I fear the world is a darker place this morning.
Political violence is not the answer, shining a light on what a poor candidate Trump is should be the way, but with the dems infighting and with the delivery of Bidens messaging being the focus as opposed to the content, the world is all but guaranteed a Trump second term.
And to stress test that for a moment – would the same request stand if it was Putin we were talking about – or is there a value judgement being used here too?
The murder of Putin would not result in a more peaceful, democratic Russia. There are no institutions and no succession plan. Whoever seizes power would likely be more erratic than Putin. There might be short term gains for Ukraine (if it could seize the advantage while the military is in disarraey) but it's not a problem solver.
I see the usual hand-wrining response from the liberal centre ground is kicking in. Can't have anything bad happening to fascists can we? I would say that I don't wish anyone dead but in a tiny few cases it's just not true. The simple fact is that had that young man been successful, the world would be a safer and more sane place today and we would all be thanking him, but the fact that he was unsuccessful has unfortunately made it much more dangerous. It would probably have been better if he had done nothing at all, but we are where we are and the lesson here is fairly obvious.
The murder of Putin would not result in a more peaceful, democratic Russia.
Yes using the Von Stauffenberg example. The allies decided against trying to assassinate Hitler in part due to their concerns he would be replaced by someone more competent/less likely to interfere with the military operations.
Convert it’s a simple request.
would the same request stand if it was Putin we were talking about – or is there a value judgement being used here too?
The U.S. is a democracy and leaders can be peacefully removed from power. Russia is not a functioning democracy and Putin is a murderous tyrant who has invaded a neighbouring country. Same goes for von Staffenberg's attempt at killing Hitler. I utterly loathe Trump but the way to get rid of him is to vote against him.
The simple fact is that had that young man been successful, the world would be a safer and more sane place today
Just like the assassinations of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Gadaffi, Habyarimana, Trujillo, Park...?
It's not a "simple fact" at all. Trump's backers and support base still exist, and there's no shortage of equally angry replacements. MTG probably had some intensive thoughts when she heard the news!
The simple fact is that had that young man been successful, the world would be a safer and more sane place today and we would all be thanking him, but the fact that he was unsuccessful has unfortunately made it much more dangerous
That is a hell of a bold claim!!! So if the assassination attempt had been successful, Trump supporters would've just accepted it and now violence would've ensuied? I don't buy that at all. Would I have shed a tear if Trump had have died.... definitely not. Would I have been worried about what happened in the aftermath both in the US and globally...100%.
As someone above said, these things aren't even remotely binary. You believe that Trump is a facist and a threat to the world, I believe that too. The big problem, is that there are a lot of people who for instance believe that Biden is a deranged lefty and a threat to America.
The simple fact is that had that young man been successful, the world would be a safer and more sane place today
I suspect the opposite is true
Convert it’s a simple request
Oh, I acknowledge that and plan on abiding by it. I'm just also acknowledging that for millions and millions of people, and I suspect the majority of readers and contributors (including I suspect you) to these pages there will be conflicting emotions this morning. It's a simple (and justifiable) request about a complex issue. Just because it must not be expressed does not make the emotional conundrum disappear.
The U.S. is a democracy and leaders can be peacefully removed from power. Russia is not a functioning democracy and Putin is a murderous tyrant who has invaded a neighbouring country. Same goes for von Staffenberg’s attempt at killing Hitler. I utterly loathe Trump but the way to get rid of him is to vote against him.
So we are agreed then - a value judgment. One I agree with I hasten to add, but a value judgment never the less.
I was just hopeing that his life style and age would deal with him and that he might have time to regret his actions and abhorrent beliefs.
If you assassinate him he just ends up a martyr for his deluded followers.
The MAGA movement is all about Trump, it’s a classic cult of personality. Take him away it would almost certainly fall apart. Now it is strengthened though so god knows what will happen. I wouldn’t even be surprised if someone has another go.
@politecameraaction There’s a reasonable theory that states that Europe would have been a more stable place if Franz Ferdinand had lived to become emperor; certainly Austria-Hungary would have moved more towards federalism.
