MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
It was announced last week that our company is considering making redundancies. It's a newish company (been around five or six years, I've been here for three), I joined to do tech support, as have most of the support team, but our focus has switched almost exclusively to making outbound calls to sell the product. There is (imho) an utterly unreasonable weight of expectation from one of the directors that we should be getting better useage of the product from our calls, but as none of us have any sales experience (including the director), I don't know where this expectation comes from. As it happens, the very week of the announcement saw the biggest ever use of the product in three years of getting people to use it.
Now - I was asked last week to put a redundancy policy together (and was told at the time that I had nothing to worry about), I was also asked to include scope for putting people on gardening leave, straight out the door in the event they were selected - I have since been included in the bunch of folks at risk. I know for a fact that, without prior notice, one colleague has had his mail account reconfigured so that all his outbound mails get BCC'd to the MD - I have also heard that another member of staff, friend to the brother of the MD's wife, has had a mail from her stating that he has nothing to worry about. So right from the off it feels like they have an idea who they want to get rid of, and who they want to keep. Question is, is there anything worthwhile to do about it, or just keep rolling with punches and look for an escape?
Apologies for the novel, if you're still reading. 😀
Make sure you get some legal advice and make sure the company has some legal advice for the policy. If not it's a gaping chasm of risk for everybody involved.
The company can go f*** itself as far as I'm concerned, but it seems sensible to take legal advice for myself! Keeping notes on everything so far...
Apart from the fact you are being asked to put together criteria, you need to know the deal when you do that - if you screw up can they sack you?
Isn't the BCCing of emails to a boss shady unless it has been specified previously in the employees contract or if the employee has been made aware of it?
So right from the off it feels like they have an idea who they want to get rid of, and who they want to keep.
Isn't that what always happens in small to medium sized companies?
Yes, technically they can only make roles redundant, not people, but if the company is small enough that the directors know everyone you can bet your ass they know who is going when redundancies hit.
there is a correct procedure to go thru when making redundancies - check TUC or ACAS sites or even yougov. Most firms muck this up as it sounds like this firm is doing.
Collect all your evidence, wait for them to make a mess of it, threaten them with a tribunal for unfair dismissal which is what it becomes when they don't follow the correct procedures, settle for a compromise agreement ie a big pay-off to shut up and go away. I'd be looking for a years salary, settle for 6 months
As aforementioned, there is a specific redundancy process that must be followed, don't take lightly the weight of being responsible for the process.
There needs to be a reason for the restructure, the existing and proposed company structure must be defined, staff mapped into the new structure and those at risk given at least 90 days notice, fair system of mapping/selecting people for the available roles.
If the process is not properly followed then there is potential for a huge mess and liable for legal action from employees etc.
I know for a fact that, without prior notice, one colleague has had his mail account reconfigured so that all his outbound mails get BCC'd to the MD
If they haven't told him, this is illegal.
He definitely wasn't told - came into work and couldn't access his mail, was given a new password, sent a test mail to his home account and got the MD's out of office message in reply.
As aforementioned, there is a specific redundancy process that must be followed, don't take lightly the weight of being responsible for the process.
I was just asked to produce one if we didn't have one, grabbed a template small business redundancy policy from t'internet and converted to the company colours, submitted it as a rough draft and heard nowt back. Really hoping that doesn't bite back in the future!
He definitely wasn't told - came into work and couldn't access his mail, was given a new password, sent a test mail to his home account and got the MD's out of office message in reply.
That made me chuckle; sorry to say that I haven't anything useful to add, save that I hope it goes well for you. We're a large company (1,200+) and our HR department regularly gets this stuff wrong, despite having a decent solicitors firm on retainer, and I've signed some large compromise agreements.
Get job searching and leave at your day of choosing. Nowt to be gained rocking a sinking boat.
As said lots online from ACAS/TUC on employers redundancy obligations. Failure to follow a clearly-defined process/legal obligations will likely result in unfair dismissal claims at tribunals and potentially punative fines for $crewing-up.
