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nickc
Full MemberI can’t stop laughing that Trump has been shafted by legislation that he signed onto the books. It will never not be legitimately funny.
Trump's legacy is now officially amazing. And it'll drive the pronoun lunatics crazy, all this time he was saying "lock her up" but he apparently was using her interchangably with him, he's agenda fluid.
I chatted to Mark Thomas today, his current stage show has a riff about <still> not being at peak real-world satire, that every comedian thinks it's coming but every time you reach that point there's another thing that's funnier and madder- he's literally had to change it already because he had a joke about mortgages for the unborn that came true in the weeks since he thought it was a really good absurdist policy,... but he reckons this might be the event that rewrites everyone's politics shows. Someone go in a couple of days and see what he makes of the new material.
Mind you he also said I have tory diabetes so I'm taking off a star for that.
what do we recon ? offering us intelligence on Iran to the Saudis for cash ?
I think people are getting a bit overexcited here. Just possessing classified documents without permission is a breach of the espionage act, you don't have to be trying to sell them or anything. I doubt he was trying to sell the. Here are my theories, they could all be simultaneously true:
1. He took everything he could from the White House because some of the documents are incriminating for him (for example, records showing he wanted to impose military rule during the insurrection). He's too lazy to go through them all and remove the relevant ones so he just took everything.
2. He's still play acting being president for wealthy donors at Mar a Lago. They contribute $100k and get to hang out with him for the day. He takes them back to his office and shows them the safe full of documents marked "Top Secret" so prove that he's still relevant.
3. Someone told him that he's not allowed to take stuff from the White House. His response was, "**** you, I'm President, I'll do whatever I want." So he took stuff just to prove that nobody's going to boss him around.
Also, as far as prosecutions go, he can be prosecuted just for possessing the documents, there's no requirement to prove intent to do anything with them. Prosecutors know that and they will probably only prosecute for possession because intent is much harder to prove. I think he deserves to be prosecuted and thrown in jail, but I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed that he's not going to be charged with spying for another country or anything outlandish like that.
I think people are getting a bit overexcited here. Just possessing classified documents without permission is a breach of the espionage act, you don’t have to be trying to sell them or anything. I doubt he was trying to sell the. Here are my theories, they could all be simultaneously true:
I dont care what he gets ****ed for, so long as he gets ****ed.
People like him deserve it, if for nothing more than taking advantage of peoples gullibility and prejudices, for little more than corruption and ego. Him and the likes of Alex Jones have been pushing people into some harmful perceived realities. *****.
I think people are getting a bit overexcited here. Just possessing classified documents without permission is a breach of the espionage act, you don’t have to be trying to sell them or anything. I doubt he was trying to sell the.
A former president being investigated under the Espionage Act is quite unusual and exciting, though. He doesn't need to be stood under a streetlight in East Berlin with a suitcase full of secrets.
I dont care what he gets * for, so long as he gets *.
Couldn't agree more.
A former president being investigated under the Espionage Act is quite unusual and exciting, though.
Yes, it's easy to overlook that even the most innocent explanations are still utterly unprecedented. And that includes Richard Nixon.
If no indictment follows this, he truly is the Teflon Don. All these documents, some reportedly of the very highest level of secrecy, were in his personal office. There is literally no legal defence available to him.
I think people are getting a bit overexcited here
Don't be a killjoy thols2! 😉
I think #2 and #3 of @thols2 's speculations are the most likely to me, especially if some-one from some obscure branch of the Govt like a library told him. I don't think he'd be bothered at all if it was incriminating. Trump's left a paper trail of all his criminality all his life, it's never bothered him before.
Yes, it’s easy to overlook that even the most innocent explanations are still utterly unprecedented. And that includes Richard Nixon.
Agreed, it is massive. But the fact that this current edition of the Trump show is on the main news websites front pages, but more of a byline than a massive banner headline is a true indictment as to where the world is currently - both in term of the absurdity of the Trump presidency and its afterglow but also what else is currently going on nationally and globally. Kind of terrifying really.
The question now is whether he immediately throws his hat into the ring for the 2024 presidency to try to deflect prosecution. If it proceeds, it would take a couple of years to get to court, so creates a real possibility that the GOP could be saddled with a candidate with a court date.