No conflicting emotions here. I’m just sad that innocent people lost their lives and the shooter missed his intended target. Some people are just poisonous and Trump is one of them. He incited an attempted insurrection. Undermines Democracy and has spent his entire life being an utter stain on humanity. By not killing him, I fear the assassin has handed him the election.
Feel free to fling me (another) warning or ban for this mods. I really wish the ****er would die and I’m not the least bit concerned over how that occurs. I reserve my empathy for those deserving of it and not those without any of their own.
Luckily we're getting Nigel Farage's take on the situation on Laura Kuensberg's show this morning.
FFS.
I utterly loathe Trump but the way to get rid of him is to vote against him.
How does that work when the voters have their heads stuffed with nonsense courtesy of Putin and Zuckerberg ??
“After failing to stop Trump being elected through the courts, the only way to save democracy is to kill him”
TDS in full effect…
The MAGA movement is all about Trump, it’s a classic cult of personality. Take him away it would almost certainly fall apart.
The cults of personality around Stalin, Mao, Kim, Khomeini, and Ataturk all persisted after the death of the person involved because none of the underlying conditions or structures changed. A cult of personality necessarily means elevating the figure of worship above the reality of the person - and once the super-human idol has been created, it doesn't matter too much what the person does or even if they survived.
You might have noticed that Trump isn't much of an organiser or operator - he's a remarkable person but he's a fetish and a proxy. He's not a Tito-like figure who is the glue sticking all these dissonant pieces together in a way no-one else can.
When will the fools learn that true democracy comes at the end a barrel of a gun.
In the end the way to win is by being better than your opponents, not worse. In that respect, here's Trump commenting on the Pelosi assassination attempt. We must not fall to these levels.
https://twitter.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796
In the end the way to win is by being better than your opponents, not worse.
I need cheering up - looking around the world can you point to some examples of this “winning”” ?
"Ah the ones wanting another human dead, what lovely people you are."
That will not age well. Time to reread Rogue Male.
There are over four billion of us. Chances are there are some within that number that the rest of us would be better off without. The virtue signalling and fake handwringing is much worse than the honesty being displayed when it comes to opinions on Trump.
Ahhh ****! This has probably handed Trump the election, the visuals of him stood bloodied with a fist in the air feeds just the sort of 'strong leader' narrative he wants.
Chuck and Buck will be tooling up, donning full Gravy Seal garb and piling into the pick-up as we speak to go find anyone with blue hair to receive their "Antifa reprisals"...
The conspiracies are kicking off already (both ways)... This is not good for US democracy in anyway.
I need cheering up – looking around the world can you point to some examples of this “winning”” ?
Early days, but the UK seems to have chosen a better direction on July 4th!
The virtue signalling and fake handwringing is much worse than the honesty being displayed when it comes to opinions on Trump.
Ah yes, the ole switcheroo of 'apathy' being the greater crime. Classic interweb binary arguement. It's a nonsense.
There are over four billion of us. Chances are there are some within that number that the rest of us would be better off without. The virtue signalling and fake handwringing is much worse than the honesty being displayed when it comes to opinions on Trump.
Assassination isn’t top of my list for him. Prison, which was never going to happen and a fast drop in to obscurity would’ve been preferred. Perhaps if he lobbied for tighter control on guns as a result of this I may be able to scrape up a really tiny amount of begrudging respect for him. Odds are he’ll blame “Woke” people or the terrorists of the anti facist movement. It’ll just help him breed more violence and unrest.
Not apathy at all, I’m just being honest and 100% believe most of the people stating it’s terrible to wish ill on someone wouldn’t actually give a shit if he died.
The virtue signalling and fake handwringing is much worse than the honesty being displayed when it comes to opinions on Trump.
The cheap iconoclasm of Internet tough guys who are unlikely to bear the brunt of reprisals after assassinations of Trump or Putin or others is also a form of virtue signalling.
100% believe most of the people stating it’s terrible to wish ill on someone wouldn’t actually give a shit if he died
There's a difference between that and actively wanting someone murdered.
Not apathy at all, I’m just being honest and 100% believe most of the people stating it’s terrible to wish ill on someone wouldn’t actually give a shit if he died.
