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No worries. CM got a lot of negative press and his TV was cancelled so perhaps he changed his ways. I'm sure he does some things right too so no harm in watching his cherry-picked shows. Good to be aware though.
Reading with interest. Our dog is also a rescue, from Spain, we've had him just over a year now, and his recall is good. It helped that he's really food-driven (we assume he was scavenging for a while, as when we first got him he would eat ANYTHING), so it was pretty easy training him with treats. He also doesn't tend to range when he's off the lead, he's about ten now and just plods along, and doesn't generally GAF about any other animals; we've had him (always on a lead, obvs) near sheep, pigs, horses, cows, chickens, geese, it's as if they're not even there.
Because of that still-strong food drive, if he gets the whiff of, I dunno, a dropped sausage roll, then he's not going to come back, because he knows that sausage roll is much better than treat he'll get if he comes back. In that case though, it's normally easy enough to just wait till he's eaten whatever it is, or go over to him and stick him on the lead.
However, out walking earlier this week, he was off the lead behind me, and I saw a couple of hares about 50ft away in front of me. They legged it, obviously, soon way out of sight. He then padded past me, got what I assume was a whiff of them and went MENTAL; legging it round like a spaniel, nose to the ground, running off in the direction the hares went (and a good distance away at that), running back, off again, he was really, really agitated and there was no way he was coming back, his head had clearly 'gone'. This went on for a good five minutes, and I only managed to get him as at one point he circled round back past me and I managed to grab him. I won't lie, it gave me a bit of a scare, I've never seen him like that.
The bored thing is key. We have had loads of spaniels. You need to be engaged with them on their walks if you’re out in the countryside as there’s plenty of other stuff that they find interesting other than just running alongside you. I lose count of the people I see walking their dog chatting to their mate whilst the dog runs amok or people on the phone walking the dog and the dog off chasing birds, deer, kids etc. You need to engage with the dog mentally on a walk not just walk/ run it to exhaustion. The dog basically needs to have more fun with you that it would chasing deer. You can do this by having it off the lead but challenging it repeatedly by calling it back, sending it off (not too far), hiding a ball at the side of the path rather than lobbing it miles into the undergrowth where birds nest and deer may lay up.
Anyone who thinks it’s fun to let their dog chase deer or ignore it is either trolling or just plain dumb. No more needs saying on that.
Training dogs is tough and it’s not the fun part of dog ownership that you or the kids think!
JESUS CHRIST, FENTON!!!
apologies. poor recall...
Electric shock collars were going to be banned in england in 2018. dunno if the legislation every got passed. Banned in Wales in 2010 and in Scotland are banned
Banned in Wales legal in England and Scotland.
Do you fancy testing that in court?
I would have no issue with that. The law your quoting is about causing unnecessary pain and the do not "condone" e-collars.
As I have said, if used properly they should not be causing pain at all, simply a stimulus and discomfort to the point you turn the dog away from its prey drive.
I fully accept that they can cause a pain if used extremely. Once they have been used successfully then there is no need to keep using it.
I was at a shoot once and a guy used a collar as a punishment, it was taken from him and left in a river.
There will always be difference in opinions here, I'm simply stating what's what for the OP, if you don't like collars , don't use them.
If you use any form of negative reinforcement it will unravel at some point; often resulting in a bad mannered dog who may snap at some point. Positive reinforcement and reward is the only way to get lasting and satisfying results.
When used correctly the dog is conditioned to the collar as a positive reinforcement. You are using the collar to gain the dogs attention. Positive reinforcement follows immediately.
Been doing loads of homework on their proper use as I may have to use mine.
Dogs been wearing it on and off but it hasn't even been charged up yet.
It won't get used until I'm happy that the dog won't be negatively affected by it's use.
This is purely to turn him away from his prey drive and stop him chasing / tracking when he's not supposed to.
It's pretty uncomfortable knowing a dog will track across ploughed fields or motorways with no other thought in his head.
Strangely he is broken to sheep and cattle ! lol little bugger. Hates peacocks mind.
go on, have a think about that scenario and get back to me
Erm, nope, don't see what you're driving at.
The law about dogs chasing deer basically states it's only illegal if it proven it was carried out deliberately.
They are NOT legal in Scotland. Absolutly not. Read the quoted piece.
Again - chasing deer thing - illegal whether intentional or not. You are confusing the anti hunting legislation which does have that proviso with other law around animals which does not. for example your dog MUST be under control at all times.
They are not illegal in Scotland
<blockquoteI have a Karelian Bear Dog from Finland that are used for hunting deer, boar and bears.
He stays on a lead 99% of the time as no command’s/shouts/whistle/promises of cheese get through that prey drive when it cuts in.
