[Closed] Does Nick Griffin have a point? Yes, that Nick Griffin...

[i]people have used the bible to justify both apartheid in South Africa and slavery in the US[/i]

Both of which are very similar to the BnB story. 🙂

Ah, i see you're doing yourt usual 'this discussion's a bit too intellectual for me to get to grips with, so i'll just make stupid provocative statements my mates down the pub might find amusing' trick. Forgive me for taking you seriously, I shall endaevour not to do so in future. Enjoy your inebriation.

Mike, FFS! Its Friday afternoon. Wind your neck in, and for god (or Allah's) sake, you really do need to get your sense of humour bypass filter fixed mate. You've just taken seriously a statement that gay blokes in leather chaps need to start blowing themselves up more often, like a cross between the shoe bomber and Freddie Mercury?

And as for resorting to comments like that, my first contribution was to suggest that 'A Tyranny of Bumming' would make a great name for a Japanese Death Metal Band.

Lighten up the moral outrage eh? Your head'll explode otherwise 😉

You can't prevent bigotry because that is a state of mind, and, at the moment at least, we have no government authorised mind control.

We do actually. It's called 'hate crime' and it allows for offences that are racially or otherwise aggravated to be given differential sentences.

Also, inciting racial hatred is a crime. If I stand up and preach hatred and intolerance against Muslisms, I could be arrested and prosecuted for it.

Yes but neither of those are bigotry, they are actions motivated by bigotry. You still can't be prosecuted for thinking something about someone, only for acting upon those thoughts. Anyway, this moves away from my real point, which was:

Discrimination is illegal and the law does apply equally to all groups! If I ran a B&B and refused to allow Christians I could be prosecuted, just as the Christian couple who refused to allow homosexuals were.

[i]stupid provocative statements my mates down the pub might find amusing[/i] keep me here.

binners is the only reason this forum still exists.

MEDICAL FACT.

Both of which are very similar to the BnB story.

Have you not heard of pastor martin niemoller? Thin end of the wedge innit? 🙂

Mike, FFS! Its Friday afternoon. Wind your neck in, and for god (or Allah's) sake, you really do need to get your sense of humour bypass filter fixed mate. You've just taken seriously a statement that gay blokes in leather chaps need to start blowing themselves up more often, like a cross between the shoe bomber and Freddie Mercury?

Why should I 'wind my neck in'? My sense of humour's just fine, 'mate'. You made an idiotic statement, i challenged it, and now you're a bit miffed. Go and have another pint or 8, mate.

Oh, i'm sorry; of course, you were only joking, weren't you? Oh well that makes it alright then doesn't it? Maybe you're just not very good at making yourself clear. Must be all that beer you drink; i must admit I get a bit incoherent after a few too. Perhaps you might want to rethink the possibility of a career as a comedian, as Bernard Manning's dead and that type of thing doesn't go down too well these days. Mind you, I see Jim Davidson's still about. He could do with a bit of competition.

Can't see that you've made any real intelligent contribution to this thread other than to attempt a few 'look at me' type actions. Yes dear, very clever. Run along now will you; grown ups talking. there's a good boy.

You can't prevent bigotry because that is a state of mind

A state of mind can be changed through education, information and showing how ignorance is wrong. So you can actually prevent bigotry in all but the most closed-minded idiots. Or drunken alcoholics.

mikeconnor Just 'cos he dresses his contribution up like a clown with a bucket of paint on it's head doesn't mean he's not making a valid point that others understand and, perhaps, see some value in.

You're not really getting this are you Michael. Just to illustrate...

a suicide bomber

[img] [/img]

a gayer....

[img] [/img]

In the name of equality, I'm cross-breeding the 2 to produce a race of militant, equality-driven men who like to touch other mens bottoms. Its for the good of society in the end. Just imagine how much semtex you can get underneath a velvet cape and a crown

wwaswas; I notice Binners is an ever-present regular on here, night and day 24-7. It must get a bit boring for him, as he's surely run out of ideas by now. Hence the 'hey lads look what a terribly funny guy I am'. reminds me of a certain fast show character.

[img] [/img]

Forgive me for not being taken in by his schtick; I just find the guy rather tedious and a tad blinkred. Maybe he should get out a bit more rather than spending his every waking hour on an internet forum.

you're entitled to your opinion mike.

thankfully, it's not your forum.

