'Don't Pay'

I will certainly be letting the water company chase me for my payment.

Brilliant! Where do you think the extra cost for all this to the energy companies is going to end up? That's right - even higher bills!

You're (marginally, arguably) better off lobbying your MP to get them to encourage some form of legislative action.

Brilliant! Where do you think the extra cost for all this to the energy companies is going to end up? That’s right – even higher bills!

See thread title.

It's a global price rise and the problem isn't with your energy supplier so why penalise them?
The big profits are being made by the oil and gas producers who are immune from the energy price cap
https://theconversation.com/britains-energy-price-cap-was-never-designed-to-keep-your-gas-and-electricity-affordable-188547

The only person not paying will hurt is the person not paying.

There isn't going to be enough gas to go around this winter, in a global sense. Sadly the only system we have to reduce demand is to increase the price. We can all run rounding saying look at the profits but non of that will solvethe actual problem.

As it stands I take issue with because of points 3 and 4.

Thus far I have not been able to verify those for factual accuracy, nor has anyone who I have seen posting it. To be fair, I never expect the people blindly sharing this sort of thing to have carried out any factual analysis. I ask anyway, you never know.

Because those two points form the foundation of what they are trying to achieve with it, it feels like they should be easily verifiable. If anyone can confirm with some industry based reading that would be awesome.

So I’m calling bullshit. In fact I will go so far as to say complaining to ofgem in this manner is going to be counter productive. Either ‘genuine’ complaints will get delayed massively or ofgem will need to scale up their workforce to deal with the issue. The latter will have to happen because, despite it being their own fault, the price complainers will moan something chronic if their complaints take too long. So an increase in staff, which means an increase in the ofgem operating costs. Who pays for that? We all know the answer there.

The real issue is the fact that the media and government and allowing,even encouraging people to blame their suppliers when in fact they are not the issue.

Don't really understand it, they may raise direct debits but they'll still only charge you for what you use, you could go to paying the specific usage off each month instead but it'll still cost the same overall?

Think a lot of people just see the monthly direct debit and assume that's the actual cost of their fuel usage when it isn't.

Blame the government, this was entirely foreseeable, if they'd actively encouraged renewables rather than blocking onshore wind and removing subsidies we wouldnt be in this mess.

Doing what the OP suggests is petty and vindictive and won't help one bit. Remember all the energy suppliers going bump last year?

Don’t really understand it, they may raise direct debits but they’ll still only charge you for what you use, you could go to paying the specific usage off each month instead but it’ll still cost the same overall?

I take issue with Point 1 as I get a significant discount for paying both gas and electricity by DD each month. Some months I'll build up a credit, some months I'll have a deficit but it all works out over the course of the year and I know that each month the same amount will go out.
Cancelling that and paying for what I use will result in me paying more (as I won't get the discount for paying by DD) and in summer I'll be paying less but in winter I'll be paying more and I don't want that.

The problem is coming in the form of the entire thing going up so whereas now I pay £x a month in DD, the price cap increase means I'll end up paying £2x a month instead.

Given current rates tho' the % of people that are hitting the cap has gone up considerably, and will go up again as winter comes and prices rise.

Interesting local debate in SW Norway that we are selling you power but local customers are being charged market rate... introducing a cable to the UK was help to make our price stable, and it has... just 200 times as high as we need to be, compared to the rest of the country (renewables are cheap, this is a market problem). Much pressure for government intervention as this is BS and hurting families and businesses. If you (the UK) don't pay don't expect a lot of sympathy, or electricity

The campaign seems to confuse suppliers and generators who aren't necessarily the same companies. Not paying a supplier, who just buys gas from a generator, isn't going to change anything.

The real issue is the fact that the media and government and allowing,even encouraging people to blame their suppliers when in fact they are not the issue.

Of course we all know where the real problem lies and they don't even pay road tax. That's right - it's cyclists we need to blame!

It probably sounds a bit one world government but really there needs to be some sort of international legislator that can hold the seemingly untouchable multinationals to account.

I get that supply is finite, but when they are making record profits in the billions year on year, there should be a mechanism to stop that and force them to lower thier prices.

I'm not saying don't allow them to make profit, or even increasing thier profit... But when profits are record highs and prices are record highs too, there's something rotten in Denmark.

Yeah I’ve seen this doing the rounds. Shit advice in my opinion, you still pay what you use, you won’t get a tariff rate and if you owe them they’ll still ask for the money but can’t adjust your DD to help you out.

