[Closed] Does Nick Griffin have a point? Yes, that Nick Griffin...

I feel very much at odds with most of the arguments on here which is odd because I've spent a large part of my adult life standing up for equality and for the rights of all groups, in particular the gay community.

So please know that I do not like the idea of the argument I am putting forward.

I do not think it is a good thing, I think it is necessary because I think that religious groups, in particular Christians, are being marginalised.

I am 'against' the idea of religion and I share the view that it is almost certainly a 'temporary insanity' as Aurthur C Clarke put it.

But I also recognise that if you're going to identify groups within society that must be protected from bigotry then that protection must be applied to all groups, for as long as it does cause conflict with other groups.

You need exceptions to protect people during a transition. In 20 years time, everyone will know that if you're going to make the free choice to set up a B&B, then you better be prepared to allow access to people of all sexual persuasions.

Exceptions should protect those caught in that transition period and only those.

What, all of them? Or just a tiny minority the gutter press crap you obviously read sensationalises as being representative of all Muslims?

Did you think that up all by yourself in that pub? Or did you have help?

Michael. Its a simple statement of fact that if the gayers started getting militant, and donning suicide vests along with their leather chaps, then far less people would be discriminating against them.

In fact, its an even more effective tactic. Seriously ...would you want someone with a suicide-belts detonator switch in their sweaty palm, while off their head on GBH and poppers?

I rest my case

What is the arbitrary ethical line that would allow the former and disallow the latter

How about common sense? Just like you would get a different sentence to reflect different crimes. We can therefore agree that not all crimes are equally as bad and the law is not black and white; there are shades of grey.

I do not think it is a good thing, I think it is necessary because I think that religious groups, in particular Christians, are being marginalised.

Again, that's the same word trick that often gets played.

Religious groups are not being marginalised, they're having their special privileges removed so they are equal to everyone else.

I do not think it is a good thing, I think it is necessary because I think that religious groups, in particular Christians, are being marginalised.

No they are not, they are just having to comply with the laws of the land like everyone else. They should be offered no exemption based on religous belief.

Exceptions should protect those caught in that transition period and only those.

And when is that transition period deemed over?

the law is not black and white; there are shades of grey.

How many shades of grey? And is that kind of thing allowed in a B&B?

You need exceptions to protect people during a transition. In 20 years time, everyone will know that if you're going to make the free choice to set up a B&B, then you better be prepared to allow access to people of all sexual persuasions.

You need exceptions to protect people during a transition. In 20 years time, everyone will know that if you're going to make the free choice to set up a B&B, then you better be prepared to allow access to people of all sexual persuasions.

What about someone who's half rice/half chips, and is having an indecisive weekend, so brings both?

But I also recognise that if you're going to identify groups within society that must be protected from bigotry then that protection must be applied to all groups, for as long as it does cause conflict with other groups.

You can't prevent bigotry because that is a state of mind, and, at the moment at least, we have no government authorised mind control. Discrimination is illegal and the law does apply equally to all groups! If I ran a B&B and refused to allow Christians I could be prosecuted, just as the Christian couple who refused to allow homosexuals were.

How many shades of grey?

about 50. You minx.

I do not think it is a good thing, I think it is necessary because I think that religious groups, in particular Christians, are being marginalised.

But this isn't about marginalising Christians. It is about marginalising bigots.

The fact that these bigots happen to be Christian is entirely irrelevant.
Or at least it should be.

What exactly do you mean by "marginalised" here, GT?

How about common sense? Just like you would get a different sentence to reflect different crimes. We can therefore agree that not all crimes are equally as bad and the law is not black and white; there are shades of grey.

Common sense? How the **** is it common sense if you have no ethical or rational argument to treat religion differently in the eyes of the law to everyone else.

You are marginalizing me, as an atheist.

You can't prevent bigotry because that is a state of mind, and, at the moment at least, we have no government authorised mind control.

We do actually. It's called 'hate crime' and it allows for offences that are racially or otherwise aggravated to be given differential sentences.

Also, inciting racial hatred is a crime. If I stand up and preach hatred and intolerance against Muslisms, I could be arrested and prosecuted for it.

Its a simple statement of fact that if the gayers started getting militant, and donning suicide vests along with their leather chaps, then far less people would be discriminating against them.

Ah, i see you're doing yourt usual 'this discussion's a bit too intellectual for me to get to grips with, so i'll just make stupid provocative statements my mates down the pub might find amusing' trick. Forgive me for taking you seriously, I shall endaevour not to do so in future. Enjoy your inebriation.

It was only in the 80's footy fans were chucking bananas on the pitch.30 years on and we're horrified by the behaviour of the serbs. If it's approached too softly, people won't take it seriously.

Exactly. Nothing to do with 'ultra-liberalism' or any other such crap.