I'm sure he's been for a mince with hora at least once so he isn't *always* on here.

All I can say is, it's good to see that his latest incarnation has dropped that pathetic faux-Cockney spelling schtick.

OK, he's still tiresome and boring, but we should be grateful for small mercies and all that.

All I can say is, it's good to see that his latest incarnation has dropped that pathetic faux-Cockney spelling schtick.

I thought he was from Manchester, no?

Binners is that Kevin from coronation street? Why's he dressed like that?
I never know he suicide bombed? Is he not in it (corrie) any more?

I'm only ever on here in working hours Mike. Out on the bike last night. And all day tomorrow. Do you actually ride yourself? Apart from your monthly 'celebrations, we all know all about

Ok Mike. Heres the deal. Shall we divide the threads up like they do in Fight club.....

[img] [/img]

I get to be Tyler obviously. Which [s]self-help groups[/s] threads do you want? In fact.... If you could write me a list of stuff I'm not entitled to an opinion on, that'd be great

I believe you'd made a start on this already. Fire away.....

[i]You all think it's perfectly OK to marginalise Christian in about as derisory way as those Christians marginalise homosexuals.[/i]
bencooper: Show me one person who's born a Christian, and I'll concede your point.

So bencooper,

You think people are born gay? It's genetic? There is a Gay gene? have you published these findings?

[i]You think people are born gay? It's genetic? There is a Gay gene? have you published these findings? [/i]

*not sure if serious*

I thought he was from Manchester, no?

Who said I was talking about binners?

I am serious. Are there folks who really believe that people are born gay?

[i]Are there folks who really believe that people are born gay? [/i]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

See, a simple yes or no would allow some engagement and discussion. If you would rather avoid that, then carry on posting those kinds of responses

I really just don't know how to respond.

I guess the short answer is that a all of the gay people I've known who I've had this type of discussion with believe they were born gay. Who am I to argue?

Right, so what what do you think is the mechanism of that? Do you think it is genetic?

Who am I to argue?

I was hoping, a reasonable rationale, research-informed person who is capable of making up their own mind and not just taking someone else's post-hoc rationalisations.

binners; since I joined this forum, you've done little but make crass and provocative comments towards me. Are you one of the 'big hitters', who everyone has to look up to? This forum' syour 'manor' and evertyone has to respect you?

sorry, but I don't see how your earlier comments about 'explody' Muslims are at all funny. And I suspect you'd not make them so readily if you were in fact in a place where there are lots of Muslim people. So I don't see as how you should go unchalleneged for making them on here. if you don't want to be challenged, then don't make ignorant statements.

Now, how about attempting to justify your comment from earlier:

You can't discriminate against Muslims. They get a bit,... you know... a bit... explody!

So, is that all Muslims then? It's just that all the ons iknow and work with are pretty amicable peaceful folk who like a good laugh. Hence why Sun reader style comments like yours aren't actually 'funny' to me. Or to a group of people who\'ve had to endure mistrust, hate and ostracisation since the west decided Islam was the new Communism. Do you actually know any Muslims yourself? i don't imagine you meet an awful lot in that pub you spend so much time in (when you're not on here of course. which, i wouldn't imagine, leaves much time for biking).

Speaking of pubs; it's home time. Once again, have a nice weekend mate.

I am serious. Are there folks who really believe that people are born gay?

Yep. Definitely home time. have a good one folks!

See, a simple yes or no would allow some engagement and discussion.

Do you think that there's a choice?
I mean, do you believe that you could give sex to a man? (I'm assuming you're male)

[i]Do you think it is genetic? [/i]

Unless they're indoctrinated in the womb by a mother with an agenda one must assume it is, yes?

The nature/nurture debate is very interesting, on many levels, but perhaps not so relevant to this debate. I know people have asked about "being born Christian", which does imply that they do believe you can be "born gay", but, whether nature or nurture, or both, are responsible for sexuality is rather irrelevant. The point is, it's not a choice, or an opinion. People can, and regularly do, change their mind on religion, but I'm not aware that anyone has changed their mind on whether to be gay or not.

Even that though is fairly irrelevant to the debate, since you cannot legally discriminate against people for either their religion or their sexuality, they are treated the same in law.

Unless they're indoctrinated in the womb by a mother with an agenda one must assume it is, yes?

Then you would expect that there would clearly be lots of identical twins who would share the same sexuality, right?