It probably sounds a bit one world government but really there needs to be some sort of international legislator that can hold the seemingly untouchable multinationals to account.

I get that supply is finite, but when they are making record profits in the billions year on year, there should be a mechanism to stop that.

As the route cause of the current crisis is people literally bombing and killing innocent civlians a calm round table agreement seems unlikley

There isn’t going to be enough gas to go around this winter, in a global sense.

But there is in the UK. There are lots of shortages of lots of things globally, I am not entirely convinced it is the UK's responsibility to create a shortage here to elevate shortages in other countries.

Is the French government only going to increase EDF prices in the UK by 4% (like they have for French consumers) to help British consumers?

https://www.offshore-technology.com/news/uk-gas-europe-shortage/#:~:text=A%20spokesperson%20for%20the%20National,Sea%20resources%20and%20from%20Norway.%E2%80%9D

A spokesperson for the National Grid said: “The UK has never experienced a network gas supply emergency, and this scenario is extremely unlikely.

As the route cause of the current crisis is people literally bombing and killing innocent civlians a calm round table agreement seems unlikley

I understand that has a major impact currently, but record year-on-year profits for the likes of Shell and BP etc. whilst prices still keep creeping up is not a new phenomena.

The same rules could also apply to compaines like Amazon, Meta, Google etc.

There isn’t going to be enough gas to go around this winter, in a global sense.

But there is in the UK.

We're a net importer of gas, but as long as we're prepared to pay for LNG, we should be OK. It's only those who can't / won't afford to pay market rate for LNG over winter who will have shortages (and Germany who have been caught with their trousers down and can't disembark LNG yet).

Plus we're currently filling up EU gas reserves at the moment, so hopefully can call on some of those in winter if needed.

There was an interesting article in the FT the other day, suggesting it might be in Norway's long term interests to sell gas below market rates to Europe to keep Europe together over winter. https://www.ft.com/content/7d674295-af10-4b08-a396-50d9266cbbef

@footlflaps I don't think I disagree with that although I don't know about LNG and infra structure.

But in the end I think it's the same thing. The world is short of gas. The price goes up and rch countries will pay the extra. Others won't be able to and will go without

@footlflaps I don’t think I disagree with that although I don’t know about LNG and infra structure.

We have multiple LNG ports and from what I've read, so do southern European countries. The main problem is Germany who bet the house on Russian gas and also switched off Nuclear!

Quite ironic when the EU suggested 15% cuts in gas use across the EU, mainly to bail out Germany. All the countries who had, 10 years previously, been chastised by Germany for living beyond their means fiscally just turned round and said 'No, it's you who have been living beyond your means for years and we're not going to suffer for it'.

German's energy strategy was just to become 90% dependent on Putin, there was no Plan B.

The next year or so will see a massive push across Europe to increase gas interconnects and build LNG terminals, so in 18-24 months there could be the capacity to replace all Russian gas with LNG. Spain has quoted 9 months to interconnect it's LNG terminals to the main European grid.

The world is short of gas.

Only because we don't want to use Russian Gas. Long term that will end up being shipped to India, China, Turkey etc as LNG or via pipelines and then those countries will buy less Middle Eastern LNG (which we buy).

I take issue with Point 1 as I get a significant discount for paying both gas and electricity by DD each month.

I often hear this. Is it really that significant? I've never personally had a DD with an energy company because I don't like the idea of them helping themselves to whatever they feel like. When I mention this to people the standard reaction is always "OMG it's sooo much more expensive to just pay your bill when it arrives".  But it isn't really. I've checked. It is more. But not significantly more... not enough to warrant having your money in their account earning interest anyway.

But anyway, as the OP, I'm merely presenting this issue for discussion. I'm not necessarily condoning it. Although I probably will stop paying it personally. I do believe that if enough people do something then something will happen. Not sure what though.

@footflaps I’d also forgotten that of course Russian has will still end up in the market. A discount for supporting them. Interesting about Germany.

I’ve never personally had a DD with an energy company because I don’t like the idea of them helping themselves to whatever they feel like.

They don't. I can vary my payments, ask them to repay me anything I'm in credit at any time. Martin Lewis says it varied from firm to firm but roughly the difference between monthly DD and pay quarterly is 6%. That's going to be close on £250 when the new rates come in by my usage estimate. I'd say that's significant, YMMV.

As for the 4 step plan. What are we complaining about in step 2, just that the O&G producer pricing is too high or that the delivery firms are doing something wrong?

if they’d actively encouraged renewables rather than blocking onshore wind and removing subsidies we wouldnt be in this mess

THIS.

