And what is the answer to such a question?
Maybe it's the fact that just like here in the UK, they continually put up candidates who refuse to challenge the established neoliberal narrative that there is no other way to organise society and the economy than what we have today. Every time I hear a centre-left politician speak I'm left with the impression that they're telling me what isn't possible and what isn't realistic or feasible. FFS stop telling people what they can't have and start offering them something positive. From what I can see all Harris is offering is that she isn't Donald Trump. Hilary Clinton tried that approach and look what happened.
I think the big issues that face the left is the last time Labour had a proper leftie in charge the press vilified his every move.
Getting the people to actually listen & engage is always tricky when the right sells simple solutions for complicated problems.
My dad & brother inlaw have started to go down the migrant rabbit holes - moaning about various things, as this is sold as the biggest problem facing the UK today - not a problem blown out of all proportion by the previous government.
Trump has no interest in normal working people
And he doesn’t even need to pretend that he does. Evangelical Christians are among Trump’s biggest supporters, approx 80% supported him when he was previously elected. And yet he doesn’t pretend to share their religious views, they are totally aware how godless Trump is.
He has no interest is young Black male voters, and so on and so on
It's not who he is, or the example he sets, or the solutions policies he offers. What brings all these people together as one voting coalition for Trump is he can say to them that he hates the things they hate. He hates immigrants and he hates women and he hates the justice system and he hates government and taxes and he hates 'the blacks' when it suits him and he hates Jews when it suits him and muslims pretty much all the time. Whatever you hate he hates it too and that gives him more traction that the fact that he hates you as well. That only ever gets pointed out to you by people Trump hates and that you hate too.
His rallies are just a crowd cheering a list of grievances and him cheering their boos. (and 40 minutes of dancing)
For decades they have voted for so-called ‘serious’ politicians who have broken every promise and every campaign message that things would be better with them in power. If people are not presented with a serious alternative, they’ll vote for an unserious one instead.
I get your point. But trump was in power only 4 years ago, and to best of my knowledge he didn't do anything he promised (remember that wall?), and didn't do anything to improve anything for anyone.
So I'm left with the conclusion that 50% of Americans have either very short memories, or are thick. I'm leaning towards the latter tbh.
Much to my dismay he's going to win, probably due to the voting system rather than the popular vote. And you can expect his inauguration speech to be as graceless and decisive as it was last time
Although I'm still holding out for him not making it to election day due to having a massive coronary on the shitter ..although that's looking more and more like wishful thinking..
From what I can see all Harris is offering
Trump supporters aren't going to vote for Harris because she starts offering them an alternative to the Status Quo. They're voting for Trump because they think he believes, like they do, that climate change isn't real and that gas will stay at 35 cents a litre forever, that they won't be made to feel bad about how the US has treated people of colour in the past, that abortion will be illegal, and their particular brand of evangelical Christianity will become the official religion, he won't take away their guns, and make them accept 'socialised' healthcare.
The things they want are fantasy things, that's the appeal of Trump. The things that you think are a viable, credible alternative to the neo-liberal narrative would go down like a bucket of cold sick with these folks
They want to live in the US of the fifties, not the future.
I get your point. But trump was in power only 4 years ago, and to best of my knowledge he didn’t do anything he promised (remember that wall?), and didn’t do anything to improve anything for anyone.
Trump lowered taxes (massively) increased tariffs (bigly) and was tough on NATO. All things he promised to do and did. Biden kept the tax drop and the tariffs and the US economy has benefitted from the tough on NATO stance.
I dislike Trump as much as the next guy, but let’s at least be fair, otherwise we’re no better than the other liars.
I'm going to have to stop opening this thread. It seems there's now little-to-no prospect of him losing as things stand, and it's just too ****ing depressing for words.
Someone please PM me when he does have that thromby on the shitter, then I can break out a big bottle of something fizzy. Thanks in advance
Trump lowered taxes (massively) increased tariffs (bigly) and was tough on NATO. All things he promised to do and did. Biden kept the tax drop and the tariffs and the US economy has benefitted from the tough on NATO stance.
