Sorry, but I can.
No you can't.
Got something to put up against my Surly, under controlled double-blind conditions?
shh, they'll be telling you they can tell the difference between 256AAC/320MP3 and FLAC next. 😆
I've offered you the opportunity to take me up on this many times over for the past ten years.
Tier 4 dude.
But, yes. Or, we could have a coffee. Whichever.
I mean, holy shit,
I could wager a power kite. I've got too many of those too.
Cougar : But, bookshelf speakers a metre apart? Sub directly under the right speaker?
Not bookshelf, they’re monitor speakers designed for near field listening which where I sit (yeah, very comfortable chair) puts me right in the sweet spot for listening, sub is also placed in the optimum spot for uniform bass response in the room and crossover is set accordingly. I prefer sensible listening volumes, loud enough to feel the bass but not obnoxious levels.
they’re monitor speakers designed for near field listening
Why have you bothered 'treating the room' then?
sub is also placed in the optimum spot for uniform bass response in the room
Honestly, I was just being spiky with the sub comment. Apologies.
Is woppit still on here?
I CAN tell the difference between QED 79 strand, Naim NAC A4, Mission Solid Core and good quality mains twin and earth.
Sorry, but I can.
Under double blind conditions?
Ok for the "when is enough enough" types; let's have an example 🙂
So; taking some bog standard 1.5mm mains cable like this (at just over £1/m)
It's got a resistance of some 13.3Ohm/km
You've got (for the sake of argument) an amp that is capable of delivering 200W to the speaker; peak power. Let's say it's a worst case (in terms of cable) and that's it's output is low voltage; but high current. Say 25V.
I = P / V - so this gives a max current of 8A.
Your speaker cable is - again reasonably worst case - 10m long; because you have a massive room and like the amp by the sofa and the speaker at the opposite end of the room.
13.30 / 100 = 0.133 Ohms of resistance in your cable.
V= I * R - so your 8A * 0.133 = 1.0664V across your cable.
P = V * I - so that 1V loss * 8A equates to about 8W lost in heating up the cable; and 192W going to your speaker; so a 4% loss.
Now; 200W is ridiculously loud. So let's go with something more reasonable; maybe 50W
now you're looking at 2A of current; for a 0.25V drop across the cable and 0.5W power loss - which is ~1% loss.
So, I'd be totally happy using these for a home setup; power loss is negligible at reasonable power levels; and the 8W at 200W actually isn't terrible. The reality is an amp outputting 200W would probably have a much higher output voltage and a lower current; which would reduce losses compared to these calcs.
Over to the rest of you 😀
It's not about power loss. There are many things at work here that I'm probably not aware of but I think that the inductance and capacitance of the cable run are more significant than the impedance alone, because they will create a small tank circuit that will attenuate certain frequencies.
You’re literally arguing against science.
It always makes me laugh when people say this. You are arguing with the science that you know about. You probably aren't aware of all of the science that spans electrical engineering, material engineering, neurology and psychology, and even if you did you'd only know about the things known to those branches of science. Audiophilia isn't exactly a top priority for psychological research so there could easily be a lot going on that we don't know about (and don't start banging on about placebos whenever someone mentions psychology - we know, ok?).
I don't know how anyone who knows about science, particularly its history, can bang on the table shouting BUT SCIENCE! in these arguments. Science isn't a complete description of the universe, it's a description of what we currently know.
It's absolutely about power loss; in a "when is enough enough" discussion.
Losses / "colouring" due to frequency response are close to zero for audio frequencies in these kinds of cables.
I will forever remain sceptical that there are significant, even measurable, differences between something like the cable I posted and "audiophile" cables costing orders of magnitude more.
I too am sceptical.
The link is interesting as it clearly shows there is an effect on frequency response. He then goes onto say it's inaudible, unfortunately without a reference.
I'd like to see the same experiment repeated with other cables.
Why have you bothered ‘treating the room’ then?