This - you have bought a hound / hunting dog, that has been bred for many generations to chase and hunt things...
We have an English Pointer - who has all the same problems. He will chase anything - bees, leaves, little animals, the cat down the road, and mostly squirrels.
His recall is awful - but slowly getting better. We using a training lead (20m) to walk him, so he can run around a lot - and we can practise recall with him. But it is little steps.
There is no food that can break the thrill of the hunt n seek. He distinctly has two body languages - being a pet ( where his ears go back and he wags his tail) and hunt - ears up , tail between legs, or straight out - and he will not respond to anything.
Next stage will be a gun-dog trainer - he is a bright dog - just very wilful.
We take him to as safe field once a week - so he can run, and hunt, and run and hunt, and run and hunt for an hour. And we know we can get him back.
But also time is a big factor - under 6 months and they do not really see you as being the meaning of their life. Over that and the risks of buggering off do get balanced against doing a runner ...
They are not illegal in Scotland
Well the scottish government think they are and have made guidence to the legislation that makes it clear that their use is illegal.
so you are simply wrong on this.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/electric-shock-collars-dogs-banned-scotland-590688
https://www.gov.scot/publications/guidance-dog-training-aids/
That Scottish government note doesn’t actually state shock collars are illegal. It states it is guidance and their use could be considered in prosecution, that does not equate with being illegal.
They are not illegal in Scotland. You are wrong
Pedantic. Its clear that their use is illegal. ie it breaches the other acts as its animal cruelty and the guidence makes that clear. IE there is no excuse for using them
Ms Cunningham said she had made the decision after listening to the concerns that had been raised - particularly over the ready availability on the internet of cheap devices which can be bought by anyone and used to deliver painful electric shocks.
She added: "I have decided to take steps to effectively and promptly ban their use in Scotland.
"Causing pain to dogs by inappropriate training methods is clearly completely unacceptable and I want there to be no doubt that painful or unpleasant training for dogs will not be tolerated".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-42807728
Their use is Brads - read what the scottish government says.
You could and would be prosecuted for their use. that is 100% clear.
Just because you want something to be legal does not mean it is
Same as not having your dogs under control is illegal
Same as causing distress to wildlife ( ie accdentally chasing deer) is illegal
Had a border collie cross that used to do this when out with the bike. I used to have just sit down and wait for him to come back from chasing deer. Guess he always wondered why I didn’t join in.
Even shooting uk knows they are banned
https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/electric-dog-training-collars-banned-in-scotland-97777
Their use is Brads – read what the scottish government says.
Easy win available, can you show the relevant legislation banning their use rather than press announcements or guidance notes.
There is no specific ban. What has been done is by using the guidance making it clear that their use is illegal under existing law.
Read the quotes FFS. Its in black and white. The scottish government says so, the kennel club agrees, shooting UK agrees.
We're currently on exactly the same part of training with our rescue spaniel.
When we first let her off the lead her recall was most excellent as she (according to our behaviourist) has become more confident in herself as she's settled in her recall has gone to pot. She now only gets off the lead when we are at the beach.
Days like this feel very far away at the moment.
Given Roseanna Cunningham is very local to me, I better not a) use a shock collar b) let my hound chase the local deer population through her garden!
So I am picking up a bit of a theme here (bit slow perhaps like my dog), I/we need to invest more time and energy in the training. The idea that we will walk along the river Earn whilst 'Rafi' sniffs around within an acceptable range and if he gets a sniff of deer/hare we will whistle/call him and he will dutifully fight against his prey drive and return to us is perhaps unrealistic. I/we need to resign ourselves to several nmonths/years of training which may ultimately result in keeping him on the lead at all times.
Irrespective of the legality issue, shock collars are a no no as they are inhumane, may be counter-productive. I just have this nagging thought that if we can provoke a pavlovian response to certain situations we may save us and him from a huge amount of pain long term. Not saying I am going to go down that route.
Yet msp’s think they’re not illegal yet.
17th June 2020
Electric dog collars could be banned in Scotland as MSPs pass bill
Kennel club say something similar
Kennel Club urges cross-party collaboration in Scotland to fully ban cruel shock collars
Published on 15 June 2020 at 11:16am
In my original post I said that shock collars are (indirectly) illegal in Scotland. This is true in that their use is potentially illegal. The Scottish Government is instructing courts to consider that their use may constitute an offence of causing unnecessary suffering under the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006. So yes, the collars themselves are not banned, but use of them is likely to be seen as a criminal offence by the courts.
Being pedantic serves no purpose here, if a police officer sees you using a shock collar, you could end up in court for it. You pendency will not get you acquitted.
