[Closed] doctors on strike

Kirkup's article is a bit immature and I'll informed isn't it , no accident and emergency care is being withheld , a cost neutral proposal that preserves enhanced rates for unsocial hours is not about the money . If anyone comes across in all this as politically inexperienced it is Hunt who continues to allow himself to be presented as the figurehead for this toxic fight.

The writer does not write the headline and does not have any say- the subeditor does - often a source of tension.

teamhurtmore - Member

Major exaggeration a bit like the one about those nasty Tories privatising the NHS.

[b][i]"Our ambition should be to break down the barriers between private and public provision, in effect denationalising the provision of health care in Britain"[/i][/b]

- Tory Health Minister Jeremy Hunt

So a sweep stake on how long it takes Mr Chunt and the Daily Mail to report the first avoidable death due to the Jnr Doctors? I give it to just before the 1 o'clock BBC news

[url= https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3727/Majority-support-junior-doctors-ahead-of-first-full-walkout.aspx ]the Doctors still have good support[/url]

From that torygraph piece...

many of them do not know what they are doing and do not understand the conflict they are now escalating.

Much as I dislike the govt, I think this is true. Likewise comments about the bma not realising the hours and how hard other folk who got good A levels actually work, without being part of the on average highest paid, most secure profession, and whose training is paid for mainly by the taxpayer, with no lack of people coming forward who want to do the job...

A corollary of what I'm saying might be a faster race to the bottom in the public sector (bad). But I'll be walking past some of those public school picketers (okay only half of them) later today, into an organisation which is shedding a third of its staff in the next year, compulsory redundancy payments under new cabinet office guidelines (clue: they haven't gone up.) As I say, no desire to race to the bottom, I just don't think they've understood their position or what they're taking on, for a bit more pay on Saturday (or whatever.) Either way, writing's on the wall they'll lose.

Likewise comments about the bma not realising the hours and how hard other folk who got good A levels actually work, without being part of the on average highest paid, most secure profession, and whose training is paid for mainly by the taxpayer, with no lack of people coming forward who want to do the job...

I'm sorry what are you trying to say here?

for a bit more pay on Saturday

[img] [/img]

That they've not understood where they stand.

Oh and the'bit more pay or whatever' sides were close to agreeing. What's the huge issue justifying strike?

I'm sorry what are you trying to say here?

Maybe the OP's trying to say that Doctors still have amongst the highest average earnings of any graduates 10 years after graduation, will continue to enjoy lifetime earnings of £4-5m and will also continue to retire with pension pots of £1-1.6m.

Many doctors are also the children of doctors and marry other doctors - putting them very firmly at the top of the list of wealthiest families - there's some truth in the adage "ever met a poor doctor?".

It's also worth noting that the position of many of the JDs is that unless they get paid more for saturdays (despite other workers in the NHS not getting this, and most other comparable highly skilled jobs also not getting this e.g. pilots), they will move to Australia and New Zealand.

Both of these moves are apparently principled moves by JDs but it's kind of ironic that their peers in these countries not only have to pay for their own education but in NZ have been scheduled on 7 day 24 hour rosters for the best part of 20 years, something the BMA continues to maintain is not possible here due to "safety".

That they've not understood where they stand.

Who, because I'm not sure who you were trying to describe? Which Jnr Dr has had their training paid by tax payers? Which career are you talking about with no shortage of applicants? Which Jnr Dr is part of the highest paid?

I don't hint you've understood in your bitterness of the government threatening your mystery job.

It's also worth noting that the position of many of the JDs is that unless they get paid more for saturdays (despite other workers in the NHS not getting this, and most other comparable highly skilled jobs also not getting this e.g. pilots), they will move to Australia and New Zealand

Look everyone 5 minutes is back but still doesn't get it.

From Roy Lilley (a criticof the govt/NHS mgmnt perspective)

"The great and the good have written letters, made statements and palavered about. None of the Royal Colleges have any clout. They live in a past when people used to listen to them.

Patients groups have vacillated, professional organisation's have danced around their handbags, affinity organisation's have been at their ineffective best.