The nature/nurture debate is very interesting, on many levels, but perhaps not so relevant to this debate.

Well, if one line of argument is 'Show me someone who was born Christian' then it is relevant

Maybe one of them is pretending to be heterosexual?

People can, and regularly do, change their mind on religion, but I'm not aware that anyone has changed their mind on whether to be gay or not.

Why do you see it as a polarisation rather than a continuum? People may become more or less gay over time. Have you never 'experimented'?

Maybe one of them is pretending to be heterosexual?

Is that the extent of your argument?

binners; since I joined this forum, you've done little but make crass and provocative comments towards me.

I try to resist Mike. Honestly I do. But nature abhors a vacuum 😉

Are you one of the 'big hitters', who everyone has to look up to? This forum' syour 'manor' and evertyone has to respect you?

*shudders* Jesus! If anyone [i]respected[/i] me, I'd be off like a shot, never to return. Why would anyone respect someone who spouts constant flippant shite? 😆

Anyway... have a good weekend. Pity I couldn't join you in the pub. You sound like an absolute barrel of laughs.

[i]People may become more or less gay over time[/i]

Is there a 'gayness' scale that you work from?

Quentin Crisp at one end and chuck norris aty the other?

[i]Is that the extent of your argument? [/i]

well all you've done was ask a question. At least I've answered one...

Well, if one line of argument is 'Show me someone who was born Christian' then it is relevant

I did suggest that that argument was not relevant either.

So on a scale of 1-10 how gay are you?

Can I just ask if anyone has seen that Cameron chap in the same room as Mr Griffin?

Is there a 'gayness' scale that you work from?

Not Specifically but if you think such a thing is necessary for you construction of 'gay' then you might use the Kinsey scale or any elaboration of it since 1948, if you prefer, you could use the Klein Grid which has more dimensions.

Does the specific scale I work from, have any bearing on your argument?

Is that the extent of your argument?

well all you've done was ask a question. At least I've answered one...

Ok, then so you are telling me that gayness is genetic, and where it appears that identical twins are of different sexual orientation, it is only because one of them is pretending?

Quentin Crisp at one end and chuck norris aty the other?

that only works if the line that your sliding scale is on is a circle

So on a scale of 1-10 how gay are you?

That is a rather private matter for me, but if you would like to know yourself. This is an easy entrance...
http://www.okcupid.com/quizzy/take

Do people who are religious have a scale of how Christian they are. Isn't it kind if an 'either you are or you aren't thing' ?

Do people who are religious have a scale of how Christian they are. Isn't it kind if an 'either you are or you aren't thing' ?

I think they do, I'm sure peopel say things like "I'm not very religious" or "she's very religious" or "I'm not at all religious"

But, it would be nice if you answered my earlier questions

Are there folks who really believe that people are born gay?

I don't know as "born" is the correct word. You're born asexual, in so far as pre-pubescents aren't particularly straight / gay / bi etc. But when sexuality asserts itself during puberty, we have no control over that; some people are attracted to same-sex partners in the same way that some may be attracted to blondes, goths or antelopes. It's not a choice, it's a reaction, you can't help it any more than you can help getting a stiffy watching Nigella making whipped cream.

Whether that's genetic or not, I don't know, not really my field. It would appear so, no?

wwaswas - Member

Do people who are religious have a scale of how Christian they are

Maybe not consciously, but there definately are degrees of religion- people observe their faith to various degrees.

'I'm a bit gay but I didn't swallow so it doesn't count?'

Re your earlier question: I have no idea. I cant imagine ever wanting to have sex with a man so assume I'm genetically hetero. I'm perfectly willing to believe people I meet who make the same assumption about their gayness.

Re your earlier question: I have no idea.

Ah, sorry. I thought you were arguing from and informed position, not just guessing. Ok, that should make your views easier to understand. Thanks this clears things up a bit

'I'm a bit gay but I didn't swallow so it doesn't count?'

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but to be honest I think it might be a bit reductive and offensive

Once again...

Does the specific scale I work from, have any bearing on your argument?

I've lost track of what my argument was, tbh, and I have to get my daughter to Guides so I'll leave you calibrating your gaydar and say cheerio.

My right leg is as gay as a hayrick full of hares on a humid day in may.. whereas most of the rest of my body is hetrosexual with a fragrant scent of peach blossom.. my appendix however is very very bisexual, no matter which scale you use to measure it..
Even with such a glistening rainbow of sexual diversity going on I still choose above all, to be a merchant banker..

