[Closed] doctors on strike

Yeah that popped up a lot.

It's not a race to the bottom Loddrik.

Wasnt aware lorry drivers can legally work a 91 hour week of nights. Must have missed that.

So loddrik, I'm confused, you obviously favour some sort of communist system where everyone is paid an equal wage ?

Nope. Not legally. But many have no choice. Likewise security guards will offer work 15-16 hour days. Which they have to earn a livable wage, ot someone else will take their place who is prepared/forced to do it.

Well, I've never been a lorry driver or a security guard, so my opinion here may be misinformed. However, I think junior doctors (and most other frontline NHS staff) DO work harder than them.

A typical long day for me would see me starting at 8am and finishing around 9-10pm (I'm paid from 8am till 7:30pm for long days). I can often not eat, drink or pee during that entire time. For the majority, I'm in the cardiac cath lab, which is a never-ending conveyor belt of patients who need stents for blockages in their coronary arteries. When the nurses are wheeling the patients in and out of the room, I'll be furiously typing up their notes into the database, and duplicating that in their written notes. I'll also be returning calls from other doctors both within my hospital (who want me to see critically unwell patients) and from hospitals anywhere from Inverness to Manchester (as we're the regional centre for heart transplants in the north of the UK). I'm personally responsible for the cardiac patients in my own hospital too - 30 in the elective ward, 30 in the main ward, and 8 on CCU.

Did I mention that I do this without eating, drinking, or going to the toilet?

So loddrik, I'm confused, you obviously favour some sort of communist system where everyone is paid an equal

Nope. I just don't have any sympathy for doctors. They really aren't that hard up in the context of society.

The difference is that we don't offer to do a 91 hour week of nights, or work 15 hours in a row. We are rota'd to do that. And it is legal for us (well, not the 15 hours in a row - hospital management don't recognise that we do this, so as not to be fined).

A typical long day for me would see me starting at 8am and finishing around 9-10pm (I'm paid from 8am till 7:30pm for long days). I can often not eat, drink or pee during that entire time. For the majority, I'm in the cardiac cath lab, which is a never-ending conveyor belt of patients who need stents for blockages in their coronary arteries. When the nurses are wheeling the patients in and out of the room, I'll be furiously typing up their notes into the database, and duplicating that in their written notes. I'll also be returning calls from other doctors both within my hospital (who want me to see critically unwell patients) and from hospitals anywhere from Inverness to Manchester (as we're the regional centre for heart transplants in the north of the UK). I'm personally responsible for the cardiac patients in my own hospital too - 30 in the elective ward, 30 in the main ward, and 8 on CCU.
Did I mention that I do this without eating, drinking, or going to the toilet?

My heart bleeds for you. I'm sure you can leave the profession if you so wish.

At at some stage in your career you'll be well rewarded. The 'professions' I've mentioned will still be on similar money and hours into their 60's.

loddrik - Member
Doctors don't work any harder than say, lorry drivers, road layers, security guards, etc etc. All who do similar if not more hours. And get paid a pittance in comparison. But because they are not 'saving lives' then that ok.

So no, I have absolutely no sympathy for doctors whatsoever. And because my opinion is different to someone else's then obviously I'm 'trolling'...

You honestly cant see the difference in the work and its impact that say a Cardiologist does and a lorry driver? Seriously? How long does it take to get a medical degree, then on top of that how long does it take to become proficient and skilled in that field. Give over. You cannot compare the jobs you have quoted with those in the medical profession.

Drac - Moderator
He's trolling just ignore him.

What other profession has such an immediate impact on peoples life for the better??
Ambulance Driver.

Quick edit, no point in debating this with you loddrick. What is it you dislike? the fact that people are paid a lot more money that you and are fighting to keep that along with other aspects of the profession. Or is it that chip on your shoulder talking?

This complete dismantling of the NHS sickens me

As does hyperbole....?

So the rest of the population looks on in incredulity. The current NHS needs reform if it is to survive, but the debate becomes bogged down in extremes and progress remains ever-distant.

My heart bleeds for you. I'm sure you can leave the profession if you so wish.

Back to the original point - I do it for the patients.

<adds loddrick to block list>

On the plus side, not being able to afford to pay for parking at work means that I have a lovely 12 mile cycle commute every morning 😀

No one saying hard up. Just fair pay for effort involved.

Take out the individual - retention and recruitment of medical staff is falling year on year. Many rotas now rely on locums every week to maintain minimum staffing.