Businesses can always make a case for making redundancies, but it's amazing how many get the process wrong
From your post it doesn't sound like you have much HR experience - but hey, it's their look-out and maybe they're deliberately doing that to try a deflect blame - I would at least familiarise yourself with the basics in case they try to make you the fall-guy. How much you want to share with your employer is down to you.
From the sounds of it, you'd be better out sooner than later otherwise you're tied to the mast of a sinking ship!
I joined to do tech support
I was asked last week to put a redundancy policy together
I understand that in small firms employees are expected to handle things outside of their normal roles but this seems to be stretching it a bit. I hope you remembered to add in to this policy that staff will receive 3 x their annual salary as a redundancy package 😉
I know for a fact that, without prior notice, one colleague has had his mail account reconfigured so that all his outbound mails get BCC'd to the MD
If you decide to go out in a blaze of glory, that right there should find itself on the desk of someone (ICO maybe?).
Hmm yeah I'd have politely declined to have anything to do with drawing up a redundancy procedure stating I wasn't qualified and there are potential legal ramifications.
Unless a company really does screw up the process badly (which might be the case with your bunch of cowboys but isn't usually) then in reality there's not a whole lot you can do once you're on the list (and suspect you've already been earmarked prior to the process even starting). So I'd just focus on looking for a new job without burning bridges.
Obvious response is obvious;
Its time to start looking for a new job.
It really sounds like you shouldn't be staying there regardless. From what you've said, you aren't doing the job you were employed to do and the financial situation sounds rocky.
Assuming you are under 40 and its statutory redundancy and you've served 3 full years, then you'll get 3 weeks salary capped at £489 per week.
You could possibly get legal if you were made redundant, but any compensation need to be considered against the costs/time of bringing a claim. Most of the time its just not worth it.
They may offer a "compromise agreement" where they offer a bit more money in return for a guarantee that you won't bring a claim later.
Oh, the search is under way, don't worry about that!
If you decide to go out in a blaze of glory, that right there should find itself on the desk of someone (ICO maybe?).
Information governance is massive for us, so that might be worth doing for giggles. 🙂
Snotty email from the director of communications (MD's wife) criticising my lack of success getting people to use the product, third one since redundancy was mentioned last week. I think my cards are very clearly marked - if I was a feistier character, I'd ask if she could for once send me something a bit cheerier, like the mail she sent her brother's mate, telling him he had nothing to worry about. 🙂
I joined to do tech support
As above what qualifications do you have to enable you to write a redundancy policy?
I know people do lots of different roles in small companies but would that not be the md's responsibility if there's no hr function?
Edit: although if you have a director of comms I would asume you would have hr director too
Absolutely none - I was made Information Officer a few months ago after the last one left, no training other sitting with him for a couple of hours a day, and I'm still on my original contract. No one wears a HR director's hat - I never applied for my role, just offered it when the other chap left, but I'm currently doing maybe three hours a week on that and the rest of the time I'm doing the stupid sales-type cold-calling stuff that none of us signed up to this company to do.
Yes, technically they can only make roles redundant, not people, but if the company is small enough that the directors know everyone you can bet your ass they know who is going when redundancies hit.
This. And it's not just small companies. They know who they want rid of, the restructure will be built around the people they want to keep.
But I have to say, making redundant the person writing the redundancy policy is an odd move !
Add a line in the policy about favouring the disabled, elderly and women for redundancy, put it in really small font and see if they sign it off without reading it properly.. payouts for everyone!!!
Snotty email from the director of communications (MD's wife) criticising my lack of success getting people to use the product
It does look like they are trying to document evidence for lack of performance, however in this case it seems pointless as if they are scoring based on sales performance then the figures speak for themselves.
Add a line in the policy about favouring the disabled, elderly and women for redundancy, put it in really small font and see if they sign it off without reading it properly.. payouts for everyone!!!
This x100
And maybe ad in in "the brown ones, and the gays" for maximum impact.