You think people are born gay? It's genetic? There is a Gay gene? have you published these findings?

Sexuality is complicated - maybe it's got a genetic element to it, maybe not. What is pretty certain is that it's not a matter of choice. Whereas religion is.

I've lost track of what my argument was, tbh, and I have to get my daughter to Guides so I'll leave you calibrating your gaydar and say cheerio.

I thought so. After starting out defending the gay rights, you end with a little joke about cocksucking gays and some stereotypical generalisation about 'gaydar'. Well, thanks for your support.

Sexuality is complicated - maybe it's got a genetic element to it, maybe not. What is pretty certain is that it's not a matter of choice. Whereas religion is.

But that ignores all the social, cultural and environmental influences, amongst others, which make people either grow up religious or turn religious. It's not as though anyone one day says "i'm going to start believing in God today'"

I just said that 🙂

Thing is for all those who dont discriminate and say being gay is ok and perfectly normal,just ask yourselves, would you let a gay Dr or male nurse examine your genitals,at the local surgery, or give you a full body shave, prior to an operation in hospital,or getting changed in front of a load of gay men in a changing room at a sports centre etc.

If you refuse, perhaps now is the time to ask your wife or girlfreind how she feels about a lesbian nurse or Gp giving her a cervical smear test, women just see it as part of a medical investigation.

Discrimination is still engrained in a lot of peoples minds they just decide when to shout theyre not discriminateing while keeping quiet about personnel matters.

Also noticed there are not many openly gay cyclists willing to comment on the above posts, tells you a lot about discrimination in the cycling fraternity.

would you let a gay Dr or male nurse examine your genitals,at the local surgery, or give you a full body shave, prior to an operation in hospital,or getting changed in front of a load of gay men in a changing room at a sports centre etc.

is that really an issue in this day and age..!?

I do martial arts with a (very) gay man. I don't feel threatened at all. Besides, I don't think he fancies me.

But that ignores all the social, cultural and environmental influences, amongst others, which make people either grow up religious or turn religious. It's not as though anyone one day says "i'm going to start believing in God today'"

Isn't that called being "born again"? Though often an ingestion of a large quantity of drugs seems to be required.

It's still a choice. It might be a choice under duress, but they're adults in a western democracy, and they're choosing to be offended.

My hair, what's left of it is definitely bisexual.
Sometimes it's straight, sometimes not.

or getting changed in front of a load of gay men in a changing room at a sports centre etc.

especially since Gay men report, having slightly longer and thicker penises than non-gay men.

Bogaert AF, Hershberger S (1999). "The relation between sexual orientation and penile size". Arch Sex Behav 28 (3): 213–21.

Isn't that called being "born again"? Though often an ingestion of a large quantity of drugs seems to be required.

It's still a choice. It might be a choice under duress,

Not really, I don't think they could choose not to change their beliefs, that's the nature of belief isn't it?

So no-one stops believing in god?

So no-one stops believing in god?

they do, but not by choice. Their beliefs change, and that's not by choice either

[quote=project ]Thing is for all those who dont discriminate and say being gay is ok and perfectly normal,just ask yourselves, would you let a gay Dr or male nurse examine your genitals,at the local surgery, or give you a full body shave, prior to an operation in hospital,or getting changed in front of a load of gay men in a changing room at a sports centre etc.
How would I even be aware of a doctors sexuality? Is it that they'd all be wearing pink shirts or something?

Their beliefs change, and that's not by choice either

So any time someone changes their mind about something, that's not their choice? When I changed my mind about what I had for breakfast, that was a change of mental state that was outside my control? Or is it only changes of mind about religious matters that are outside our control?

Thing is for all those who dont discriminate and say being gay is ok and perfectly normal,just ask yourselves, would you let a gay Dr or male nurse examine your genitals,at the local surgery, or give you a full body shave, prior to an operation in hospital,or getting changed in front of a load of gay men in a changing room at a sports centre etc.

Yes, the same way as I'd allow a woman to do it. I'm reasonably sure that both would be able to retain a level of professionalism rather than being driven wild with uncontrollable desire or accidentally slip and fall on my cock.

This might come as a shock, but just because someone is gay doesn't automatically mean they fancy you.

they do, but not by choice.