If even 10%-15% more juniors left there would be a huge problem staffing wise.

Entitled to opinion on pay loddrik but contract issue many other aspects to it.

after paying for my mortgage, bills and food, I break even every month

That doesn't tell anyone anything, you could have a lavish lifestyle or not. Come back to me when you are 45 and let me know if you are still skint.

Despite this the vast majority of NHS doctors are completely against privatisation.

But don't mind doing a bit on the side for extra cash 😆 and ignoring the GPs who are actually private already.

You honestly cant see the difference in the work and its impact that say a Cardiologist does and a lorry driver? Seriously? How long does it take to get a medical degree, then on top of that how long does it take to become proficient and skilled in that field. Give over. You cannot compare the jobs you have quoted with those in the medical profession.

Ok so it takes x years to train (my cousin is in the final years of her training now), they're is no way that a medical student is working harder than say, the anecdotal lorry driver, during that same period.

And saying that all doctors are in it for 'the patients' is a bit like saying all teachers are in it for 'the kids'...

Yep fair point, and it also amazes me the pay that ambulance drivers and paramedics are on for the work they do.

It was a joke. Hunt called ambulance staff drivers at the weekend. 😀

My mistake Loddrik isn't a troll just arrogant.

Um, a medical student isn't the same as a junior doctor.

And I'm pretty sure that teachers would say that they're in it for the kids...

Arrogant because my views are different..? 😕

Hmmm! I now wondering if I've crossed paths with legolam.

Arrogant because my views are different..?

Of course not just your silly comments.

Um, a medical student isn't the same as a junior doctor.

The point relates to how long it takes to train.

But hey, lest we forget, this is all about 'the patients', just as the tube drivers strike is all about 'passenger safety'...

It'll be of no surprise to you that I have absolutely **** all sympathy with them too.

I'm all for strikes, I am staunchly far left wing. I'm especially for giving the tory government, or any tory whatsoever a bloody nose. But as strikes go, the plight of junior doctors is, in my opinion, utterly laughable.

The coal miners strike((d) strook, strake, what the hell is a past tense for a strike?) was a last cry from desperate industry, they are now all gone. Likewise steelworkers, similar for dockers.

Doctors? Let me get my box of Tissues.

DrJ - Member

Did you see him on Andrew Marr last Sunday? Incredible - Marr quoted back to him his precise words about the "11,000 extra deaths", and the statements of Keogh to the effect that these deaths could not be ascribed to lack of JD at weekends, and he still refused over and over again to admit that he was wrong.

Dude; have you not noticed that he's a high functioning psychopath? He doesn't show remorse or empathy and he doesn't respect the truth because he doesn't really know or care what any of those things are.

My career path:

Left school in 2000
6 years medical school (did an intercalated physiology degree as well as my medical degree)
BECAME A DOCTOR
2 years foundation training (general medical and surgical training)
2 years core medical training
3 years core cardiology training
Currently in my 3rd year of a PhD
Still have 2 years of specialist cardiology training to do - current finish date is August 2018

For 12 of those years, I've been working full time as a "junior" doctor. "Trainee" is such a crappy term.

PS Drac - almost certainly! I believe we work in the same region

Yes we do but it's been awhile since I took anyone to PPCI.

Well, there aren't many female cardiology trainees round here, so next time you're in the vicinity feel free to pop in and say hi!

Although I'm only doing locum shifts at the moment while I write up my PhD to prop up our rota (7.5 people on a 12 person rota...)

If I'm down I may do but I'm in management now so not operational as much.

hey're is no way that a medical student is working harder than say, the anecdotal lorry driver, during that same period.

You have to be trying pretty hard to not see why its pretty hard work, requires the best and the brightness and should be well rewarded

I'm all for strikes, I am staunchly far left wing.

So [i]"staunchly left wing"[/i] that you don't support a union calling for industrial action, with 98% balloted support from members, against an government employer who is trying to change the working conditions to remove the safeguards against long hours and reduce take-home pay?

they're is no way that a medical student is working harder than say, the anecdotal lorry driver, during that same period.

A medical student isn't paid more than a lorry driver. Anecdotal or not.

Next time I'm ill and can't get a doctor's appointment I'll just head over to the Eddie Stobart depot.

a doctor's appointment I'll just head over to the Eddie Stobart depot.

Make sure you introduce yourself as 'Dr' and they can all show you due deference.