But, should it be their legality, or lack of, that helps you to decide if they are an appropriate training aid? The British Veterinary Association says:
Research has shown that the application of an electric shock to dogs or cats, even at a low level, can cause physiological and behavioural responses associated with stress, pain, and fear
The only organisations that support their continued use are field sports and gamekeeper associations and they are hardly the last bastions of animal welfare excellence.
Their use is Brads – read what the scottish government says.
Their use is not illegal. You are wrong.
"causing unnecessary suffering to a protected animal"
Collars do not cause unnecessary suffering unless they are used in a complete wrong manner.
Same as a stick, rolled up newspaper or a hand.
They are not illegal. Quite simple really can't understand why you can't work that out.
they are inhumane
No they aren't They can be if wielded by a ****.
I understand folk don't like them, they can usually be spotted by ignoring every other single piece of text I've posted about how to use them correctly, but that's moot.
The OP asked for info, I gave them some.
I appreciate the info Brads.
Whatever happens there is no way we would do the shock collar thing ourselves we would get a pro to do it. However at present I am minded to re-focus on the training.
When we first let her off the lead her recall was most excellent as she (according to our behaviourist) has become more confident in herself as she’s settled in her recall has gone to pot. She now only gets off the lead when we are at the beach.
That was us exactly. I am now told all we were doing was reinforcing his prey drive.
Brads - yes they are - go on - PM me your name and address and I'll report you for animal cruelty ( which is what you are doing) and then we can get it tested in the courts.
causing unnecessary suffering to a protected animal
is exactly what you are doing
their use is illegal. Thats it.
The OP asked for info, I gave them some.
Wrong info
I also have a 2.5 year old gsp, and know all about their deafness as soon as she smells a pheasant.
It is difficult trying to find anything which is more appealing to them as the hunt but I have a ball on a rope, a hunting dummy, a ball and treats on me, so she doesn’t know what she get if she comes to me.
The problem is nothing is as good as a live pheasant, I have even tried training with a dead bird but she is not interested in them at all, didn’t even want to pick it up.
She has always been called by a whistle However,I am presently working on an stop and look at me whistle now.
Which is starting to work but has to be constant. It is always worth seeing the danger before they do, and never letting them occupy themselves for too long, before giving them something todo for you.
Most dogs aren't interested in a live animal, they are interested in chasing a live animal. The thrill is the chase.
Difficult to always have a live bird in your back pocket. Although I have considered it.
What you don’t want to be is the person who takes away the fun, you want to be a better source of fun than the bird who just flew away anyway.
It’s always going to be hard, as someone has said above, you’re trying to train out hundreds of years of breeding and instinct.
I think it’s why dogs like MTBing so much, you’re going at their pace, over rough ground with the thrill of the chase.
I think it’s why dogs like MTBing so much, you’re going at their pace, over rough ground with the thrill of the chase.
It also adds something extra for the human, no switching off ever while the dog is loose. It is mentally tiring for the new trail-dog owner. I can manage around 10km at a pedestrian pace whilst Bodie is learning and ageing. Around 2 years down the line I may get to concentrate on going quickly through features but for the minute I need to know where he is and what may be about to distract him.
Erm, nope, don’t see what you’re driving at.
Oh right, this. Well (apart from the fact I was taking the piss to start with, you know, there was an emoji?), put simply, when deer run away, you (and the dog come to that) really really can't catch them. Let alone check on their wellbeing.
However at present I am minded to re-focus on the training.
We have an all-purpose 'emergency stop' command. Our dog will stop whatever it is up to and do this (a lie 'DOWN') command. We have also a whistle version of that command. It stops any undesirable behaviour. You then have the attention of the dog and you can try a recall.
Years of repetition and reward.
Keep at it 🙂
Brads
NOpe - I am quoting the politicians who state quite clearly the position which is the use of shock collars breaks the law. Very clear. Also the opinion of the Kennel club
So clear that even shooting UK think that they are illegal to use
All quoted to you.
<blockquoteI have a Karelian Bear Dog from Finland that are used for hunting deer, boar and bears.
He stays on a lead 99% of the time as no command’s/shouts/whistle/promises of cheese get through that prey drive when it cuts in.
This – you have bought a hound / hunting dog, that has been bred for many generations to chase and hunt things
He was a rescue and thought to be a Heinz57/unknown. A subsequent DNA test in our ownership showed he is a 100% KBD. Super intelligent has learnt ~50+ words/ hand signal's - left, right, on, under, jump, go round, here, wait, cross etc so is fine on a long lead when out walking but is off like a bullet if deer are in range.
Really is an unsuitable dog for the UK - perfect for Finland where they are used for hunting or bear protection in US and Japan national parks. I only know of one other in the UK so not really an issue.
