A surprising number of people think the white nationalists have a point.
This is the key, and if anything, it pushes them further away from the left
*calling everyone who disagrees with you a Nazi sympathiser doesn't engender them to vote for you*
The key to the polls is understanding that approval of Trump has always been less important than their disapproval of the alternative (Hillary last time, who next time?) - the people who don't understand this are still shaking their heads wondering how he won.
The actions of the left at the moment, regardless of the effect on trump, are pushing millions of normal, sane Americans away from the Democratic Party. They are successfully painting themselves as a party interested only in transgender bathrooms and tearing down statues, Vast swathes of the flyover states look at that and will hold their nose and vote for anything that prevents them taking power.
If people can't see that Trump is willing to be called all the names under the sun in the process of allowing them to do that, then they still haven't worked out how he won.
Those tactics will work in the short term - but they won't in the long term due to changing demographics in terms of voter age and ethnicity.
Steve Bannon vows to 'go to war' for Trump agenda after sacking
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40985180
Interesting choice of words. Not so United States of America anyone?
changing demographics in terms of voter age and ethnicity.
The very opposite
Youth and ethnicity are [i]increasingly[/i] centred around the areas that the Democrats always win anyway - the key to winning US elections is winning Votes in the right places, which is how Hillary managed to win the popular vote but not the presidency
They are successfully painting themselves as a party interested only in transgender bathrooms and tearing down statues,
Yep I agree that is an issue for them. Bannon was quoted as saying that was pretty much the plan in [url= http://prospect.org/article/steve-bannon-unrepentant ]his swan song American Prospect interview:[/url]
[i]“The Democrats,” he said, “the longer they talk about identity politics, I got ’em. I want them to talk about racism every day. If the left is focused on race and identity, and we go with economic nationalism, we can crush the Democrats.”[/i]
If people can't see that Trump is willing to be called all the names under the sun in the process of allowing them to do that, then they still haven't worked out how he won.
True, but next time he will have to run on his record, and that consists of nothing but failure.
True, but next time he will have to run on his record, and that consists of nothing but failure.
What if he's not even planning to run? Where does that leave the Democrats?
The thing that oh-so many of you don't get is that the vast majority of Americans think Nazis may be assholes, but they're assholes with a constitutional right to free speech.
The republican core vote hears one message from this whole thing: "They're not just coming to take your statues, they're not just coming to take your guns, they're coming to take away your God-damned right to free speech as well"
Pence 2020 is rolling forward, and that's far, far to the political right of where Trump would ever take them
Vast swathes of the flyover states look at that and will hold their nose and vote for anything that prevents them taking power.
They may have prepared to do that once, they saw Trump on their tellies every night they knew him, and they listened him saying the things the say about politicians. But the ugly truth is that their man is letting them down (Bigly) I doubt the electorate will make that leap of faith again, whether it's trump or something like him
And what?
That's the problem, you haven't explained what happens then.
You think they're going to go out and vote for a democrat instead?
The trump presidency will end in a new technological age in America as they push to invent a time machine and go back in time to stop him becoming president. Thus creating a paradox and ending the universe as we know it, ergo trump=end of the universe so trump=bad.
the hardcore trum supporters who will be there at the end are , as they have shown, willing to vote for anyone as long as they claim to be right wing
They will never vote for anyone other than right winfg candidte
However , on the off chance you want a grown up debate, the real problem for the GOP is that middle ground waivers and even reliable old republicans are leaving the party in disgust at POTUS
The real issue is whether an other republican can get them back in the fold rather than whether democrats can attract Trump supporters - especially the kind left supporting him when no one else is [ KKK leaders that sort of voter]
Democrats will be very motivated to turn out in the next election.
the vast majority of Americans think Nazis may be assholes, but they're assholes with a constitutional right to free speech
Yes they can speak but they also need to be seen as abhorrent and not pandered to/defended hence the no one running to defend the president except Clansmen. How many republicans need to say this for you to see that the only folk not attacking them are the alt-right* [ and there appeasers] as even the republican party sees them as having no place in the modern
Paul Ryan
(@SpeakerRyan)
We must be clear. White supremacy is repulsive. This bigotry is counter to all this country stands for. There can be no moral ambiguity.