Fair point. My judgement is clearly clouded by the fact he's an utter cxxx.
Good points @maccruiskeen
Trump supporters aren’t going to vote for Harris because she starts offering them an alternative to the Status Quo.
Maybe not but it doesn't need a load of rednecks to put a democrat in power, it needs a broad coalition of the working and middle classes who are sick of seeing their standard of living and economic security withering away while the rich get ever richer. Basically what they need is a Bernie Sanders type figure who's a bit younger and a bit more charismatic. It's always going to be one of the greatest 'what ifs?' wondering what might have happened if Hilary Clinton didn't beat Sanders in the 2016 primaries.
It’s not who he is, or the example he sets, or the solutions policies he offers. What brings all these people together as one voting coalition for Trump is he can say to them that he hates the things they hate. He hates immigrants and he hates women and he hates the justice system and he hates government and taxes and he hates ‘the blacks’ when it suits him and he hates Jews when it suits him and muslims pretty much all the time. Whatever you hate he hates it too and that gives him more traction that the fact that he hates you as well. That only ever gets pointed out to you by people Trump hates and that you hate too.
Probably the most incisive description I've read here or elsewhere.
Donald Trump attack on Keir Starmer fails with pre-Budget poll boost for Labour
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/trump-starmer-budget-poll-tracker-b2635438.html
I reckon that the Independent's political correspondent might have misunderstood the purpose of Donald Trump's criticism of the "far-left" Labour Party's involvement in the US presidential elections.
It wasn't designed to damage Keir Starmer, it was designed to damage Kamala Harris. And it is still perfectly feasible to believe that it might have had a minimal negative impact on her campaign despite the obvious hypocrisy.
And I am not sure that I would describe a 1% increase in support for Labour as "a shock pre-Budget poll boost", the margin of error of error is 3% ffs.
It seems there’s now little-to-no prospect of him losing
Only if you listen to all the internet noise... Which is only going to become amplified up to the maximum over the next week so.
Harris is still leading in the polls. But the lead has shrunk in the last few days...
But being totally objective.. That doesn't nessesary mean much when you consider the inbuilt structural bias of their electoral college system.
I'm still quietly hopeful my twenty quid bet on Harris will still return me £55.
Remember that MAGA are capable of making a lot more internet noise given Musk is on board.
But noise is noise.. Hype is hype, etc.
it needs a broad coalition of the working and middle classes who are sick of seeing their standard of living and economic security withering away while the rich get ever richer.
John Steinbeck wrote "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” They don't want to see the wages for themselves and others lifted, they want to be one of the rich, getting richer. That's the American dream.
Only if you listen to all the internet noise… Which is only going to become amplified up to the maximum over the next week so.
Harris is still leading in the polls. But the lead has shrunk in the last few days…
I listened to an interesting interview with Denny Carter on polls in the US today - making a comparison between what the polls appear to show and how the campaigns are acting. His analogy was like watching a football game and focusing on the stats at the bottom of the screen rather than the players on the field - it doest matter how how much possession and how many shots on target a team has if in fact they're losing. The consistent in the media narrative is that the polls are tightening, it's 50:50, it's too close to call. But those stats don't seem to correlate with the the actions of the two campaigns. Harris's campaign is a strategy of a party that is confident it can win. Trump's campaign is a strategy of someone who thinks they're likely to lose, I terms of where they are campaigning, the messages they are putting out and so on. It looks like their internal polling is telling them something very different to the published opinion polls. Think about the Musk $1m dollar bribes - thats not the actions of a campaign that thinks it's in a strong position.