Well, we’d have a smaller more manageable problem rather than all this mess. It would still be a hard winter.

Energy efficiency as well… you know, that thing that people have been glueing themselves to roads to try and get the government to act on.

On “keeping it all for ourselves”, whether that’s the UK or Norway… shutting off interconnects would, in the long term, create problems even bigger than those that we face now. Resilience, reliability and diversity of supply will require more cooperation between nearby states as we move towards more renewables. Trying to make each state a bubble that just “looks after its own” won’t end well.

And on the OP, cancelling DD could result in you paying more. Careful.

As for the 4 step plan. What are we complaining about in step 2, just that the O&G producer pricing is too high or that the delivery firms are doing something wrong?

God knows. I suppose it's just about making a noise. 'the squeaky wheel gets the oil'. Lean on the energy co, energy co leans on the government, government scared of losing votes and hands out grants 'a la furlough scheme'... maybe.

They don’t. I can vary my payments, ask them to repay me anything I’m in credit at any time. Martin Lewis says it varied from firm to firm but roughly the difference between monthly DD and pay quarterly is 6%. That’s going to be close on £250 when the new rates come in by my usage estimate. I’d say that’s significant, YMMV.

Fair enough. That is significant. But also sounds like you're having to converse quite a lot with your energy co. I'd rather pay the £250 and not have to talk to them at all.

Back in 1986, when the Conservative government privatised the gas industry, it had only been nationalised for 40 years, since just after the end of World War II. With privatisation, shares were issued, about £9 billion worth, and many people invested in the stock market for the first time in their lives. It seemed like a brave new age.

It certainly seemed that way for the newly formed British Gas, too, since they’d been promised a lucrative monopoly for the next 25 years. That didn’t happen, however. 14 years later, in 2000, the market was opened up to competition, and consumers took advantage of it, many millions of them switching suppliers.

Overall it seemed as if privatisation was a good thing, as domestic gas bills declined by 32%, much of that spurred by competition since 2000. But now prices have risen and risen dramatically. What went wrong?

http://www.utilitycharges.co.uk/privatisation-gas.html

But also sounds like you’re having to converse quite a lot with your energy co.

Octopus energy and it's all on line. I can change my DD with about half a dozen clicks. Not that I need to, because their data driven system estimates future usage based on the past, obvs it goes up in winter and down in summer, etc. They then compare that to my balance and produce a nice chart that looks like a sine curve where my balance is credit in summer, in debt in winter and then back again. Until you click on 'crystal ball mode' when they tell you what the curve looks like on the basis of price cap forecasts and the shit hits the fan.......

I’d rather pay the £250 and not have to talk to them at all.

Change to Octopus. Send me your log in details. I'll manage it for you. £125 a year fee, and you're £125 better off for doing f'all.

But also sounds like you’re having to converse quite a lot with your energy co. I’d rather pay the £250 and not have to talk to them at all.

I have tweaked what I pay a couple of times over recent years when I disagreed with my suppliers assessment. No conversation required, just went into my online account and changed it.

I think a lot of people simply won't be able to pay when energy bills start arriving post Xmas/early '23

Comparisons are being made with the Poll Tax. People refused to pay and it was abolished. I was a little too young to know the ins and outs of that. But surely if enough people don't pay then something must happen.

So anyone else planning on sticking it to the man?

I wouldn’t class it as sticking it to the man but I only use a max of 5kw/day and pay £60/month for my electricity so I’ll not be paying anymore than that, if octopus try and increase my DD then I’ll cancel it and set up a standing order for £60/month.

I spend £20-£30 week on coal and £30 week on logs for heating, switched my air source heat pump off last winter so no heating/hot water as it costs an absolute fortune to run for buggerall heat.

But also sounds like you’re having to converse quite a lot with your energy co. I’d rather pay the £250 and not have to talk to them at all.

Online here as well, I can change my DD payments in a few clicks. Thankfully, they're pretty spot on with the rates anyway and as a back up I've got many years worth of meter readings recorded regularly.

I would absolutely rather NOT pay them an extra £250 thanks!

Interesting that Don't Pay won't divulge the names of those involved. Hmmmm. Lots of speculation as to who they really are, such as the Socialist Worker organisation, with funding from the US. Why would anyone donate when there's no clarity? Do you really want a blemished credit record? Run away!