If it proceeds, it would take a couple of years to get to court
You’re making out there are shades of grey that can be argued in court. With this stuff, the act of simply copying or removing it is an offence, you are briefed when it’s given to you to acknowledge you understand the protocols. It’s got to be kept inside a locked cabinet inside an access-controlled room, not in a golf-club basement. You’re not allowed a mobile phone in the same room. Simply having it in your possession outside a controlled environment is an offence. They’ve been trying to get it back since Trump left office but he/they chose to ignore it. If a regular civilian or military person with the right clearances did this, it’s instant dismissal, probably jail.
This is important. There was apparently an informant, with quite a lot of suspicion that it was a Secret Service agent. Another interesting (but unconfirmed) leak is that the FBI are fingerprinting all the recovered documents to try to establish who had accessed them. If Trump had been showing off to his buddies about how he had a big stack of classified files, then those people would also be liable for prosecution. Their best defense would be to come forward as cooperating witnesses and plead that they did not realize at the time what was going on.
https://twitter.com/MarkSZaidEsq/status/1558143916985171969
he’s agenda fluid.
Deserves more recognition
So, the guy - Ricky Shiffer who attacked the FBI in Cincinnati on Thursday and was later shot and killed by the cops , has already been dismissed by some of the Alt-right sites as a false flag...How pissed off would you be if you were the ghost of Rick?
How pissed off would you be if you were the ghost of Rick?
The ironing is unsurpassed.
It's good to see Trump in trouble, but sadly it wont heal the divisions he's stoked.
I could see another January 6th event on the cards of he gets charged
I agree with someone earlier who said people are getting a bit over excited....see below from a US Law professor in the Guardian
Although it is called the Espionage Act, it does not necessarily mean that Trump took the documents with the intention of passing them to a foreign power. The statute also covers more minor offences – for example, someone who is lawfully in possession of documents, photos and so on and passes them to anyone not entitled to receive it, or fails to hand it over to officials who ought to have it.
It can also apply to someone who “through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody” and fails to report it.
Fines can be imposed, and the justice department may be satisfied with getting the secret documents back under lock and key.
“I still think an arrest and a prosecution are low probability,” Vladeck said. “From the government’s perspective, it seems like at least part of this exercise was about just removing things from President Trump’s possession, and that’s been accomplished, whereas arresting him and prosecuting him raise a whole different slew of political complications.”
I too worry that the division and extremism that he has stoked will boil over.
The only winners here are nations that gain from an unstable, divided USA.
It’s good to see Trump in trouble, but sadly it wont heal the divisions he’s stoked.
I could see another January 6th event on the cards of he gets charged
Yeah, I don't know how you de-escalate that the mess he created
If it starts to look like he's in genuine legal trouble Trump will accuse the FBI of planting any documents he shouldn't have had at the direction of Joe Biden, his lunatic followers will believe every word of it and the US will become even more divided than it already is
If it starts to look like he’s in genuine legal trouble Trump will accuse the FBI of planting any documents he shouldn’t have had at the direction of Joe Biden, his lunatic followers will believe every word of it and the US will become even more divided than it already is
He already has. Thing is, he was such a strategic genius that while he was president, he declassified the fake documents that the FBI planted so possessing them wasn't a crime anyway.
Woppit's post 7 years whicb started this thread referred to '...comedy gold'.
If only.
It's all been dark, divisive and deeply damaging.
The only comedy will be if/when he gets a jail sentence.
When it comes to Trump and legal matters, only one question is worth considering: is he locked up?
Nope, then Teflon Don carries on regardless.
Thing with Trump is that he's quite authentic in his ignorance and petulance. Every other Republican is trying to copy his act, but most of them are graduates of elite universities and their phoniness is transparent. One day, however, someone who is authentically ignorant will turn up and take up the torch. That will be frightening.
Rodney Dangerfield just nailed Trump without knowing it.
Woppit’s post 7 years whicb started this thread referred to ‘…comedy gold’.
If only.
It’s all been dark, divisive and deeply damaging.
The only comedy will be if/when he gets a jail sentence.
I think he’ll do a Jimmy Saville and get away with it all.
I just can’t see him ever doing jail,everyone else yes but him no.
Biden will have to pardon him to avert a civil war.
Biden will have to pardon him to avert a civil war.
I'm not sure on the legal details. A full pardon might let him run again. Just commuting the sentence would not, I guess. One of the implications of a pardon is acceptance of guilt. Trump would obviously twist it into a claim of innocence.
Biden will have to pardon him to avert a civil war.
I think he'd rather have the civil war.
Rodney Dangerfield just nailed Trump without knowing it.
If Trump was like Dangerfield's character in Caddyshack, that would be a vast improvement.
And some of the stuff the FBI recovered from MAL is several big notches beyond 'classified' if the reports are to be believed.