The GMC have issued guidance to junior doctors thinking of joining the walk-out. In brief it says JDs should be sure there is cover and their absence will do no harm.

Useless. How is an SHO supposed to sort that out. If there is a disaster, some poor soul can expect the roof to come in on their career.

If this is the best the GMC can do its hard to know why they still exists. They claim to be a guardian of patient interests. If this is, truly, the case they should be speaking to the reality; a strike is a risk, it could do immense harm and if it does... put your registration and career in the shredder.

The DH will not back down over the contract. If they do they will be a sucker-punch for all the other NHS professionals who will soon be facing contract changes to accommodate 7-day working.

The BMA dare not give up. They face reputation damage and an exodus of members of they did. The strike is about their survival.

The walk-out is no longer the issue. It's what happens afterwards. What comes next? Perpetual strikes? New doctors are already signing the contract, Trusts are implementing it, work-place Guardians will be in place. The die-hards will still be waving placards, the majority pleased to see the shemozzle fizzle out."

I don't hint you've understood in your bitterness of the government threatening your mystery job

Que?

just5minutes - Member

....... most other comparable highly skilled jobs also not getting this e.g. pilots

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-hunt-asking-for-airline-levels-of-safety-in-hospitals-is-a-flight-of-fancy-a6848871.html ]I'm a junior doctor and my husband is a pilot. He flies a maximum of 100 hours per month, whilst I can work up to 91 hours in one week alone[/url]

.

[url= http://www.jstor.org/stable/29705433?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents ]Application Of Airline Pilots' Hours To Junior Doctors[/url]

[b][i]"To cover the work of six junior anaesthetists on an annual basis would require 26 doctors if they were working within the Civil Aviation Authority's guidelines".[/i][/b]

I just think the best will leave, with nurseries closed on Saturdays, JD parents with kids forced to work will do what?

The loss of progression whilst studying PhD etc means the best JDs will be deterred from entering research and will harm medicine in this country.

Maybe these changes will improve the care in the NHS, but as the government are entering into this change across the whole country without a shed of proof or a single pilot study to show it will, JDs and the BMA are right to oppose it.

The writer does not write the headline and does not have any say- the subeditor does - often a source of tension.

I certainly wouldn't choose to reference [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12093232/Strike-all-you-like-doctors-technology-will-soon-take-away-your-power.html ]this pisspoor headline[/url] in any sensible reporting. Pretty puerile stuff.

I do see some tactical naivety in the way the BMA JDC has handled this, and wonder whether their most potent negotiating advantage, the goodwill of the public, will wither in the months to come. From my past experiences covering previous BMA contractual negotiations, I don't exactly see them as righteous campaigners for the good health of the NHS.

And sadly for their members, most of whom are well-intentioned, I suspect this will be viewed by government as a kind of 'payback' for the shambles of the GP and consultant contracts, where even the BMA could not believe how easily ministers rolled over.

The GMC have issued guidance to junior doctors thinking of joining the walk-out. In brief it says JDs should be sure there is cover and their absence will do no harm.

Which they have done.

Useless. How is an SHO supposed to sort that out. If there is a disaster, some poor soul can expect the roof to come in on their career.

They do it everyday anyway, what do you mean by a disaster?

The DH will not back down over the contract. If they do they will be a sucker-punch for all the other NHS professionals who will soon be facing contract changes to accommodate 7-day working.

Opposed to the 7 days the NHS works currently.

The walk-out is no longer the issue. It's what happens afterwards. What comes next?

It's the what happens next that they are striking for the introduction of unsafe conditions it's not about Saturday pay.

New doctors are already signing the contract, Trusts are implementing it,

Trusts have refused to implement it, stop reading the Daily Mail.

Que?

You seemed afraid to mention your place of work.

This sums up the situation quite well, I think:

[img] [/img]

(hope it sizes legibly on here)

most other comparable highly skilled jobs also not getting this e.g. pilots

Last years oil priced based blip aside where no one recruited, medicine is now in 3rd place for graduate salaries ( 1, Dentistry. 2, Process engineering).

Neither works Saturdays as a rule unless it's overtime.

Ask yourself, do you really want medicine diluted further until the best candidates give up and figure they may as well do a 4 year course in engineering?