You can still get strong 'early' reflections with nearfield monitors.
I used to be into all of this, I did a master's degree in acoustics, then got married, had kids..... you need space to have a decent setup.
From what I remember the most favourable concept was removing all strong early reflections from the surfaces in the room, but allowing later, more diffuse reflections. This is called a RFZ (Reflection Free Zone) room. This gave you accuracy in reproduction but the later, diffuse reflections made it more comfortable to work in and not like an anechoic chamber. It's like Live End, Dead End but better.
I had a fair idea as to what I could achieve on my budget
Good, it can definitely get out of hand!
Ideally id have him build specific helmhotlz resonators for the back and front wall
The trouble with helmholtz is they have to be built very accurately, especially if just targeting one low frequency mode. As part of my masters I looked at using a 12" speaker as a low frequency helmholtz-type absorber. It works in the lab. I built an enclosure for the loudspeaker of a certain volume to target a specific frequency. But because it's an electro-mechanical system, you can fine tune its resonance by adding a network of resistors and capacitors across the loudspeaker terminals.
molgrips
Full Member
I don’t know how anyone who knows about science, particularly its history, can bang on the table shouting BUT SCIENCE! in these arguments. Science isn’t a complete description of the universe, it’s a description of what we currently know.
Speaker cables aren't a frontier of science. 😆
Why have you bothered ‘treating the room’ then?
treating a room is fine, every room has a different acoustic signature, so that can and will have noticeable differences. You can test that for yourself, just walk in to each room in your house and speak, you'll hear your voice sounds audilbly different in each room.
And you don't need spidey senses to hear it. 😆
Speaker cables aren’t a frontier of science. 😆
Have you not heard of Prof. Brian Cox, audio cable physicist? 😆
You can test that for yourself, just walk in to each room in your house and speak, you’ll hear your voice sounds audilbly different in each room.
And you don’t need spidey senses to hear it. 😆
Oh for sure, Bathrooms typically have a very noticable echo, due to all the surfaces being hard and reflective. A typical living room with lots of soft furnishings, not so much, assuming it's not a laminate floor.
I think there's definatley a happy medium/law of dininishing returns before you start covering every available surface in cardboard egg boxes though.
@molgrips - to be fair; he says the difference is 0.17dB @ 20kHz
Given it's almost impossible to notice differences below 1dB; and 20kHz is at the upper end of most peoples perception; Whatever effect that may have I think we can agree it's going to be pretty minimal.
stevehine
1dB; and 20kHz is at the upper end of most peoples perception;
I'd be surprised if anyone on this thread hears much above 15/16khz tbh.
Personally, my 43 year old, headphone damaged ears, canny hear a sine wave above 13k. 😆
ransos
Free Member
I CAN tell the difference between QED 79 strand, Naim NAC A4, Mission Solid Core and good quality mains twin and earth.
Sorry, but I can.
Under double blind conditions?
No, but I'm willing to try. 🙂
You bring the pizza, the beer and a shedload of banana plugs. 🙃
I could hear a 20khz tone (only just about perceptible) a few years back using an audio test CD. Probably not now.
mattyfez
Free Member
You can test that for yourself, just walk in to each room in your house and speak, you’ll hear your voice sounds audilbly different in each room.And you don’t need spidey senses to hear it. 😆
Oh for sure, Bathrooms typically have a very noticable echo, due to all the surfaces being hard and reflective. A typical living room with lots of soft furnishings, not so much, assuming it’s not a laminate floor.
I think there’s definatley a happy medium/law of dininishing returns before you start covering every available surface in cardboard egg boxes though.
defo, but there is obviously perceptible differences in different rooms though, as you illustrate. So it's fair do's, how far people take it is up to them mind.
How did this get to 158 posts when the answer is "no"?
Marketing. 😆
Now; 200W is ridiculously loud
Continuous yes, for transients, no.