People who stop believing in god don't do it by choice? Wut? Care to expand on that?

So any time someone changes their mind about something, that's not their choice? When I changed my mind about what I had for breakfast, that was a change of mental state that was outside my control? Or is it only changes of mind about religious matters that are outside our control?

No, it's change of beliefs which are outside our control.

People who stop believing in god don't do it by choice? Wut? Care to expand on that?

Well, their beliefs change. this is not a choice, it's based on a changing different interpretation of the world around them.

woah, there really is a God Gene!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene

Well, their beliefs change. this is not a choice, it's based on a changing different interpretation of the world around them.

So how we interpret the world around us is not a conscious decision? How do you explain, well, all experimental science then?

Or are you saying that people who believe something irrational (religion) can make an irrational decision to stop being religious?

Having googled 'The Christian Institute' after reading that this particular organisation had supported the B&B owner in her case..

The Christian Institute exists for “the furtherance and promotion of the Christian religion in the United Kingdom” and “the advancement of education”.

The Christian Institute is a nondenominational Christian charity committed to upholding the truths of the Bible. We are supported by individuals and churches throughout the UK.

We believe that the Bible is the supreme authority for all of life and we hold to the inerrancy of Scripture. We are committed to upholding the sanctity of life from conception"

So, basically they believe their religion has a higher authority than the UK legal system and therefore they are justified in ignoring the laws they don't agree with.

The verdict must have come as a bit of a shock then 😆

So how we interpret the world around us is not a conscious decision? How do you explain, well, all experimental science then?

I'm not sure why that is a contradiction. You believe the results of experimental science, because of the way you construct knowledge. There is no 'choice' involved. Take any belief you have, be it in social equality, racial equality, political view and see if you can choose to believe the opposite of your current belief. I reckon you can espouse the views of the other side, but deep within you, your belief will not have changed.

Or are you saying that people who believe something irrational (religion) can make an irrational decision to stop being religious?

No

The thing that I would agree with Nick is that if people want to be bigoted as part of their business, then let them be bigoted, i would suggest that they are then required to advertise their bigotry, and let the market determine if their business succeeds or fails.

If for example we advertised that we didnt want female customers we would only get customers who followed our beliefs, we would probably go out of business, but people would know of our views.

So really there's no point in arguing with anyone, as you'll never change their mind? 🙂

That is a rather private matter for me

project - Member
Thing is for all those who dont discriminate and say being gay is ok and perfectly normal,just ask yourselves, would you let a gay Dr or male nurse examine your genitals,at the local surgery, or give you a full body shave, prior to an operation in hospital,or getting changed in front of a load of gay men in a changing room at a sports centre etc.

If you refuse, perhaps now is the time to ask your wife or girlfreind how she feels about a lesbian nurse or Gp giving her a cervical smear test, women just see it as part of a medical investigation.

How would you know the sexual orientation of any of these people?

There is no 'choice' involved. Take any belief you have, be it in social equality, racial equality, political view and see if you can choose to believe the opposite of your current belief. I reckon you can espouse the views of the other side, but deep within you, your belief will not have changed.

So what you're saying is that when you "choose" to believe something, you actually haven't had a choice at all, you just think you have? Sorry, just trying to clear up what you're saying...?

I reckon you can espouse the views of the other side, but deep within you, your belief will not have changed.

Back to the scale.
I presume there's scales for all sorts of things, theres not many facets of being human that are binary not even gender, i'm thinking OCDishness and similar. is there a threshold level where you are labelled, if there is does it really matter, or even help to be labelled? surely it's how you decide for yourself that matters?

project - Member

Thing is for all those who dont discriminate and say being gay is ok and perfectly normal,just ask yourselves, would you let a gay Dr or male nurse examine your genitals,at the local surgery, or give you a full body shave, prior to an operation in hospital,or getting changed in front of a load of gay men in a changing room at a sports centre etc.

Yes, of course. And you're getting a genuine WTF for this one.

For the former two... They're professionals, as long as they're doing their job properly then what is the problem? One of the team who did my surgery was gay and one of them was a woman and they all got a good look at my oh so buff bod (inside and out!) I don't think they were either put off or massively aroused tbh. But you never know, that was quite a strong anaesthetic.

For the latter... If you've got changed in communal changing any number of times, then most likely you've done so in the company of a gay man. Probably best work out some way to deal with that.