As long as Stobarts have access to Google you should be fine, as that's better than a local GP I know who uses Bing 😯

loddrik - Member

they're is no way that a medical student is working harder than say, the anecdotal lorry driver, during that same period.

There's a little bit of a pay gap- seeing as lorry driver gets paid to work, while a medical student has to pay to study. But hey, as you were.

Well MrsGrahamS has just headed out to join the picket line in Newcastle. As we speak she'll be huddled round a smouldering fire in a makeshift brazier, shivering away in a donkey jacket and her Jimmy Choos 😉

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35541962 ]Junior doctors row: Time for the nuclear option? (BBC News)[/url]

The fact is there are limited options. The NHS is effectively a monopoly employer after all.

The black lining on the silver cloud

legolam - Member
For 12 of those years, I've been working full time as a "junior" doctor. "Trainee" is such a crappy term.

Once you have gained your PhD adding to your current experience ...

... You WILL earn loads of money!!!

Whatever peanuts you are earning now you will earn them back in multiple times of your current salary in no time.

Loads of money!

You are still young by the looks of things so you shall be hitting the right moment, I am guessing you are in your mid/late 30s, to earn the big money when you got your PhD.

Loads of money!

😛

edit: in the far east the purpose of becoming a medical doctor, the vast majority of them I kid you not, is to earn loads of moneyyyy! Try speak to your colleagues from the far east etc I bet they will say loads of money is the objective ... 😛

BMA are now saying that the Government have moved on their dictated terms around weekend rates.

Looks like progress may have been slightly made, however they are saying take this offer, or we will impose.

FunkyDunc - Member
BMA are now saying that the Government have moved on their dictated terms around weekend rates.

Looks like progress may have been slightly made, however they are saying take this offer, or we will impose.

I bet the Union will demand more ... 😆

I'm curious as to why all these Loray drivers and security guards aren't doing medicine instead if it's such a cushy number?

Ah or is it because lots of them aren't clever or motivated enough / didn't take education seriously enough to do be able to actually do that job.

The "working" man seems fairly happy with the earnings of footballers being many many times that of any medical professional and yet what are they actually doing for society in comparison?

I spent the day today with a group of junior doctors who w re not striking because they were doing a teacher training certificate (you know like a real teacher) - yet another hoop to jump through to continue progressing in their career. They don't want a private NHS because of the patients even though it would reward them more (although still not as much as footballers!)

FWIW the government imposed a contract on dentists many years ago. The dentists all said it would be a disaster and patients would suffer, and what happened? Well how many of you are able to access an NHS dentist easily now compared with 20 years ago? Dentists didn't want to all go private either, they just wanted a reasonable continuation of their working conditions as they were. The NHS ones generally earn less than they did in the 70s and 80s in real terms. Anyway I digress.....

The dentists get paid well, reflecting their training and commitment. I sacrifice other more frivolous expenditure to pay for their excellent service.

Well MrsGrahamS has just headed out to join the picket line in Newcastle. As we speak she'll be huddled round a smouldering fire in a makeshift brazier, shivering away in a donkey jacket and her Jimmy Choos

Sounds so New Labour. Tony and Co would have been very proud. So why is old labour (the current lot) largely sitting on the fence here. Not enough Jezza whipping going on??

ceepers ...

Do you know how much you need to spend to study a medical degree if you are from the far east? Millions (in their currency) and most cannot afford the tuition fees. A bit like asking the UK students to spend millions to study for a medical degree ... will you pay that amount?

Many want to become doctors but just don't have the funding unlike here in the UK ...

Also being a medical doctor is a prestigious profession so there is a "membership restriction" impose on certain people ...

Others do not want to become doctors because they are not meant to be in that profession not because they are not clever rather just not interested in that profession.

Same with studying to become dentist ...

I'm not saying dentists are badly paid, I was just making the point that the government imposing a contract that the profession viewed as unfair (which would effectively either cut their wages or increase the hours worked for the same remuneration) and also a contract they told the government was a bad idea which would affect patient care turned out to indeed adversely affect patient care and the accessibility of the service, just as the profession predicted.

I think it's A kind of parallel but this thread isn't about teeth (yet, although I'm sure 7 day working for dental services is one of the next planned steps)

As far as course fees go, I agree the costs in the uk are peanuts compared to other countries but many, many other things are different in other countries too so comparing has a limited validity. Increasing the costs of training would only either reduce the numbers wanting to do the job or mean they would demand better remuneration (as they get in some other countries) this would only serve to further push the system towards the private sector.