Re. that REL subwoofer, he's playing at it. I remember many years ago a for sale advert in Gramophone magazine (yes Grandad) for a house!! It had concrete folded horn bass bins built into the basement.
How did you find the sweet spot for the sub? I've got a similar setup, albeit with much older gear 🙂 I know sub bass is unidirectional (if that's a real word) so it doesn't have to be right in the middle. But mine is at the moment just cos it looks good and sounds ok. Just wondering how to double-check it's actually in the best position. Also do you know anything about phase when it comes to a sub. Mine has a 'phase' button on it which I've just let my ears decide what setting it should be. I suppose if it sounds right it is right.
I used to be obsessed with this stuff. I even tried to turn my hobby into a job by working in a Hi-Fi shop for a while.
I learned 2 things: A significant portion of people visiting hi-fi shops are weirdos AND there is a lot of utter bollocks spouted when your get to the "high end".
Cheap things that definitely worked for me back in the day:
Proper speaker placement: Its amazing how many people don't really bother and just whack their speakers in the corner of the room, where invariably they sound terrible.
Speaker stands: "Bookshelf" speakers always sound better on stands but you don't need to spend money on really expensive ones.
Mass loading: I had Mission 733 floorstanders with a cavity for mass-loading at the bottom, you poured in a bucket of special acoustic metal (swarf) and the increased weight made the speakers sound a bit tighter - it definitely worked but only a few speakers were designed this way. There was also a non-trivial chance you might have to explain to a Policeman why you left a bucket of shrapnel in the middle of the concourse of Glasgow Central Station.
Modest room treatment: If you have wooden floors consider a rug.
Speaker cable? I'd say that half decent cables with good quality terminations make you life a lot easier when installing hi-fi gear. By half decent I mean ~£5 a metre. As I said above a lot of places will do end of a reel off cuts really cheap.
How did you find the sweet spot for the sub? I’ve got a similar setup, albeit with much older gear 🙂 I know sub bass is unidirectional (if that’s a real word) so it doesn’t have to be right in the middle. But mine is at the moment just cos it looks good and sounds ok. Just wondering how to double-check it’s actually in the best position. Also do you know anything about phase when it comes to a sub. Mine has a ‘phase’ button on it which I’ve just let my ears decide what setting it should be. I suppose if it sounds right it is right.
If the sub was out of phase it would sound really wooly and loose. Unless the setup is really weird or the sub is really far away from the main speakers, it should be left in the default position, i.e. in phase with the + and - of the main speakers.
Setting up subs with stereo speakers is a balancing act, you obvioulsy want it to add to the punch and depth, but it's very easy to overcook it and have a very boomy/bass heavy overall sound.
Rule of thumb I use it that you shouldn't be able to tell there's a sub plugged in, it should just provide enough low end oomph to compliment the main speakers and enhance the overall sound.
special acoustic metal (swarf)
Cheap builders sand does just as good 🙂
Don't be silly. You need acoustic sand.
That’s a lovely, lovely room. And I have the same chair. (-:
I’ve got the bigger bruv Titan so I can sit xlegged, They’re really comfy.
Don’t be silly. You need acoustic sand.
Ground from diamonds by artisan diamond grinders.
jambourgie :How did you find the sweet spot for the sub?
matteyfez has phase covered - its either right, or its wrong - quite a noticeable difference, as for the sub placement its a matter of moving the sub around the room till you are happy, for example corner placement can increase the bass response - not always favourable as it can bloat/muddy the definition, and different materials in back/front/side walls can affect the sound - I have two plasterboard stud walls (front and right with a door opening) and two dot & dab plasterboard over block walls with a ruddy big window (left & back), Ideally/aesthetically id have liked to move my sub to the back left wall firing across the room to the plasterboard wall to free up space under my desk but it sounded loose and bloated in that position due to reflections and a problematic room mode. In your situation id leave the sub where it is and play a bass heavy track, move around the room and in certain places which are more likely to be corners of the room where there is freq build up you will hear a noticeable difference in bass response (or "whomp"-technical term), try moving the sub close to/but not in the corner where you feel the deepest bass and then sit back in listening position. Placement away from a wall (my sub is 45cm from front wall but even 10cm can make a difference) can help with a balanced sound and adjusting the crossover (start with it set at 80hz) is essential as is the volume you have it set at. Once you have a suitable position then ensure the sub is decoupled from the floor. What you want is to hear and feel the bass response but not to be aware its coming from the sub itself.