A lot of the published polling data is coming from openly republican-leaning organisations and while there has been an issue of polling efforts under-reporting Trump's popularity in the past it may well be, as well as honest efforts to better reflect voter intentions theres deliberate efforts to inflate his poll standing. The poll agrigators know a lot of these polls are junk, but are feeding the data in (claiming they are taking account of the bias, but feeding the junk in anyway). Theres a consistent narrative that gets pushed from republican operators in all sorts of elections towards a story of outcomes being likely to be effectively a coin toss even when the reality is that a particular battle ground is solidly republican or democrat.
Whilst not want to show him as losing It seems useful for republicans not to show him as winning, but to show that knife edge. The Trump campaign has been expertly hoovering money out of its base for a decade now but it takes very little doubt in peoples minds to stop handing over money. Knife edge polling keeps people giving, If these are indeed inflated poll figures then disparity between those and the election day result sets up another long-running 'stolen / rigged' grift. It probably the case that things can't go wrong for Trump in that respect. Losing would still mean the story is all about him.
Maybe it’s the fact that just like here in the UK, they continually put up candidates who refuse to challenge the established neoliberal narrative that there is no other way to organise society and the economy than what we have today. Every time I hear a centre-left politician speak I’m left with the impression that they’re telling me what isn’t possible and what isn’t realistic or feasible. FFS stop telling people what they can’t have and start offering them something positive. From what I can see all Harris is offering is that she isn’t Donald Trump. Hilary Clinton tried that approach and look what happened.
So they're going to vote for someone who is promising policies that will put them in a worse position?
So I’m left with the conclusion that 50% of Americans have either very short memories, or are thick. I’m leaning towards the latter tbh.
And not just Americans, here too.
Macruiskeen +1
Getting the people to actually listen & engage is always tricky when the right sells simple solutions for complicated problems.
So get the left to sell simple solutions to complicated problems. Not the same ones, but why aren't the left making more of the pay differential between CEOs and workers? Tell us stories about Bezos making his drivers pee in bottles. How about the right's complete disregard for the environment? Shit in our rivers, Musk's rockets burning the manatees. Whatever. There seems to be a collective lack of imagination and a certain amount of cowardice on the left at this point, and it's a mistake.
There seems to be a collective lack of imagination and a certain amount of cowardice on the left at this point,
There has never been a better time for left wing parties to offer a vision of a better society in contrast to the right wing status quo.
But they bottle it.
5 Live played some audio this afternoon of Trump rambling on at one of his rallies about the size of Arnold Palmers cock.
I mean seriously…. WTF?
Just put a tenner on Harris to win
Can't believe that Americans would be insane enough to vote him in a second time.
I reckon enough swing state voters in particular will know what's at stake, but I could see him piling up votes in red areas so that he actually wins the popular vote. If I couldve got odds on both those things I'd have gone for that!
Can’t believe that Americans would be insane enough to vote him in a second time.
I recall everyone saying the same the last time around. I’ve thought for a while that there’s a certain inevitability to it.
They really are that insane
So the Washington Post has declined to endorse a candidate.
To put this in perspective, this is the first time it has ever done this in 40 years and it has tended to endorse democrats in the past.
To put this in further perspective the Post is fairly recently owned by everyone's favourite wobbly vibrator shaped 'rocket ' man Jeff Bezos.
The LA Times has also failed to endorse a candidate this election for the first time, though in the past it has also tended to endorse democrats.
The Times is has also been recently acquired by a billionaire.
Endorsing candidates is a big deal in the US.
In addition there is a fairly well substantiated rumo(u)r that Space Karen has been playing both sides and whilst ensconced in the Trump camp has been in frequent communication with Vlad the poisoner for at least the last 2 years.....
I think its about time the public started having a problem with this billionaire ****
I think a big psycological human problem is that people feel a compulsion to pigeon-hole things as a binary choice... or they simply lack the mental capacity to see otherwise...
..of left or right... even on this forum.
It doesn't help anything... some on here even use the term 'centrist' as a thinly veiled slur against differing opinions.
So we can't really blame some American news papers for sitting on the fence...if they endorse Harris and trump gets in, he will put them out of business.