I would hate to 'shock' him to try and prevent him from wanting to do what he has been singularly bred to do so he stays on a (long) lead apart from in a few local benign parks at dusk when it's quiet or Formby beach pre Covid.
put simply, when deer run away, you (and the dog come to that) really really can’t catch them.
OK I was confused by
Best thing is to just go home, they find their way back eventually
which I read as going home without the dog, hence leaving the dog to run around with the deer. Still, if as you say a dog can't catch a deer, there's nothing to be concerned about is there?
NOpe – I am quoting the politicians who state quite clearly the position which is the use of shock collars breaks the law. Very clear. Also the opinion of the Kennel club
So clear that even shooting UK think that they are illegal to use
All quoted to you.
I disagree entirely with the use of shock collars and see them as entirely unnecessary. However thankfully politicians opinion doesn't make law, legislation does. If their use breaks other laws then the courts will decide, but as there seems to be continuing moves to ban them properly it's fairly obvious that the current legislation doesn't effectively ban their use.
Qualified dog trainer here. I had the same issue with my dog about 7 years ago - high prey drive dog that loved to chase cattle, deer, horses, sheep and small prey. Led me down this path.
You need to build up the recall away from any distractions - get it super solid and then add in some distance (how far away you are from the dog), then add in distractions (dogs, picnics, people, movement). Practice it on every walk. It's a slow but really rewarding process.
Make your time with the dog super fun so he wants to hang around. Every walk you can spend 5-10mins of the walk building this up - do this every day and you'll have a super attentive dog that listens and reacts to you. As Mildred said (who gave some of the best advice on this thread) establish what aspects of the predatory sequence you dog loves to do (e.g. chase) and give them an appropriate outlet for this - plus you can use this to enhance your recall training.
If he strays too far from you call him back - don't let him rehearse chasing stuff or wandering too far from you. The more he rehearses this the more he'll do it. Best to nip it in the bud.
Until your recall is rock solid, avoid any areas where there are distractions (animals or smells of animals) and if you have to go in these areas keep him on a long line / lead. Once his recall is rock solid and you feel confident you can let him have some freedom and use either the long line left to drag behind him (On a harness - not a collar) or a drag line which is a shorter lead with no handle that give you a chance to catch him should you need to.
Unless you want to ruin your dog and make things much worse don't bollock him when he returns; don't try to dominate him; don't listen to Caeser Milan or similar trainers; DON'T use a shock collar (whether legal or illegal - they are such a bad device and have been found to cause so many problems).
I'd suggest finding a good trainer in your area. Give them a call and discuss with them your problem and get a feel for how you might be able to work with them. https://www.imdt.uk.com/find-a-qualified-imdt-trainer
However thankfully politicians opinion doesn’t make law, legislation does. If their use breaks other laws then the courts will decide,
Its not just a politicians opinion. Its the minister in charge clarifying the guidance about what is cruelty to animals and stating clearly that the use of a shock collar is illegal under the act. The guidence becomes part of the law.
its very clear, its in black and white, its accepted they are illegal by every major player - its only Brads who thinks he knows better
yes primary legislation would be better. It will come.
Its not just a politicians opinion. Its the minister in charge clarifying the guidance about what is cruelty to animals and stating clearly that the use of a shock collar is illegal under the act. The guidence becomes part of the law.
That's just a ministers opinion. As we've repeated seen with the Corona virus guidance, it often has no basis in law, and is used to distract from the fact that they've avoided legislating appropriately.
its very clear, its in black and white, its accepted they are illegal by every major player – its only Brads who thinks he knows better
yes primary legislation would be better. It will come.
Read what the actual guidance says.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/guidance-dog-training-aids/It is sadly only advisory. Without it being explicitly legislated against, and with no apparent case law to suggest otherwise shock collars are legal to own and use in Scotland and England. There doesn't appear to have been a single prosecution for their use on a dog. The Welsh appear to have done it properly.
I have and linked to it. It does not work in the way you think. the guidence becomes part of the law tho can be overturned by precedent - what it means is that the use of a shock collar is considered cruel treatment under the act
NOw the kennel club agree its illegal in Scotland, shooting UK agree, the government says it is.
to make a defense ( and you could try) you would have to show that it was not cruel. Just using a collar is assumed now to be cruel. Thats the effect the guidence has Ie the use of shock collars breaches the act.
Get a rope washing line or two so youve got some length, attach to collar, let drag, take for a walk, once he gets to the limit and you call him back put your foot on it if he doesnt come.
You are wrong in so many ways but that's fine, you're allowed your opinion.
It states no such thing and guidance is not law and does not become law.
Use of a collar is not assumed to be unnecessary cruelty. Your simply making that up to suit your opinion.
If you don't like them that's fine. But don't manufacture fake facts about laws that don't exist. Or opinions of bodies that are not what you are telling people
Absolutely my final word on this one.