If he really did take TS/SCI categorised documents home with him and refused to return them despite formal requests to do so it's very very hard to see how he avoids jail, if he'd been a 'normal' civvie he wouldn't have been asked nicely or even been publically arrested, he'd have just been dissapeared.
The expression 'Top Secret' gets bandied about in popular culture so much that I think we've lost sight of just how seriously the secrets contained by documents with that designation are guarded in the US system.
The DOJ are handling this with kid gloves because of the huge political aspect but don't underestimate how serious a crime the theft of TS/SCI material is, regardless of whether or not he actually 'did' anything with them.
Biden will have to pardon him to avert a civil war.
I don't think you can back down if it gets to that point. Maybe commute the sentence, but not absolve him of the crimes. Any nutters who want to take on the democratically elected government of the US, with all it's might, well, good luck to them.
Heheh it is kinda funny watching from a distance.
The mental gymnastics from the trump side.
Surely it's a question of strict liability. There's no wiggle room. If you did it you are guilty.. Simple as that.
Not sure if that is a thing in the USA.. But I'd be very surprised if he's not guilty as sin.. The FBI will have known damn well they'll get him on something or they wouldn't have even bothered to raid him in the first place...
It would be too much of a risk for them given the perceived political climate in the USA.
Let's be honest, trump is a real wrong 'un.
If the only outcome of this is that he's barred from running again that's a plus. I suspect that it might be a bit more serious than that though...
But again the small but very vocal group of trumpists are a worry.. So maybe the best political thing to do is bar him from politics.
Then it's up to trump how he deals with the various private law suites against him.
Side note...
He must be running out of heavy hitting lawyers prepared to represent him and must be scraping the barrel now.
If I was an up and coming hot shot solicitor, with a reputation to protect there's no way in hell I'd want to get associated with this craziness.
Biden should maintain his stated policy of strict impartiality.
Leave it to the DoJ.
Indeed! Biden doesn't really have any blood in this game.
You know when trump has done something wrong he keeps his gob shut and hides for a bit.
I believe he went "no comment"
So send him to San Quentin for 5 years
no comment
5th Amendment.
I do wonder if the cult members will be shouting 5 more years at his rallys.
My US colleague, just a regular citizen like us, interested in the whole Trump bit of a mess, and the myriad legal knots he's being tied in, reckoned his only way out ultimately is to do a moonlight flit to Riyadh or Moscow.
Tho you have to wonder if Riyadh would have to balls to give him asylum
susepic - that's why I asked the question in an earlier post...how long before the DoJ declare him a flight risk and confiscate his passport(s).
his only way out ultimately is to do a moonlight flit to Riyadh or Moscow.
Chances of this being possible went down to zero after the raid, I suggest.
When it comes to Trump and legal matters, only one question is worth considering: is he locked up?
Very much doubt he'll get locked up, but it doesn't matter. What is important is that he doesn't get to run for president again. A wrist slap penalty will be enough.
Section 2071 of title 18 of the United States code includes.
"The code states the person shall “be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States”.
Irrespective of what ultimately happens I can only hope he’s wracked with anxiety and uncertainty at the moment and that he can sense the unease around him. ****.
“The code states the person shall “be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States”.
Although I heard somewhere else that the good old constitution sets out the requirements needed to be president, and there's no requirement regarding fines or imprisonment, so does the constitution override the other legislation?
Well, there were no nuclear secrets when the constitution was drafted, and originalists on the Supreme Court will presumably decide that they don't exist, so Donald is off the hook.
he good old constitution sets out the requirements needed to be president, and there’s no requirement regarding fines or imprisonment, so does the constitution override the other legislation?
A quick Google does in fact suggest this might be the case. A supreme court loaded with republicans might very well agree ☹☹
Let the DoJ decide.
Multiple gobby republicans have suddenly gone very silent.
Dems should pile in now as hard as possible and capitaliae to the max before the mid-terms.
Think and behave like trump - opposition is weak, unco-ordinated and leaderless so kick them hard and repeatedly.
Forget nicey nicey; put the boot in - again and again ad nauseam.
The obstruction charge may turn out to be what gets him.
https://twitter.com/NatlSecCnslrs/status/1558489440091242497
"Sometimes they forgot" to retrieve classified documents.
https://twitter.com/costareports/status/1558652795494060033
Not that I believe Russian TV
But ....
https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1558289365004128264?t=NImpVw9PfLmdXe8VFCdDsA&s=09
Could well be nothing to do with Trumpists, but my money is on it being a Trump nut lashing out.
https://twitter.com/LisaDNews/status/1558795937446871042
Users on Truth Social have leaked the names of the FBI agents who took part in the raid.... 😕
^ Breitbart published the warrant yesterday with all the officers names, utter dickheads who knew exactly what they were doing.