If you don't want monkeys you have to pay more than peanuts in any part of life. You've also kind of proved my point in that, people do a healthcare job because they want to help people, not because of the cash. I was just pointing out that if it was as cushy a job as was implied above (ie easier and less stressful for tonnes of cash) then surely those lorry drivers mentioned would be medics instead.

A medical student isn't paid more than a lorry driver. Anecdotal or not.

Last time I checked, medical students aren't paid at all!

There's either some masterful trolling going on here orvsme people really do need a good hard kick in the crunchy bits.

And now he it's confirmed he's imposing it.

complete and utter tosser of a man. A shit who's imposing something with no evidence because he thinks it's a good thing for him politically.

I'd type more but the swear filter seems to be a bit less asterisky than it used to be.

It's has more than it use to so feel free to a call him a ****ing ****.

Watching him live in Parliament now.

I've rarely felt the desire to punch my monitor more.

****ing ****er.

HAve they done this to drive doctors away so the service can suffer and they can then privatise it as its another failing service - ignoring the fact they set out to make it fail

Unlikely the Drs and the BMA wont react to this.

HAve they done this to drive doctors away so the service can suffer and they can then privatise it as its another failing service - ignoring the fact they set out to make it fail

That's the only conclusion I can reach. The bad guys here.... they're not stupid. It would be nice to think that this mess exists because they're too stupid to help themselves and they might do as little as possible to stop that appearance. 🙁

That and so they can attack others who get paid unsociable hours in order to reduce their pay.

Well at least they cant take any of my unsociable hours pay off me.

It is a real shame the public cannot have a vote to decide this.
And then have a vote on MP`s contract of employment.

As others here have previously correctly said. Its just a way of running down the NHS, so enough The Sun/Daily Mail morons start screaming for privatisation.

We see this with the government encouraging hospitals to employ agency nurses on over double what they pay normal nurses. And employing foreign qualified nurses, who can hardly speak English, as nursing assistants. Then juggling the books to show they have employed qualified nurses AND nursing assistants ... when really both are one of the same.
Things are getting worse a lot quicker under the Tory`s.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/feb/10/nicola-sturgeon-fund-students-poor-backgrounds-medicine-scotland ]Scotland announce extra £23m to boost medical school applications[/url]

They're not stupid up there...

It is a real shame the public cannot have a vote to decide this.

They did at the general election. Governments do stuff you don't like get over it, happens to all of us.

That SNP announcement is a reaction to the fact Scotland’s medical schools have the most privileged intake of any in the UK. It's nothing to do with the Junior doctor issue in England.

England's NHS was also found to perform better than Scotland's, when looked at in 2014, although the gap was narrowing.

Well at least they cant take any of my unsociable hours pay off me.

Well given you don't work for the NHS it wouldn't matter anyway.

They did at the general election. Governments do stuff you don't like get over it, happens to all of us.

Doesn't mean we have to accept it.

Ultimately this is no different to what the Tory's did in the 80's with the miners and printworkers. The tactics are the same. Its just a different target this time.

They have a long term plan. And this is part of it. They want to privatise the NHS. So they have to put things in place ready for that to happen. Private healthcare providers want to inherit staff with reduced terms and conditions so that they can make more money. Simple as that.

So they're going to provoke a massive confrontation, with their friends in the media onside, to then employ whatever tactics necessary to crush the unions and thus drive through their reforms ready for their mates to take over and make a killing.

It really is that simple.

They're involved in the same type of thing with the police. Preparing to hand forces over wholesale to G4S and Serco. The only difference is that the police can't strike.

[quote=Drac ]
Well given you don't work for the NHS it wouldn't matter anyway.

I don't get any unsocial hrs payment to take away.

Think they'll stop at NHS? They'l look at every PS worker and reduce their T&C's

England's NHS was also found to perform better than Scotland's, when looked at in 2014, although the gap was narrowing.

It'll probably narrow much more quickly now as Drs from England vote with their feet and move to other parts of the UK.

Someone's updated his wikipedia page...

[img] [/img]

I don't get any unsocial hrs payment to take away

I know.

Think they'll stop at NHS? They'l look at every PS worker and reduce their T&C's

They started along time ago.

I don't get any unsocial hrs payment to take away.

If you have any antisocial hours in your regular working time, your package/contract reflects that.