What was that saying – Love the sinner but hate the sin? I personally have no problem with people taking up any religion, whether it’s worshipping the Abrahamic god in any of its flavours, following the Ancient Norse, Greek or Hindi pantheons, Buddhism or Pastafarianism – ‘tis all the same to me. However, if they commit discriminatory, violent or otherwise illegal acts, even if it’s in the name of their religion, they’re fair game for prosecution and a good old fashioned shunning.

As much as people like to justify their homophobic/racist/misogynist beliefs as being dedicated to god – you can’t quote the Bible, the Qu’ran or the Torah as back up, because they’re a mish mash of largely contradictory nonsense. Thou shalt not kill, unless they’re a witch, worked on the Sabbath, have committed adultery - in which case, crack right on my lovely. Live in harmony with Christians and Jewish people, because they’re people of the Book, apart from when we’ve changed our mind and decided they should convert or die.

Religion changes with the times and eventually jettisons the elements that become socially unacceptable – when was the last time you saw even the most devout of Christian women popping down to the Church to burn a couple of pigeons to be cleansed of her period? Or a Christian bloke doing the same because he became unclean by talking to the menstruating woman? Should we allow Christians to keep slaves, as long as they’re from a neighbouring nation? Or allow those of faith to put to death those pesky people who keep on insisting on working on the Sabbath?

Common sense? How the **** is it common sense if you have no ethical or rational argument to treat religion with positive discriminatory practices?

Not sure what you mean here?

We do actually. It's called 'hate crime' and it allows for offences that are racially or otherwise aggravated to be given differential sentences.

Hang on everyone, turns out we're massively over-reacting

"The couple at the bed and breakfast made it clear that they didn't want unmarried couples at all sharing a bed in their room"

So, turned away for not being married, nothing to do with being gay ...

😉

Also, inciting [b]racial[/b] hatred is a crime. If I stand up and preach hatred and intolerance against [b]Muslisms[/b], I could be arrested and prosecuted for it.

You sure about that?

I was under the impression that Muslim was not a race, it was a religion - therefore you could only be arrested if you used actually Threatening words to stir up religious hatred, stirring up hatred by being abusive or insulting about Moslems would not be enough, you have to actually threaten.

Edit:

So, turned away for not being married, nothing to do with being gay ...

Good point! 😈

when was the last time you saw even the most devout of Christian women popping down to the Church to burn a couple of pigeons to be cleansed of her period?

Interesting. I'll mention this to my girlfriend, although perhaps not when she's a bit pre-menstrual.

Or allow those of faith to put to death those pesky people who keep on insisting on working on the Sabbath?

Ah, I suspect I'll be yet again called upon to act as a Shabbos Goy tomorrow. Probably be needed to press a doorbell or something. I doubt i'll be put to death though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbos_goy

So, turned away for not being [b]married[/b], nothing to do with being gay ...

Cougar - Member
What exactly do you mean by "marginalised" here, GT?

Interested too. What with it being the state religion and all. And having representation in our legislature.

A few other points; people have said if it's OK to discriminate against the gay couple would it be OK to do so against blacks for example.

No it wouldn't but no one is claiming the right to do that on religious grounds. Being gay appears to be at odds with the Christian faith; being black isn't.

Historically people have used the bible to justify both apartheid in South Africa and slavery in the US.

Historically people have used the bible to justify both apartheid in South Africa and slavery in the US.

I get your point about not picking up on every little thing geetee lest it be used against liberalism but a couple of guys went on holiday and were discriminated against and (rightly if they so wish) kicked up a fuss. If you tell them to stop making a fuss and leave the poor marginalised christians alone you let stupidity/bigotry "win" and they will continue to act in that way and send out a very bad message that it's ok to do this and gay people should put up with it.

[i]people have used the bible to justify both apartheid in South Africa and slavery in the US[/i]

Both of which are very similar to the BnB story. 🙂

Ah, i see you're doing yourt usual 'this discussion's a bit too intellectual for me to get to grips with, so i'll just make stupid provocative statements my mates down the pub might find amusing' trick. Forgive me for taking you seriously, I shall endaevour not to do so in future. Enjoy your inebriation.

Mike, FFS! Its Friday afternoon. Wind your neck in, and for god (or Allah's) sake, you really do need to get your sense of humour bypass filter fixed mate. You've just taken seriously a statement that gay blokes in leather chaps need to start blowing themselves up more often, like a cross between the shoe bomber and Freddie Mercury?

And as for resorting to comments like that, my first contribution was to suggest that 'A Tyranny of Bumming' would make a great name for a Japanese Death Metal Band.

Lighten up the moral outrage eh? Your head'll explode otherwise 😉

You can't prevent bigotry because that is a state of mind, and, at the moment at least, we have no government authorised mind control.