Its a rare day when this leftie finds himself in agreement with Ryan and the Ex Bush presidents - intolerance** of Nazism is everyone default setting unless they are a NAzi
* the new word for racist fascists so lets call them what they are
** they have the right to free speech they should not be getting the defence of POTUS or anyone else for exercising it for they are odious anti democrats who threaten minorities and all our liberties with their hatred and bigotry
And what?
Voter apathy and as mentioned above, borderline voters shifting.
they should not be getting the defence of POTUS or anyone else for exercising it
The vast majority disagree, Voltaire is utterley embedded in US culture
The vast majority disagree, Voltaire is utterley embedded in US culture
they have the right to free speech
You think they're going to go out and vote for a democrat instead?
You said it yourself - if the Democrats field someone less unlikeable than Trump /Pence / whoever. And the voters will have had time to take a long look at just how unlikeable those characters are.
Who wants to win a race to the bottom?
(ie, the spin doctors for (all) political parties these days have become so self-obsessed, so absolutely focused on "winning" or "destroying the opposition" they have lost sight of what they were trying to win.)
Voltaire is utterley embedded in US culture
What does that mean?
you keep telling me what the vast majority think without offering a shred of evidenceThe vast majority disagree
Even the republican party does not think the POTUS should be defending them, people are leaving in droves rather than be associated with him, so forgive me for not taking your unevidenced assertion as true.
Yes they may well agree with the first amendment that does not mean they wish to defend those who exercise it in this way
Even the republican party
FFS - since when gas the Republican Party been pro Trump?
Thanks for the evidence to support your view- I was expecting you to immediately change track and offer no evidence at all for the claim you had made. I further feared you would tell me, days later, you answered me
Forgive me for doubting you
So Kimbers has posted that pointless Clinton woman celebrating with a pint. Ya, we all know that is a half pint full glass (an expression so you can go measure if you wish). 😆
So I have not participated in this President Trump thread for a while because I noticed no new points presented. Plenty of exciting people though.
Anyway, for President Trump I can imagine it is normal day at office. Firing and hiring which is the new norm.
If the politicians can't handle the new leadership style then shut the front door. 😆
[quote=ninfan ]I do find the whole "responsible for your supporters" argument amusing
Especially since the KKK came out of the Democratic Party
House
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/charlottesville/page/20#post-8659162
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/charlottesville/page/20#post-8659173
ninfan - Membergas the Republican Party
Bingo.
Voltaire is utterley embedded in US culture
What does that mean?
Still remain uneducated!
Anyone?
Voltaire is utterley embedded in US culture
What does that mean?
Still remain uneducated!
Anyone?
Voltaire is utterley embedded in US culture
What does that mean?
Still remain uneducated!
Anyone?
What does that mean?
It's just ninfan channeling tiresomebore and making incomprehensible statements designed to appear intelligent.
Anyone
Oh, look, impatient leftie demands an answer, literally hopping up and down on the post button when other people had more important things to do.
I'd rather keep you waiting now. Why not guess? we could play warmer/colder for a while just to keep the suspense going.
Oh don't keep us in suspense ninfan - do tell us what you had to do that was more important? Was it turning the forum off and back on again?
Well my limited knowledge is this but i will give it a go
Voltaire
Famous for
1) arguing for free speech/tolerance
2) disliked religion but argued for its tolerance in society - see above.
I assume ninfan is trying to say the right to free speech [ even if you do not like what they say] is embedded in the US culture. However can i just advise against trying to burn the US flag or disrespect their national anthem as they are not that tolerant of your rights ans certainly not the sort of person who is using the first amendment to be an open racist.
Whilst I accept Voltaire was contemporaneous to the constitution I very much doubt many US citizens can explain him and I personally thought British philosophical thought and legal statutes dating to the Magna Carter had greater influence than French Philosophers in general and him in particular.