Ask yourself, do you really want medicine diluted further until the best candidates give up and figure they may as well do a 4 year course in engineering?

Or become a pilot.

I like this.
It's a graph, so of course I like it.

[img] :large[/img]

The loss of progression whilst studying PhD etc means the best JDs will be deterred from entering research and will harm medicine in this country.

This is disputable as I know quite a few scientists with PHDs from top hospitals and none were impressed by JDs research abilities.Then as a result of hospitals favouring JDs for research career progression over better, dedicated scientists, all the scientists I know left the industry

Pilots earn significantly less than Doctors and are mostly on pretty poor pension schemes as well. Nearly all of them already work 7 day 24 hour rosters - so it's unlikely many graduates considering medicine would see Aviation as a more rewarding career alternative.

Another.

[img] [/img]

Now that Telegraph article has explained that doctors can be replaced with an App I'm not so bothered any more 🙄

Salaries for more experienced pilots could range from £36,000 to £48,000 in a first officer role. The starting salary for a captain with a medium-sized airline may range from £57,000 to £78,000, while those with the major operators could earn from £97,000 to more than £140,000.

Seems pretty good to me the strict conditions they have means they can't work too many hours. Of course the roster is 24/7 planes fly 24/7.

They are not striking about working 7 days that already happens. I'm surprised no one has mentioned that yet.

[i][edit] Drac got the same quote and link first[/i]

I could live with that.

I could live with that.

Me too. No idea how accurate is though.

I think stoners graph nicely illustrates how the dispute isn't about pay

And dragon docs with PhDs make for better docs ime,
Replacing scientists with clinicians is just stupid...

Me too. No idea how accurate is though.

Probably as accurate as some of the figures about doctor pay that get bandied about.

Does it reflect some of the substantial additional costs novice pilots have to pay out of their salaries for in-job training?

Many people are still missing the point...

1) The "evidence" that people suffer because of the current way medical staffing is arranged simply isn't there. The authors of the paper Hunt misquoted have tried, in vain, to put him right.
2) Most of the barriers to 24/7 care come from other services in hospitals, not absence of Drs.
3) The whole contract change is "cost-neutral" and is reducing the pay of junior Drs who work more at the weekends, whilst increasing the pay of others.
4) We face a workforce crisis, for various reasons, and huge recruitment difficulties in various specialities, including General Practice. The behaviour of Hunt and the DoH is alienating and driving away a naturally conservative work force.
5) The changes at the other end of the career pathway to the way pension contributions are taxed, and to the way acute hospitals are organised are driving Consultants and GPs alike into retirement as soon as they can, when expertise and workforce could be retained longer.
6) GPs are earning less than they were before the "new contract" and working much harder, Most consultants have seen most of their private practice disappear (which I think is good) and they are exhausted by having been screwed over as JDs 30 years ago, then doing Consultant-led on call aged over 60.

You don't have to think Drs are badly treated or badly paid or to sympathise with them to see there is a real practical workforce issue here. The NHS is getting worse in so many ways since 2009-2010, and is at real risk here. Doctors will vote with their feet, or retire if they can.

Considering how unattractive some people think being a Doctor is Universities have always been and remain heavily oversubscribed. When you look at career earnings, pensions and job security its a very attractive career.

Does it reflect some of the substantial additional costs novice pilots have to pay out of their salaries for in-job training?

Just like some of the figures that get banded about for Dr's and the training they pay for I would say no.

Considering how unattractive some people think being a Doctor is Universities have always been and remain heavily oversubscribed. When you look at career earnings, pensions and job security its a very attractive career.

Not as attractive as the options abroad which is where many University applicants then go to.

[quote=jambalaya ]Considering how unattractive some people think being a Doctor is Universities have always been and remain heavily oversubscribed. When you look at career earnings, pensions and job security its a very attractive career.

X-factor is always "oversubscribed" as you put it and look at some of the shite that want to be a "star"

Just cause you want to be doesn't mean you can be.

Oh dear just5minutes is back 🙄

Please tell me how you got to earnings of £4-5m, I am really looking forward to my wife being a multi millionaire.