We do actually. It's called 'hate crime' and it allows for offences that are racially or otherwise aggravated to be given differential sentences.

Also, inciting racial hatred is a crime. If I stand up and preach hatred and intolerance against Muslisms, I could be arrested and prosecuted for it.

Yes but neither of those are bigotry, they are actions motivated by bigotry. You still can't be prosecuted for thinking something about someone, only for acting upon those thoughts. Anyway, this moves away from my real point, which was:

Discrimination is illegal and the law does apply equally to all groups! If I ran a B&B and refused to allow Christians I could be prosecuted, just as the Christian couple who refused to allow homosexuals were.

[i]stupid provocative statements my mates down the pub might find amusing[/i] keep me here.

binners is the only reason this forum still exists.

MEDICAL FACT.

Both of which are very similar to the BnB story.

Have you not heard of pastor martin niemoller? Thin end of the wedge innit? 🙂

Mike, FFS! Its Friday afternoon. Wind your neck in, and for god (or Allah's) sake, you really do need to get your sense of humour bypass filter fixed mate. You've just taken seriously a statement that gay blokes in leather chaps need to start blowing themselves up more often, like a cross between the shoe bomber and Freddie Mercury?

Why should I 'wind my neck in'? My sense of humour's just fine, 'mate'. You made an idiotic statement, i challenged it, and now you're a bit miffed. Go and have another pint or 8, mate.

Oh, i'm sorry; of course, you were only joking, weren't you? Oh well that makes it alright then doesn't it? Maybe you're just not very good at making yourself clear. Must be all that beer you drink; i must admit I get a bit incoherent after a few too. Perhaps you might want to rethink the possibility of a career as a comedian, as Bernard Manning's dead and that type of thing doesn't go down too well these days. Mind you, I see Jim Davidson's still about. He could do with a bit of competition.

Can't see that you've made any real intelligent contribution to this thread other than to attempt a few 'look at me' type actions. Yes dear, very clever. Run along now will you; grown ups talking. there's a good boy.

You can't prevent bigotry because that is a state of mind

A state of mind can be changed through education, information and showing how ignorance is wrong. So you can actually prevent bigotry in all but the most closed-minded idiots. Or drunken alcoholics.

mikeconnor Just 'cos he dresses his contribution up like a clown with a bucket of paint on it's head doesn't mean he's not making a valid point that others understand and, perhaps, see some value in.

You're not really getting this are you Michael. Just to illustrate...

a suicide bomber

[img] [/img]

a gayer....

[img] [/img]

In the name of equality, I'm cross-breeding the 2 to produce a race of militant, equality-driven men who like to touch other mens bottoms. Its for the good of society in the end. Just imagine how much semtex you can get underneath a velvet cape and a crown

wwaswas; I notice Binners is an ever-present regular on here, night and day 24-7. It must get a bit boring for him, as he's surely run out of ideas by now. Hence the 'hey lads look what a terribly funny guy I am'. reminds me of a certain fast show character.

[img] [/img]

Forgive me for not being taken in by his schtick; I just find the guy rather tedious and a tad blinkred. Maybe he should get out a bit more rather than spending his every waking hour on an internet forum.

you're entitled to your opinion mike.

thankfully, it's not your forum.

I'm sure he's been for a mince with hora at least once so he isn't *always* on here.

All I can say is, it's good to see that his latest incarnation has dropped that pathetic faux-Cockney spelling schtick.

OK, he's still tiresome and boring, but we should be grateful for small mercies and all that.

All I can say is, it's good to see that his latest incarnation has dropped that pathetic faux-Cockney spelling schtick.

I thought he was from Manchester, no?

Binners is that Kevin from coronation street? Why's he dressed like that?
I never know he suicide bombed? Is he not in it (corrie) any more?

I'm only ever on here in working hours Mike. Out on the bike last night. And all day tomorrow. Do you actually ride yourself? Apart from your monthly 'celebrations, we all know all about

Ok Mike. Heres the deal. Shall we divide the threads up like they do in Fight club.....

[img] [/img]

I get to be Tyler obviously. Which [s]self-help groups[/s] threads do you want? In fact.... If you could write me a list of stuff I'm not entitled to an opinion on, that'd be great

I believe you'd made a start on this already. Fire away.....

[i]You all think it's perfectly OK to marginalise Christian in about as derisory way as those Christians marginalise homosexuals.[/i]
bencooper: Show me one person who's born a Christian, and I'll concede your point.

So bencooper,

You think people are born gay? It's genetic? There is a Gay gene? have you published these findings?

[i]You think people are born gay? It's genetic? There is a Gay gene? have you published these findings? [/i]

*not sure if serious*

I thought he was from Manchester, no?

Who said I was talking about binners?

I am serious. Are there folks who really believe that people are born gay?

[i]Are there folks who really believe that people are born gay? [/i]

[img] [/img]