They really are that insane
I'll see your 'insane' and raise you an 'unpleasant'.
Jesus H Christ, I just noticed this thread has been going for nine years. NINE YEARS!
In addition there is a fairly well substantiated rumo(u)r that Space Karen has been playing both sides and whilst ensconced in the Trump camp has been in frequent communication with Vlad the poisoner for at least the last 2 years…..
Sorry not following why that is playing both sides? Trump and Vlad aint exactly on opposite sides.
Now if you were referencing the muskrats bowing to the CCP demands you might have a point.
So the Washington Post has declined to endorse a candidate
Bezos apparently worried about his space contracts if Trump wins, which I guess is not unlikely considering how deep Musk is into Trump
Abject cowardice but I don't know if it won't backlash, on the Trump campaign
In addition there is a fairly well substantiated rumo(u)r that Space Karen has been playing both sides
When you say "fairly well substantiated" you mean the stories in the Guardian and Wall Street Journal?
Jesus H Christ, I just noticed this thread has been going for nine years. NINE YEARS!
Statistcally speaking, it's highly unlikely Trump will still be alive in another 9 years... it's what he's paving the road for, that is more of a concern.
It doesn’t help anything… some on here even use the term ‘centrist’ as a thinly veiled slur against differing opinions.
No they dont. Which shows, ironically, that you might be having difficult understanding positions varying from your own simplistic one whilst busily announcing others are mentally deficient.
When you say “fairly well substantiated” you mean the stories in the Guardian and Wall Street Journal?
Yes, two of the most respected publications on either side of the Atlantic with a long history of journalistic integrity (even the WSJ seems to have kept that with its current ownership), yes that would be it.
Why?
"Sorry not following why that is playing both sides? Trump and Vlad aint exactly on opposite sides."
Whilst your flippancy is understandable they are actually on different sides.
In addition the security clearance levels given to Musk based on his ownership of Space X and his partnership with NASA plus Starlink and its connections with Ukraine and other global conflicts and his ownership of X, a transmission device for fake news mean that he is clearly in a position to play both sides. This would not necessarily be an issue accept that........everything.
It certainly dovetails well with the statements hes made about Russia which were very much in line with putins own takes on the war.
It's mad that Musk apparently has US security clearance and they are soon to be in government
Nick Offermans message to votors is spot on
Whilst your flippancy is understandable they are actually on different sides.
They're both kleptocrats cooperating for each other's mutual benefit. I think it's fair to describe that as "being on the same side".
One of Trump's many creepy obsessions is his infatuation with totalitarian dictators and he has publicly fawned over Putin on many occasions. The fan boy behaviour has been so ridiculous that several people have suggested Putin must have something on him. Woodward's recently published book claims Trump secretly gifted Covid testing machines to Putin during the pandemic and has had multiple phone conversations with Putin since leaving office.
Anyone watched the Rogan podcast yet?
I was willing to watch it out of curiosity.
From the clips I’ve seen already this morning, it’ll be a tough watch. Nothing to do with his politics, just his complete inability to get out a coherent sentence.
I thought about listening to it but I don’t honestly have the energy
I got about half way through before it all got too infuriating and depressing.
Hard to believe it's the same guy who was enthusiastically backing Bernie Sanders not that long ago.
Incidentally, Bernie was on Lex Fridman recently. Everything he proposes is so reasonable and humane, and the average person on the street would agree with him. Yet, he was totally squashed by the corporate controlled system running the US.
One interesting take away from the Rogan interview is he's still struggling holding the line with his own bullshit about the last election. Having upset a lot of his closest supporters recently by actually saying he 'lost by a whisker' (supporters who've lost millions, face trials and prison so on becuase they supported him in his claim) and having to backtrack and say it was somehow a joke and admitting earlier this week that he's never actually seen an evidence of cheating in the election - he did it again, this time trying to get the toothpaste back in the tube mid sentence
“I lost by, like..... I didn’t lose,”