Doctors have antisocial hours in their working times, and part of the issue is about the redefinition of what's antisocial.

[quote=Jon Taylor ].
If you have any antisocial hours in your regular working time, your package/contract reflects that.

Work days/ nights/ weekdays/weekends do difference in pay

Working 0300 on a Sunday morning same pay as working 1000 Monday

It is a real shame the public cannot have a vote to decide this.
And then have a vote on MP`s contract of employment.

bruneep - Member

Work days/ nights/ weekdays/weekends do difference in pay

Working 0300 on a Sunday morning same pay as working 1000 Monday

Yes, but you're likely paid more for all your hours than someone doing the equivalent job mon-fri 9-5.

People on a different set of T&C's to me in my job get a ~5% bonus in return for not being paid overtime (but still expected to work it). I 'missed out' on that offer, get paid overtime, but get less money in my normal paycheck.

From FB;

[img] [/img]

Bruneep - that's exactly what the (old) junior doctors' contract looked like. And look what's just happened to us...

Yes, but you're likely paid more for all your hours than someone doing the equivalent job mon-fri 9-5

You'd think that wouldn't you.

Sadly I think that with the imposition of the new Junior Doctor's contracts it'll spell the beginning of the end for the NHS as we know it.
As with a few others on here I've seen it change from the inside over the past few years and im not sure how they're managing it but it all seems to be getting set up for a spectacular failure.

I honestly believe that once they push this through with they'll then move onto the nurses, then it'll be ambulance staff, admin staff etc until they've royally screwed everyone. It's nothing more than a race to the bottom and I hope I'm not about to witness it.

I'm struggling with the posts by some people on here, they appear to be either blatant trolls or weapons-grade *****, I'm honestly not sure which!

[quote=mooman spake unto the masses, saying]It is a real shame the public cannot have a vote to decide this.

Err ... they do. Every 5 years. Hadn't you noticed?

And the public voted that they wanted the NHS ****ed up, welfare for poor people cut, lower taxes for Google and Facebook, libraries closed etc etc etc.

But that is OK because the Etonians in the manor house said it is for the best, and we mustn't grumble, must we?

So my wife and I sat there listening to the news break, and just quietly agreed that "a very large number of junior doctors are going to leave the NHS or quit medicine".
No two ways about it.

The NHS is, to put it bluntly, now f'ed.

Training numbers are down, medical school recruitment is down, primary care (GP) recruitment vs retirement/emigration is in completely the wrong direction...
And yet patient numbers, demand, and expectation is on the up up up....

Answers on a postcard please...
If it doesn't include the phrase "..All major credit cards accepted..." then think again...

DrP

I've just accidentally applied for my Certificate of Good Standing from the GMC to be allowed to apply to work overseas. I picked Vancouver from the drop down menu they helpfully provide - I've heard it's nice over there...

I've just accidentally applied for my Certificate of Good Standing from the GMC to be allowed to apply to work overseas. I picked Vancouver from the drop down menu they helpfully provide - I've heard it's nice over there...

I don't blame you. I'd probably do exactly the same if I was in your position. In fact I think we all would!

I know a fair few of my friends from hospital days have done just that as an 'example', rather than actually intending to naff off....
But... I'm sure now a lot of them will be giving a LOT of thought to what was initially meant as a demonstrative action.

The number of GP colleagues whose facebook feeds are all "[i]me in Oz... look how sunny perth is... i'm on the beach again whilst DrP wakes up due to driving rain on the roof...etc...etc[/i]" is getting a bit grating and worrying in equal quantities!

DrP

The number of GP colleagues whose facebook feeds are all "me in Oz... look how sunny perth is... i'm on the beach again whilst DrP wakes up due to driving rain on the roof...etc...etc" is getting a bit grating and worrying in equal quantities!

I've lost 2 climbing partners in the past year to doctoring in australia... They're screwing with my trad grade.

Fortunately the current one has signed up to a seven year palliative care program...

That being said we decided to take six months out to go travelling and visiting some of these friends in Australia, NZ and Canada in no small part so that my OH can try to decide if it's something she'd be prepared to do.

Personally I can understand anyone in the NHS who's able to gain work elsewhere doing so, I'm just hoping that they don't.

Corbyn:

[img] [/img]

You'll be lucky to get a job in Perth / Western Australia right now, same applies for parts of Canada like Calgary and Edmonton as all have falling economies.

In fact you have to wonder if this fact gives Hunt a calculated bit more leverage than previously.