..and get your facts right about pension pots. The government has already capped them at £750k.

just5minutes - why does it bother you so much that some of the most highly educated/intelligent/trained people in the country are paid a reasonable wage?

Edit -

1) The "evidence" that people suffer because of the current way medical staffing is arranged simply isn't there. The authors of the paper Hunt misquoted have tried, in vain, to put him right.

and he is still trying to pedal it this morning, of course to try and make it more effective he is now talking about children suffering.

Not as attractive as the options abroad which is where many University applicants then go to.

I can see how frustrated JD are, when the Labour government put more money in and gave them a weekend/evening opt out many declined. JDs are being asked to work Saturdays so they see their working patterns going the other way.

As I posted on the other thread the Tories won the election with a higher nhs spending pledge than Labour (+£8bn pa vs £2bn). What is desperately needed now is an impartial and rational review of health service provision, what we have is unique but its not working and is not workd class when looking at the overall service. When you are pretty much the only country doing something a certain way it is not necessarily a good thing and deserves scruitiny. The NHS cannot sustain itself, there isn't enough money for what it is being asked to do now and in the future.

Minor point - "JDs are being asked to work Saturdays so they see their working patterns goingbthe other way"
You do know, as I suspect may have been mentioned somewhere on the internet, this already happens, and Sundays too! And bank holidays, and nights - who do you think does the majority of the medical cover in hospitals?

As has been mentioned elsewhere, Facebook I think I saw it - today and tomorrow see little more effect to the actual care provision than multiple times per year when medics rotate posts and senior cover is the mainstay of provision, or who complained about all the ops/ appointments cancelled for the extra bank holiday for the royal wedding? Must have missed that media storm.

Thats an efficient job market, there are still more than enough recruits Good friend of mine comes from a family of South African dentists, a few years ago every single one of the graduates from the Dentistry School came to the UK. It works both ways.

Dentists!

I can see how frustrated JD are, when the Labour government put more money in and gave them a weekend/evening opt out many declined. JDs are being asked to work Saturdays so they see their working patterns going the other way.

Try again. Jnr Dr's work weekends already.

Considering how unattractive some people think being a Doctor is Universities have always been and remain heavily oversubscribed. When you look at career earnings, pensions and job security its a very attractive career.

It might attract you... but people are leaving it, there is a real workforce recruitment and retention crisis, which increasing the number of medical students hugely over the years has not addressed.

And the current students have 5-6 years of student debt over them.

I was speaking to an eye surgeon acquaintance last week. Their service is falling apart. They cannot get adequate juniors and have vacant posts. They are getting no applications for a decent consultant job. Their waiting lists are going up, appointments are being cancelled. This is (beacuse of private practice) potentially a very high-earning speciality with limited on-call call outs. If they are screwed, we all are.

From entering medical school it would take 10 years to get to the Junior Stage and 16 to the Consultant stage.

You will get the NHS you pay and vote for. Well done there!

jambalaya - Member

Considering how unattractive some people think being a Doctor is Universities have always been and remain heavily oversubscribed. When you look at career earnings, pensions and job security its a very attractive career.

This crudely assumes that people are motivated to become a doctor for money. From the large portion of my friends that work in healthcare, teaching and other public sector and care related jobs, I can safely say this is not the case.

Is there room on this thread for a joke about a haemophiliac crossing a picket line, being struck by a brick thrown by striking doctors and bleeding to death while everyone shouts "Scab! Scab! Scab!" ?

If there is I'll try and think of one.

or who complained about all the ops/ appointments cancelled for the extra bank holiday for the royal wedding?

Mr Chunt did this himself earlier on in the dispute. BMA were asking him to come back to ACAS. He agreed at 5pm the day before the strike, at which point it was too late to reinstate elective services that had been cancelled for the following day.

Fwiw I agree with the last two posts from stoatsbrother.

My last post is mainly Roy Lilley's words, hence quotation marks, incorrect apostrophes and ref to SHAs not F2s.

Google "BMA cost of training" to get their fact sheet: over £500k to train a doc in 2013, mainly paid by the NHS.

"Highest average paid" key word is average meaning mean. Again you can do your own googling.