Thing is, this has been binary for a long time now.... you're either pro trump, or anti-trump, and nobody who was previously "pro" is switch to "anti" because of this.
I think the objective is just to get him convicted to prevent him running again - but the republican party will pre-empt that by getting him to endorse somebody (Ted Cruz probably) in order to secure the votes of his base, plus all the republicans who wouldn't turn out and vote for Trump.
Sad thing is, I think Ted Cruz would probably win
The democrats need to hurry up and get Dwayne Johnson on-board for a presidential run.
Biden will have to pardon him to avert a civil war.
Versus
Texas can't even keep their power on and get more subsidies from the government than any other state, but yes, Civil War is what will convince Biden to pardon Trump
The other day armed protesters turned up outside an FBI office all tooled up and wearing these military vests and "oh my god, they're serious" "they'll take down the FBI" was banded about..........until it was pointed out that none of the people wearing vests actually had the armour plating in them, because they're heavy and uncomfortable to wear. Not quite the "well regulated militia" they claim to be if they're not even going to make their cosplay outfits accurate.
Users on Truth Social have leaked the names of the FBI agents who took part in the raid….
According to people with accounts, Trump's social media app sent a push notification to all users pointing them to the unredacted search warrant on Breibart.
https://twitter.com/donie/status/1558225720488235008?s=20&t=asCriNy4g1y8YSChw4xCBA
https://twitter.com/donie/status/1558177585028145153?s=20&t=asCriNy4g1y8YSChw4xCBA
Trump has spent his entire adult life subject to law suits, legal actions, threats of arrest. In some years he has had dozens of legal actions against him at the same time. As former POTUS he has just raised the game but it is still variation on the old theme.
I honestly can't see this being much different. He'll stall, duck, dive, grift, shout, sulk, distract, blame, counter blame, deal and throw other people under the bus whilst whipping up hate and civil danger. Ultimately he'll just walk free, just like he has always done.
Trump has spent his entire adult life subject to law suits, legal actions, threats of arrest. In some years he has had dozens of legal actions against him at the same time. As former POTUS he has just raised the game but it is still variation on the old theme.
Yes and no. As far as I can tell, much of what Trump has dealt with/is dealing with is civil suits. Business disagreements, tenants suing him, banks chasing him, local govt re tax disputes or whatever. In those circumstances his ability to buy people off, stall and dissemble has served him well. After all, in civil cases in the US (and elsewhere) those with the deepest pockets can win by drawing things out until the plaintiff runs out of money. Even his recent taking of the 5th is in response to a civil case.
This is different. This is a very clear criminal case and he won't be able to "deal" in the same way. With federal cases like this, the rules are stricter and the options way more limited. Assuming he's guilty (ha!) the best he could hope for would be some kind of plea bargain. But given he is essentially the the capo di tutti capi there's nobody for him to give up (unless...)
Point is he's dealing with a different type of challenge here. These are federal criminal charges he's potentially facing and his usual tactics just won't wash
The other day armed protesters turned up outside an FBI office all tooled up and wearing these military vests and “oh my god, they’re serious” “they’ll take down the FBI” was banded about……….until it was pointed out that none of the people wearing vests actually had the armour plating in them, because they’re heavy and uncomfortable to wear. Not quite the “well regulated militia” they claim to be if they’re not even going to make their cosplay outfits accurate.
I saw an article the other day referring to these guys as the Gravy Seals 😂
Y'all-Qaeda is more accurate 😉
My favourite is a platoon of Forrest Trumps 🤠
It just keeps on getting worse for Donald. Now Rudy is effectively being asked where his loyalties lie (Rudy's skin obvs)
Furthermore, it's not just Rudy. That paragon of virtue and straight dealing Lindsey Graham is also going to have to choose between perjury and Donald..
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/15/politics/lindsey-graham-georgia-investigation/index.html
My god, but I would love to be a fly on the wall at DT's daily strategy/crisis meetings, though the FBI are probably getting it all word for word anyway
franksinatra
Full MemberTrump has spent his entire adult life subject to law suits, legal actions, threats of arrest. In some years he has had dozens of legal actions against him at the same time. As former POTUS he has just raised the game but it is still variation on the old theme.