That does sound super dodgy. I'd say get out whilst you can. I'd also decline the offer of writing the redundancy policy or just do an awful job of it and ensure you have a record of them reviewing and authorising it.
I would also agr4ee with others that you should put in writing you do not have the skills knowledge and experience to put together a redundancy policy and are worried about the legal repercussions. Join a union NOW
pondo - Member
Snotty email from the director of communications (MD's wife) criticising my lack of success getting people to use the product, third one since redundancy was mentioned last week. I think my cards are very clearly marked - if I was a feistier character, I'd ask if she could for once send me something a bit cheerier, like the mail she sent her brother's mate, telling him he had nothing to worry about.
I worked for a two bit company like that once. They still owe me 12 grand in unpaid salary.
GTFO now.
Quick check of my mail this morning shows three from the director of communications, questioning individual cases I've been working on. I was happy to just let the process run and, if I go, I go, but this is getting bloody annoying.
Snotty email from the director of communications (MD's wife) criticising my lack of success getting people to use the product, third one since redundancy was mentioned last week.
I'd be sending a polite, but firm one back suggesting if they expect a better sales performance, perhaps they should employ a sales guy, rather than asking the tech support guy to make outbound sales calls.
Quick check of my mail this morning shows three from the director of communications, questioning individual cases I've been working on. I was happy to just let the process run and, if I go, I go, but this is getting bloody annoying.
At this point I would be leaking everything to competitors, forwarding the mail snooping stuff to the ICO and emptying the stationary cupboard.
What's your contractual position if they fire you? Why not ask for that plus as redundancy?
Oh and a good reference.
Meantime just do your job as best you can.
What are your chances of getting another?
Contract says twelve weeks notice - my preference would be to stay in office until an escape route presents itself, but, you know, if that was offered I'd give it some thought. Still working hard, still looking around.
Does it make a difference that I have never signed a contract for my new position, but the redundancy letter specifies my new office as a potential redundancy target?
Also heard that someone got a roasting from the director of communications because they'd discussed the redundancies with someone who didn't even know it was happening. This shizzle's not confidential, is it? Doesn't say so in my letter.
not having a signed contract means in broad you have the same contractual entitlement as is normal in that company / industry
YOu need to join a union!
Any recommendations for an IT type customer service union? 😀
Am I to understand that a company cannot read all company based emails under what ever circumstances they choose?
What ever fwit thought that up?
If you are using company time and company resources eh their email address/system then surely not only do they have a right to check what the hell they like but would be assumed to do so. Using your own equipment on your own lunch time with your own broadband, not their wirelss set up, is fine but anything that uses a company resource surely has to be accessible to the company and ideally without user knowledege. Wanders off shaking his head.
Anyway, OP, time to ask your union not random people here.
OP - maybe email those hassling you (i.e. trying to establish grounds for sacking you on the basis of underperforming) for a copy of the job description for your current role and the performance targets you should be measured against.
Keep copies of everything.
Am I to understand that a company cannot read all company based emails under what ever circumstances they choose?
Correct - have a biscuit. I think they CAN monitor your mails, but they have to let you know if they are going to do it, and they certainly can't just start forwarding your mail to the MD without so much as a by your leave.
maybe email those hassling you (i.e. trying to establish grounds for sacking you on the basis of underperforming) for a copy of the job description for your current role and the performance targets you should be measured against.
No individual targets, and I'm still on my original tech support contract.
Big fan of ACAS myself.
[url= http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4229 ]ACAS managing discipline - performance[/url]
may be useful to you if your employer is working their way down the cheaper than redundancy route of performance managing someone out.
I know TJ will always advocate joining a union, and in principle I agree (I'm a member of a union myself) but don't be under any illusion that union officers are any better at this stuff than anyone else - in a smaller company, particularly if you've got something up your sleeve (breaches of the DPA, for example) you might be better fighting your own corner with your own knowledge of the dynamics, who can be negotiated with and who won;t budge, where the bodies are buried etc.