What speakers are you using?, what is their freq response as this will determine the sub crossover?
Theres loads of info on YouTube regarding sub placement that will explain it far better than I can.
No, but I’m willing to try. 🙂
You bring the pizza, the beer and a shedload of banana plugs. 🙃
Sure. You can pay the fine 😉
Seriously though, isn't there a million quid on offer if you can manage it? Why haven't you signed up?
I’d be surprised if anyone on this thread hears much above 15/16khz tbh.
i can *just* hear 17..
http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2009/03/can-you-hear-this-hearing-test/
edit : oh thats wierd, I can hear 19 but not 18.. maybe their test is messed up
I can't here 14 🙁
i can *just* hear 17..
http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2009/03/can-you-hear-this-hearing-test/
edit : oh thats wierd, I can hear 19 but not 18.. maybe their test is messed up
Think it might be, I heard some weirdness on the 20khz one.
Try this, just youtube, but the sweep is good for identifying where dips are etc. I can't hear above 13, but interestingly there's weirdness that happens from 2-8khz for me, not deafness, but noticeable dips and crests around there Showing that I've not got accurate hearing there anyhow.
Volume makes a difference too. be careful with that, cause it can go right through you, start low! 😆
obviously, speaker/headphones, will affect this, but it'll give ye a fair indication and starting point if you want to investigate further.
age is a massive actor, if you are hearing high, I'm gonny say you're on the yonnger side of life! 😆
ps I'm fine with my 13k limit. there ain't much music happen above that anyhow! 😆
pps, should I will be able to hear above that, as music isn't pure sine waves
While being sat comfortably is crucially important, monitoring using a chair with a big headrest type design is going to really affect what you are hearing.
nice tidy setup BTW 🙂
and there is plenty happening in music above 13khz
Some, but the vast majority of it is below that. 😆
pick a song, any song, and I'll stick a 10k filter on it, and we'll see how much music there is happening above there. 😆
Thanks for the phase explanation. I think I've overthought this and didn't realise it was as simple as that.
Cheers for the tips. I might've got lucky and it's already in a decent position. Certainly not experiencing any specific issues. But always eager to improve things if possible which I'm sure you understand. Yes, there is a really heavy bass area, on the other side of the room near an open door. Never thought to move the sub over there... As it is, it is decoupled from the floor, placed on a paving slab which in turn is placed on four halves of tennis balls. But it is pushed back against the wall, well, a radiator, prob ten mm gap so I can reach the cutoff/volume controls on the back. Think I've got it set somewhere in the region of 70-90hz. Hard to tell from the front, just adjusting by ear. The room doesn't seem too bad as it's carpeted with a big old sofa etc. Monitors are Yamaha NS10M Studio. Proper ramshackle old setup.
Will watch that sub setup video now, cheers!
but interestingly there’s weirdness that happens from 2-8khz for me, not deafness, but noticeable dips and crests around there
thats your speaker cables for sure.
pick a song, any song, and I’ll stick a 10k filter on it, and we’ll see how much music there is happening above there.
You don't hear frequencies in isolation.
The youtube sweep thing is amazing. I start hearing super high tinnitis whistle as soon as it gets to about 200Hz (that doesn't go away when I pause the vid!), then about 600Hz I start hearing another higher but constant 1200Hz ish tone as the main tone catches up to it. Then all sorts of strange high pitched noises up to about 11kHz where it goes quiet. With noise cancelling off, a different set of effects.