I don't think 'not wishing that a presidential candidate to be murdered' and 'giving a shit if he actually died' are mutually exclusive. They certainly aren't for me anyway! I'd probably cast it a foolish rather than terrible to wish I'll on someone, but we're into semantics at that point I guess.
Early days, but the UK seems to have chosen a better direction on July 4th!
Get back to me in a couple of years.
I will admit I was quite excited this morning when I played today's edition of The Economist's The World In Brief and read the tag line "Trump shot at rally".
Won't lie that I was disappointed that he survived.
It would probably have been better if he had done nothing at all, but we are where we are and the lesson here is fairly obvious.
What lesson is that? Don't miss?
I don’t actively want him murdered but would t care in the slightest if he were to be. The internet tough guy thing is a piss poor comeback and is getting old. Nothing tough guy about my comments at all. Just honestly stating my opinion. I’d wish ill on Trump every day if I thought it might amount to anything.
There’s a difference between that and actively wanting someone murdered.
+1. And that difference is what gives rise to the kind of stochastic terrorism we have seen rise at Trump's direction. But it also happens here: David Copeland, Khalid "Adrian Elms" Massood, Darren Osbourne...
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/09/donald-trump-stochastic-terrori-milley-violence-muskst/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c19dp7wmy18o
why weren’t the people behind trump hit?
I'm seriously hoping the blonde over his right shoulder wasn't the one that took the hit, she dropped pretty quick. Don't wanna see that.
This photo will still be published regularly in 100 years. Up there with the Che Guevara image, VJ Day sailor, etc.
Quoted from the twitter link, wasn't what jumped immediately to mind. More thinking along the lines of burning of the Reichstag.
President Biden recently told donors he wanted to "put Trump in a bullseye."
uh huh
Super, smashing, great, lovely
Here's your BFH
Have you seen the twitter of Trump about Pelosi, grimey? What do you say at that?
Biden was nothing more than clumsy language, not much more than saying we're making someone a target.
No magic bullet this time.
Yet again, a republican voting middle class assassin, with legally owned firearms, and probably a fully paid up lifetime member of the NRA.
Aged only 20. What is it about that country that make people so young think they need to take such radical steps.
Have you seen the twitter of Trump about Pelosi, grimey?
I see that clip of Trump and take it as an example of why this man makes so many people struggle with their normal attitude to right and wrong. You could look at that clip and say "we must never stoop to his level to defeat him" or you could see it and say "this man is so horrific that my moral threshold can make an exception".
And just to scenario out what the world would look like this morning if the assassin had been more competent - short term the turmoil and instability would have been sizable. I suspect a state of emergency would have had to be called. Medium and long term - I'm in the camp that the MAGA phenomenon is quite cult like and is very reliant on Trump as the main act. When he is dead - by natural means or otherwise, it will fracture and marginalise. Medium and long term, the world is a lot more dangerous place after a failed assassination than it would have been if it had not happened or if it had been successful.
If dump had even a modicum of statesmanship or decency in him, he would use this to draw a line under the vile polarization that is only going to lead to more deaths. But he wont, he and his band of idiots will use this as a war cry.
What is it about that country that make people so young think they need to take such radical steps.
The industrial scale 'othering' that both sides go full ham with, aided and abetted by their ideologically aligned media outlets and mouthpieces.
The same thing we seem so keen to emulate here.
The simple fact is that had that young man been successful, the world would be a safer and more sane place today and we would all be thanking him,
dazh - you can’t possibly be that stupid? If he’d been successful and the Dems had then won the election, it would just confirm to the whole of the US, the whole of the world, that it’s alright to kill people you disagree with. Because, well, ends and means, yeah? As long as you’ve got a good reason, it’s alright. ?
I think it would be safsr if he had been shot. The Republican party are traditionally not actually as mental as Trump, they are just terrified of not picking him to run against Biden. If trump wasn't around they would probably pick a more moderate candidate and easily beat Biden.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_attempts_and_plots
It's crazy just how common assassinations, attempted assassinations, and assassination plots are and always have been in American politics.
I guess what makes this one unique is how close he got to being successful and how much of a massive failure of security it was.
One thing I would like to see come out of this sorry story is for America to finally acknowledge that the gun laws are too lax.
Also, why didn't the authorities just disable the gunman?