I've seen some shockingly bad representation from unions - including:
cocking up filing a tribunal claim so badly that it was out of time and couldn't be heard,
and a union officer representing someone in a disciplinary hearing (potential dismissal) who kept confusing the different parties involved and ended up bringing up stuff that was very disadvantageous to the employee, but wouldn't have been able to be introduced into the evidence by the employer, but since the employee's side introduced it, was fair game.
There are doubtless some good, diligent ones too, but don't assume.
It would be worth checking that a union will help you before signing up.
I'm not a member, but our work union (Unite) will only help those who join prior to being told they are at risk. As OP has already been told, it might be too late.
Am I to understand that a company cannot read all company based emails under what ever circumstances they choose?Correct - have a biscuit. I think they CAN monitor your mails, but they have to let you know if they are going to do it, and they certainly can't just start forwarding your mail to the MD without so much as a by your leave.
Impossible to say without the contract and consent you signed up to as part of your employment. Under the DPA you may have consented your way into that position. Most employment contracts have clauses that permit employers to monitor use on business systems*
* there are obviously exceptions.
Will have a look - pretty sure personal internet access is on a reasonable use basis but don't [i]think[/i] email is mentioned.
Pleasently surprised to find my pay was about twenty quid short, other people been underpaid too. What a fun place to work this is - I'd ask the bosses but they're still on holiday in Greece, poor lambs.
Well dang - it's me! Redundanted and out on the spot. 🙁 In the pub to recover from the shock. 🙂
casework@ico.org.uk is the address you need for that possibly illegal email monitoring situation.
Cheers
Well dang - it's me! Redundanted and out on the spot. In the pub to recover from the shock.
Ouch!
Did they at leaSt give you a decent package?
pondo - MemberWell dang - it's me! Redundanted and out on the spot. In the pub to recover from the shock.
Get your paperwork for unfair dismissal in right now ( unless you got a real good payoff) they have not followed correct proceedures and could be in big trouble unless they pay you off with a compromise agreement.
seriously - I was put in a position like this - was entitled to £400 redundancy pay. ended up with 6 months paid garden leave and £7000
Indeed, they'll probably be winding up the current co and registering a new one. One you've never worked for you see. Just you or others ? In any event sounds like they made a Horlicks of it
I'd be seeking legal advice. CAB at the very least.
I got done up like a kipper by an employer, oh, 15 years ago at least. At the time the job had made me physically and mentally unwell and I was overwhelmingly relieved to be out of there, but in hindsight I'm still cross with myself to this day that I didn't go after them for it.
casework@ico.org.uk is the address you need for that [s]possibly[/s] illegal email monitoring situation.
FTFY.
As others have said, it's perfectly legal to monitor emails, [b]if[/b] and only if the employee is made aware of it.
Incidentally,
How can they complain that you are allegedly underperforming in your role and then make you redundant? Surely what they need there is more people in that role, not fewer.
It sounds to me like the product isn't doing very well, the company is going under and they know it. You want to get all the money owed to you quickly, whilst there's still a fighting chance that it hasn't all mysteriously disappeared.
They can't. Underperformance is not grounds for redundancy.
On the surface and from what we know this is open and shut unfair dismissal
Have you still got server or email access?
They can't. Underperformance is not grounds for redundancy.On the surface and from what we know this is open and shut unfair dismissal
Precisely my point.
Should've just sacked him. (-:
Yes, not clear whether you are being dismissed for a performance-related issue or whether your role is being made redundant - very different things and need to follow different processes. Conflating one with the other amounts to unfair dismissal. What does your employer letter say - they have to put it in writing?
Do not go anywhere the server if you want to continue working in IT. That type of thing gets around quickly.
A plus one for TJ unfair dismissal claim now and report to ICO for unlawful email monitoring.
Good luck with job hunting and hopefully you have enough payout to enjoy August on your bike.
That's shit Pondo. Sorry to hear that.