Yeeeah, but, there's one thing between using your scary lawyers to defraud small businesses that can't afford to fight you, or dragging out cases til they run out of money, and trying to do the same with the united states government. There isn't a bigger dog. And you can't make a big public noise and then quietly settle out of course with a big fat NDA attached.
I do think he has a pretty good chance of just dying before it comes to an end though.
Turns out he took the documents by accident because he didn't have time to pack properly because he thought the insurrection would overturn the election.
https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/status/1558847337354625024
I’d never have thought it would be the removal company who get the blame.
Trump's lawyers --- "How about you send us over a copy of the affidavit? "
American Justice dept ---- "Aye right,beat it,ya roasters"
😀 😀 😜
Turns out he took the documents by accident because he didn’t have time to pack properly because he thought the insurrection would overturn the election.
And I'm presuming the defence for not returning them when requested to on multiple occasions since is that he pinky promises to bring them back when he's inaugurated as next president?
I think he's saying that he didn't need to give them back because a president can just declassify anything he wants. Also, Obama and Hillary Clinton.
because a president can just declassify anything he wants.
Well, no he can't really.
It's not just a case of scribbling out the Top Secret on the document, there's a procedure and he didn't follow it.
Well, no he can’t really.
It’s not just a case of scribbling out the Top Secret on the document, there’s a procedure and he didn’t follow it.
That's in reality world. In Trump world, he can declassify stuff by just thinking about it. Paperwork is just another Deep State plot anyway.
I think this means that there is an ongoing investigation.
https://twitter.com/SarahNLynch/status/1559252746108280834
Yep, ongoing criminal investigation.
https://twitter.com/hugolowell/status/1559277226939539459
He really is a 10d chess player.
That he knew the FBI would carry out a raid and plant evidence and so declassified the relevant materials whilst still president is true genius.
Or is the FBI planting evidence an old excuse now?
Or is the FBI planting evidence an old excuse now?
I'm pretty sure it was a genius plot to expose Deep State agents in the Socialist FBI. He declassified the documents secretly knowing that the Socialists who have infiltrated the FBI would plant them. The Deep State Socialists behind it will be exposed any day now, but please donate $50 or more if you want to find out more.
This is actually a very important point. No serious lawyers will represent him because he constantly lies and also never pays his bills. So he's stuck with clowns who think real courts are like Better Call Saul.
https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1559537028131393539
Does this mean that there is a second investigation in to the Orange Roaster?
It seems that someone has sought to unseal a different case, as part of unsealing the Mar-a-Lago search warrant. This then (maybe) means there is another case, currently not in public realm, against him?
https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1559167998971224066
I enjoyed this.
https://twitter.com/kalaeveryday/status/1559355364578955267
The problems just keep on multiplying for big DT. Now Allen Weisselberg has agreed to testify against the Trump organisation..
And fixer-turned-DT's-own-Dominic-Cummings Michael Cohen has been across the airwaves saying that DT was holding the docs as blackmail collateral to be used if/when he is arrested and that Jared was the man on the inside..
rodent - I don't think that reporting is correct; Weisselberg has, apparently, decided to plead guilty but will not testify against trump.
We'll only find out when he (weisselberg) is in the dock.
As for kushner - hard to believe that he's anything other than upto his neck in whatever trump was doing.
Fair point Frank, it is indeed a bit more complicated than originally reported. This from CNN
The former chief financial officer of the Trump Organization is expected to plead guilty Thursday to a 15-year tax fraud scheme, but he will not enter into a cooperation agreement to aid New York prosecutors in their criminal investigation of the real estate companies' finances, a person familiar with the matter said.
Allen Weisselberg, a fiercely loyal, long-time employee of former President Donald Trump's company, is in advanced talks to plead to the indictment, the person said. The judge overseeing the case has set a hearing for Thursday morning.
Under the terms of the deal, which is still being finalized, Weisselberg would receive a five-month prison sentence but would serve about 100 days behind bars, the person said. Weisselberg faced up to 15 years in prison.
Weisselberg will not sign up as a cooperator, the person said, but he will testify at trial -- if the case moves forward and the Trump Organization does not itself reach a plea agreement. The judge set the trial for October 24.
So he's basically not going to cooperate with the prosecution in terms of helping them build a case against Trump, but will testify (under oath obviously) should the case reach court in October. If he testifies it will certainly be to the detriment of the Trump organisation, and probably to Trump himself.
So probably 50/50. He doesn't want to cooperate, but as part of his plea deal will take the stand and sing (assumedly) if it reaches court