till it contacts the edge of the disc stopping it thus saving the meter clock from moving.
Hahaha yeah that old trick. It was best to cover it by boxing the meter in so you couldn't physically get anywhere near it, to see it!
There is a non-invasive trick for certain types of gas meter but I'm not posting it up as I will likely get banned. The other approaches are a bit more involved and susceptible to disaster by stupidity!
It would cost billions to nationalise and then billions more to then keep the prices capped.
Basically this and you still need a government with a forward looking energy stratgey, not something we've had for years. And the final negative for me is nationalised industries are plagued by overly powerful unions.
are plagued by overly powerful unions
Blimey, that's what it's really all about....... hatred of organised labour and the ability of working people to establish decent wages and conditions for themselves.
You should have said it from the start, rather than leave that little gem til the end 💡
Are you two not listening,
We are, we just don't agree.
All we've got now are middlemen handling billing between those delivering energy and the consumers (an additional markup).
I get each KWh has a base cost that rises and falls with the market. The problem is where a nationalised ’supplier’ could absorb price fluctuations over a longer period, commercial suppliers are always going to be bumping up against any price cap and will be desperate to report profits on a quarterly basis.
As mentioned above, those commercial suppliers are now eyeing government funds as a way of recouping losses (plus margin?).
The issue is around whoever ends up billing customer having to absorb some degrees of losses in the short to medium term because Cost of living really isn't going to catch up anytime soon, the state has always been better at that that businesses, the number of busy "energy suppliers" from the last few years is testament to that...
Of course it's all academic, there's no way any of those currently in contention for government would do what I'm suggesting. So we'll just keep bankrupting billing companies and put consumers on a pricing rollercoaster because the free market demands it...
And if Shell aren’t making profits from the energy supply business why the hell are they involve?
I'm guessing he meant not huge profits.
Then again, Abellio never made any profit from Scotrail so you never know.
It's almost funny how people think it's thier local supplier that's making the money.
News flash..
And the final negative for me is nationalised industries are plagued by overly powerful unions.
Stumpy the tory playing true to type.
This thread is the most depressing on this whole forum. Millions are being ripped off. It doesn’t matter who is doing it, only that the end consumer is suffering. Yet we have people here making excuses for and defending corporate monopolies. Turkeys voting for Christmas. It’s pathetic.
@jambourgie you should take a look at what your local authority actually spends its budget on, I'm sure you'll find very little of it is on waste collection/disposal
I couldn't see this posted. TLDW: refusing to pay will just give the energy extra cost, to cover that cost prices will have go up.
If you really want to hurt them don't use the product ( really difficult I know).
I don't have a direct debit though, never have. Just a bill every month that I pay online. (Octopus).
Yep those dreadful unions looking after the workers.
And unless the debt is going to be written off, not paying things doesn't usually end well. A lot of people will have no choice not to pay but they will be chased for the money (bailiffs) or ultimately could be switched to pre pay where it is more expensive and if you don't pay you don't get.
The answer is very simple and Starmer is along the right lines. Just cap it and worry about the technicalities of it later - companies claiming from government, any taxing to recoup the money (or pretend to, to keep those ignorant of how it works happy)
This thread is the most depressing on this whole forum. Millions are being ripped off. It doesn’t matter who is doing it, only that the end consumer is suffering
Which is why it’s like the poll tax as that was when a lot of people said enough is enough.
So why should the government subsidize then? Or are you saying they shouldn’t either?
I don’t know the answer, just pointing out some of the facts of the situation.
And if Shell aren’t making profits from the energy supply business why the hell are they involve?
I’m pretty sure that section of my post was pointing out that, in comparison to other areas of the market they operate in, profits from their supply business is negligible. Maybe in the 1-3% margin that I actually wrote down.
Edit: It really is a case of any losses and the taxpayer should cough up, any profits and the private companies should fill their boots. Isn’t it?
And that is exactly the problem with having critical national infrastructure in the hands of private companies. A problem that may change as a result of this crisis, but not as a solution to this crisis.
And unless the debt is going to be written off, not paying things doesn’t usually end well. A lot of people will have no choice not to pay but they will be chased for the money (bailiffs) or ultimately could be switched to pre pay where it is more expensive and if you don’t pay you don’t get.
Unless they’re appointed by the crown court, bailiffs have the same power as TV License ‘enforcers’, ie; none unless you let them in. And debts get written off after six years.
All this is academic anyway, for a lot of people it will matter not a jot who’s fault it is or how wonderful Octopus are. A £5k power bill out of your dole money just isn’t happening so the government will have to do something.
Unless they’re appointed by the crown court, bailiffs have the same power as TV License ‘enforcers’, ie; none unless you let them in. And debts get written off after six years.
When it comes to fitting a prepayment meter due to debt, that is exactly what a supplier has to do if the meter is not accessible from outside (and maybe still if it is, I don’t know). They will get a warrant from the court. That process takes a while though and anyone who is actively conversing with their suppliers, and willing to pay what they can, should not end up at that stage.
All this is academic anyway, for a lot of people it will matter not a jot who’s fault it is or how wonderful Octopus are. A £5k power bill out of your dole money just isn’t happening so the government will have to do something.
Exactly this. We need a short term solution and we need it yesterday.
Nicola Sturgeon promised a national not for profit energy company in 2017. The idea was quietly dropped after reality intervened. The energy suppliers are not making huge profits.
There are things that could be done. Among them dealing with windfall profits of wind energy suppliers who haven't activated cfd schemes. Move green subsidies from bills to general taxation so the burden falls on those who are able to pay. Unlike now when the poor are subsidising green tax breaks on EVs and solar panels for the wealthy.
https://watt-logic.com/2022/08/17/energy-crisis-2/
This isn’t solely a UK issues it’s a global supply and demand challenge so impacts billions of people. Supply is short and demand is high as we’ve emerged from Covid hence the Generators (Shell, BP etc.) can command higher prices and given lack of appetite for consumers to sit in the dark and freeze the Suppliers (Octopus, Bulb etc.) have to pay higher prices and hence pass on the cost to consumers in the form of high cost per kWh. It’s a global business and the Generators sell at a price Suppliers will pay just like any other commodity. That’s why inflation is impacting most countries as energy is essential to the national economy.
France manages energy as a National Strategic Asset and generates significant energy supplies internal via nuclear and renewable. They don’t sell to the highest bidder (if supply is needed internally) and thus have a relatively low inflation rate.
The UK should look to adopt a similar model to become self sufficient in energy generation through investment and thus remove exposure to supply and demand fluctuation. Will this happen, unlikely.
And that is exactly the problem with having critical national infrastructure in the hands of private companies. A problem that may change as a result of this crisis, but not as a solution to this crisis.
The solution to 'this crises' is fairly obvious - the government has to step in and pour billions so that energy bills for both domestic and business consumers doesn't result in people being unable to heat their homes or businesses going bankrupt.
You earlier said:
It would cost billions to nationalise and then billions more to then keep the prices capped.
Slap an affordable price cap on energy bills, and I mean affordable, probably in the region of the French government price cap. If the utility companies can't operate at a loss nationalise them and let the government make up the loss - loss making companies shouldn't cost that much to buy, certainly not as much as one making a healthy profit.
When things turnaround, because this crises won't last forever, the government can reap the rewards of billions in profits every year. A cheap easy long-term solution.