Thanks all, your words are much appreciated. Package-wise, it's contracted notice (12 weeks, unless they try to weasel out of it), plus statutory redundancy (3 years service) plus untaken leave. Spoken to Acas and CAB and both think that it was probably within the bounds of "fair", although I will take advice on that - it's the role they made redundant, but I only moved to the role three months ago (to backfill a leaver) doing maybe four hours work a week that's specific to that role, and otherwise doing that bullshizzle sales stuff.
With their impeccable timing, I'm away on holiday now for a fortnight (they didn't want me to have it hanging over me while I was away - aaa bless! 🙂 ) - I have nothing in writing at the mo, sure there'll be something lovely waiting when I get home. So going to put it out of my mind for a couple of weeks and see what the package actually is. They've let another chap go, and a third who has leave booked for an interview Friday has been told he can take it but if he does, he should put in for VR. Charming.
Indeed, they'll probably be winding up the current co and registering a new one. One you've never worked for you see. Just you or others ? In any event sounds like they made a Horlicks of it
Funny you should mention that - MD and director of comms registered a company with more or less the same name in June. What's the odds...? 🙂
I would be demanding they put it in writing delivered to you within 24 hours as basically you've absolutely nothing to prove anything right now. If they issue a winding up order you'll get nothing. And it would be in the next two weeks when they knownyoure hamstrung, in deeply deeply cynical about these sorts of things.
You and me both.
You need better legal advice because unless there is something you are not telling us its open and shut unfair dismissal. they have not followed proper procedures which are clearly laid out in law. Statutory consultation periods, transparent selection procedures for redundancy, efforts to redeploy etc etc.
What you need to do IMO is to use the threat of unfair dismissal to get them to pay out a decent amount in the form of a compromise agreement.
I would love to take on a case like that - its simple to run rings round folk who understand so little of the legal process
ZCol - MemberI would be demanding they put it in writing delivered to you within 24 hours as basically you've absolutely nothing to prove anything right now. If they issue a winding up order you'll get nothing. And it would be in the next two weeks when they knownyoure hamstrung, in deeply deeply cynical about these sorts of things.
The sod of it is, I'm away - they aren't back till tomorrow, how do I get them to put it writing from here? There are people they haven't made redundant - do they get TUPE'd over or would they get made redundant before transfer or something?
Letter in writing probably with legal advice signed for. If there is nobody in authority how did you get told? That person should have the power to confirm it all. Demand payment and by the sounds of it consultation time hasn't passed.
You need something in writing, without that a solicitor isn't going to be able to do much. Anyway, if they go the settlement agreement route (the new name for a compromise agreement) you have to see a solicitor.
I'd be emailing your boss asking for something in writing. If you can't email a recorded delivery letter. Something that has proof that you've asked for details. And keep a record of what has been said and when.
Good luck.
There are people they haven't made redundant - do they get TUPE'd over or would they get made redundant before transfer or something?
If you mean if the MD sets up a new company then no, they would just wind up the old company to end any legal requirements from it and start afresh. If they want the people in the old company they would just offer them jobs in the new one. TUPE only comes in during something like a merger/acquisition/outsource.
Accontant mate thinks wind up is unlikely as company had plenty of cash in March last year and only a couple of us redundanted so far.
Ok, quick update - back from leave, opened the letter and they're giving me 4 weeks, a per my contract - I never had a copy of mine, nor (so far as I know did anyone else), but the other chap got twelve weeks and I'm positive mine said I needed to give three months notice if I wanted to leave. Is there any way (or indeed any point) in challenging the 4 weeks notice (not least because they bloody knew I was away for two of them!)?
Off to look for no win/no fee dudes...
Jesus. Get lawyered up. Now.
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No point in paying what little money you have to a lawyer. Ask the company for a copy of your contract. If they provide it and it says 12 weeks notice, point out the error of their ways (this worked for my wife).
Otherwise walk away and don't look back.
Don't forget most solicitors will offer a free 30 minute consultation. Contact one of the unions above and ask who they use for employment contract work and go see them. See what they say before going any further.
Good luck.