Now someone has answered i assume he will post his ready and waiting quote from wherever
BTW I'm still awaiting a reply from ninfan on the Charlottesville thread when he has a spare moment in between all his important activities. Having to take very, very big hops here as it's over a day since I last mentioned it.
I think you mean, figuratively hopping up and down on the post button. Sorry!
Btw just to keep on topic, I don't think Trump will resign or be impeached, far worse for Trump is he is realising how powerless he actually is!
right to free speech [ even if you do not like what they say] is embedded in the US culture.
No, Voltaire went beyond the [i]right[/i] to free speech, Voltaire said that he would [i]defend[/i] it - your own argument was that POTUS should [b]not[/b] defend their right to free speech, that's utterley alien to US culture.
The mayor tried to ban the march, they went to court and that van was ruled unconstitutional, the left then tried to do what the law would not. The militia, sworn to protect the constitution sought to protect that right.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/17/white-supremacists-militias-private-police-215498
However can i just advise against trying to burn the US flag
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Eichman
[quote=ninfan ]The militia, sworn to protect the constitution
All of the constitution?
So your argument is if i burn a US flag the KKK will surround me to protect me from protest whilst defending my right?
PS what i said was
Yes they can speak but they also need to be seen as abhorrent and not pandered to/defended hence the no one running to defend the president except Clansmen
What makes you think I objected to free speech ? See that is the problem with the alt right always making things up and not accurately repeating what was said....
Voltaire went beyond the right to free speech, Voltaire said that he would defend it
Would he smack someone in the mouth if they tried to revent free speech?
First ammendment: you can say what you like.
Second ammendment: I have a gun.
Who wrote the consitution and the ammendments?
He didn't say that he'd defend it. That would have been Voltaire's biographer Evelyn Beatrice Hall.
the hamsters are having a tough time of it all
I thought that JY was just demonstrating accurate repeating 🙂
Free speech, JY can say what he likes as many times as he likes.
Yes on free speech take a look at those who have decided to sit during the anthem at sporting events. Various groups in the US demand their rights are protected. It seems they fall short on not being shot by policemen, women's freedom to seek medical services and the rights of those not in power.
Do we need to dig up some old Trump campaign speechs to show how he uses racist views and opinions to generate support.
@ aracer i just find it saves times to post the same thing four times with ninfan rather than spread it out over fives days and three threads like some lesser members do 😉
Objecting to someone who says something or refusing to endorse them personally or their movement is not trying to prevent free speech its exercising it in denouncing and vilifying fascists . This is what everyone's default setting should be and the president did not pass this simplest of tests.
Me , ryan and the Bushes in agreement about a republican President. He is indeed a great unifying force that Mr trump
No, Voltaire went beyond the right to free speech, Voltaire said that he would defend it - your own argument was that POTUS should not defend their right to free speech, that's utterley alien to US culture.
That's not what happened, though. The president can defend their right to free speech, whilst rightly explaining that their views are abhorrent and unacceptable in today's society. This argument isn't about whether free speech is OK - it's about whether Neo-Nazis are OK.
For the record, I don't think Ninfan is being stupid - I think he's being deliberately obtuse. Is that trolling? Probably.
Anyway, nothing is as concrete as the constitution would suggest. Free speech is a relative concept in today's world. You don't see many people espousing the right to free speech when it comes to Fundamental Islamic hate speech. I don't recall seeing the [s]alt-right[/s] [i]openly racist fascists[/i]* crying about Abu Hamza's right to free speech before his deportation and incarceration in the USA.
*I don't think it's fair to hide behind a snappy-sounding banner. Let's call them what they are.
The president can defend their right to free speech, whilst rightly explaining that their views are abhorrent and unacceptable in today's society. This argument isn't about whether free speech is OK - it's about whether Neo-Nazis are OK.
And he did
The only thing upsetting you lot is that he said that both sides bore some respondibility
Even well known right wing source The Hill agrees
take a look at those who have decided to sit during the anthem at sporting events. Various groups in the US demand their rights are protected
I don't remember anyone trying to punch them in the face for sitting down