Interesting times ahead and downright terrifying for some unfortunately.

Do you really want a blemished credit record? Run away!

I suspect there are quite a lot of people for whom a blemished credit record is pretty far down the list of priorities 🤣

£260 a month for coal and logs.
Fo real? Or do you mean £60 per month?

coal

Out of interest, why don't we just go back to coal? Or did we dig it all up? Likewise - nuclear.

I don't think comparisons really stand up. I'm also a bit young for the poll tax but that was a politically driven decision. The energy price increases have been coming a long time - they were kept artificially low by the cap and as a result when the market price increased firms went bust. As consumers we didn't protest too much there? And we didn't use the low prices to build buffers against when the inevitable increase was coming, it got in the main spent on consumer stuff.

Now we have the CoL crisis, driven not exclusively but largely by the energy price increases, and raw food increase plus the knock on effect of the energy cost on cost of goods in general. I don't understand how interest rates are supposed to halt that, when food and fuel is not discretionary spending. I also don't totally believe inflation's as high as it is, if we hadn't had caps and artificially low prices for several years we would not be seeing this step change which in the end is the inflation calc - how much is it today vs a year ago. I suspect inflation will flatten again and be two shallower lines with a steep section in it. Of course if that steep section has consumed any discretionary spending and now means that households don't have enough to cover the ND spending - then we're into the parlous situation we are already seeing and predicting 'heat or eat' and foodbanks and increased deaths among the eldery living in cold, damp houses, etc.

I see what is being said, that we need to express dissatisfaction and I suppose this is a way, but I don't personally think it's the right target. But how we protest in a time when the rights to protest are being eroded, the ruling party is consumed by its own internal squabbles, and the opposition is toothless, I don't know.

And they should stop right now with the terminology 'price cap'.
There will be a percentage of the uk population who will simply leave their heatimg on 24/7. Because the price is capped so it cant go any higher. And if it cant go any higher then sod it, I'm getting my flat nice and toasty warm as its capped. Martin Lewis told me it was capped, so it must be capped, but it isn't.
A few 3kw electric heaters and 60p per kwh, i reckon you could do £500pcm easy on electric if you're unfortunate to not have town gas and rely on electricity for cooking, heating , hot water etc.

£260 a month for coal and logs.
Fo real?

Yeah, I have spms and very limited mobility so can’t move to generate heat, cold winters are pretty horrible. My mum cleans out the fire/log burner in the morning and brings in coal/logs and lights fire so there’s a bit of heat in house when I get up, I keep it burning all day as bungalow is very poorly constructed and housing association will not insulate under floors/more insulation in attic/walls and the double glazing is 30+ years old.

Given current rates tho’ the % of people that are hitting the cap has gone up considerably

I don't think you understand how the cap works, it's the max they can charge per unit, not a cap on how much you pay per year, all these average households will pay X headlines are misleading. If you use more, you pay more. Nobody hits the cap, all the suppliers have effectively set their variable rates at the cap, they can still set fixed rates at what they want.

Comparisons are being made with the Poll Tax

It's not a valid comparison, the government can be influenced by people on the street, wholesale energy markets don't give a rats arse. Your supplier is caught in the middle. Governments can't really positively affect the wholesale markets short term, only long term by changing where our energy comes from, see my point earlier about failing to push renewables fast and hard enough.

a blemished credit record is pretty far down the list of priorities 🤣

Well it shouldn't be, a poor credit rating hikes up all sorts of costs and can end up with you on prepay meters which cost even more.

Renewables won't help us on a dark windless night in January.

As for subsidies. I think ghe current £11.5Bn per year and rising bill for subsidised renewables is enough.

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2021/02/15/homeowners-fleeced-by-renewable-subsidies/

I wouldn’t class it as sticking it to the man but I only use a max of 5kw/day and pay £60/month for my electricity so I’ll not be paying anymore than that, if octopus try and increase my DD then I’ll cancel it and set up a standing order for £60/month.

I genuinely don’t understand your reasoning here. If your prices go up, which they will, all you will end up doing here is finding yourself building up a debt. Unless you plan on reducing your consumption in line with the increasing cost that is.

Comparisons are being made with the Poll Tax

Yep I vaguely remember being threatened with prison if I didn’t pay that one.

I’m pretty sure I paid and although the policy was stopped they still got the money out of you. I can’t remember as it was a long time ago in a galaxy full of beer and clubbing.

I expect the Gov will make it easier to automatically fine people or some bizarre thing that can’t be appealed.