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no point on a motorway
Til you hit a jam then it's great.
no place on the open road
If you are caning it perhaps. Otherwise just fine. And DSG has a manual option as I am sure you are aware which is peachy on windy roads.
You don't see too many fully auto recing vehicles - usually paddle shifting ones are RMBs or DSG types which are effectively manual boxes
A DSG IS an auto, it's just implemented better than a traditional one.
Auto boxes (with torque converters etc) are horrible to drive.
Overall yes, although they do do one thing very well which is smoothness. They can shift instantly and more smoothly than a DSG ime and when crusing about American cities they are superb. Crap any time you have bends or hills, mind.
Do people really still think that 'proper drivers only drive manuals'...?
Fortunately its true!
People who drive manual cars are keeping the tru spirit of motoring alive.
Automatic drivers - whats next? Are we going to get cars that'll steer for you aswell? You'll probably want it to wipe your arse for you too
People who drive manual cars are keeping the tru spirit of motoring alive.
Has to be a troll...! No-one can be that ridiculous for real.. can they?
A DSG IS an auto, it's just implemented better than a traditional one.
IMO it's no an auto if it's not using a torque converter. I know that's an odd and not strictly correct view, but it separates the good from the bad nicely IMO. When driving an auto of any sort I miss the connection to the car, feathering the clutch, picking the precise moment of shift, balancing left foot and right. It's just not the same when that's taken away.
It seems to be the opposite of singlespeeding.
picking the precise moment of shift
Still applies to DSG.
For me, I love how quickly the DSG shifts - faster than you ever could with a manual, and without any break in power delivery. I really want to upgrade to flappy paddles but it's 350 quid.. silly really.
I do sometimes miss changing gear manually but funnily enough never on a windy country road. Although to be honest the Passat isn't capable of being chucked around much anyway since it's too softly sprung, so it's really a moot point. It's a comfort car for sure. If I were buying a Lotus for isntance, manual all the way. If I were buying a Grand Tourer type car ie a Scirocco, I'd have to think about it 🙂
Youre still using it in manual mode, at which point its just a clutchless manual, not an auto.
I have one of each, an auto CRV and a manual Civic. The auto is much easier in traffic but takes a lot more throttle pushing on the motorway to get it up to speed and doesn't seem to have the top end of manuals (if you get to 90 ever). The Civic is horrible and seems to only like the clutch being let out once in each gear, if you dip the clutch after this it then judders like hell and is really jumpy. Horrible in traffic! Won't go in a straight line either but I believe a lot of Hondas are camber sensitive.
I test drove my dads passat diesel auto last night as thinking of getting one and had the problem mentioned earlier that when pulling out of junctions it didn't want to go until the turbo kicked in properly. About a second delay until it properly pulled away. My petrol CRV isn't like that and seems much more punchy on the throttle around town. I also had an old auto volvo 745 (petrol) which drove really well (until I blew the head gasket!), it also used to destroy xr2's even with 5 fully grown yoofs in! 😀
Plus there's the fact that even a small light modern auto box weighs as much as a dressed 2 litre engine (100kg) as opposed to the 50 or so for a manual, it adds weight to the vehicle in question.
I've alays had a manual.. I'd assumed that auto's were for people with disabilities..
got my first automatic (merc C class) at the back end of last year.. I bought it cos it was going very cheap and I needed a motor pronto..
I wouldn't go back to a manual now.. absolutely no point unles you're on a race track..
although judging from a couple of responses to this thread I'm guessing that there's a few silly billies who [i]always[/i] drive like they are on a race track.. natural selection will get them sooner rather than later with a bit of luck..
Youre still using it in manual mode, at which point its just a clutchless manual, not an auto
Splitting hairs. If I go into a VW dealer and ask for an auto, I get a DSG which is auto but has this additional feature. No point trying to make a fruit debate about apples and oranges when there are bananas and pineapples also available 🙂
Konaboy - Honda autos are famously terrible, I dunno if you are aware of this. And I suspect that DSGs in different cars are set up differently.
Autos do add weight tho and even the DSG is not as efficient. Well - the 6 speed one isn't. The 7 speed dry clutch one in newer Golfs suposedly is actually MORE efficient.
Lots of great info here guys, makes me feel I'm not that odd after all!
I test drove a CRV auto & felt the same-seemed to take a lot of pedal movement to get it going. Other auto's (Freelander, Santa Fe) didn't seem quite as bad. At the time I thought it was more down to pedal stiffness.
although judging from a couple of responses to this thread I'm guessing that there's a few silly billies who always drive like they are on a race track..
The advantages of manual over auto (such as clutch control, shift timing etc) are to be found even when cautiously driving a manual. For example when towing you want to use engine braking as best you can. In an auto that means you have to select a gear and lock in it. You might as well be driving a manual.
Lugging up a hill you want to keep the car at a set speed and torque, easy to do with a manual, cheap/poor autos change on you and start to slow down until they drop a gear again.
Changing down for a corner to give you more precise control of torque at the wheels means you're better placed to control problematic situations. If you just roll round corners off the throttle as most autos do you're not going to see any benefit, but that's not really very good driving technique. Assuming you have good visibility you've no reason to be off the throttle in a bend.
You don't have to drive like a nut to see the benefits.
that's a valid point coffeeking.. and not something I was aware of.. I've never towed anything in my life..
but totally irrelevant to the comment that you quoted me on 🙄
Not really, I was assuming the comments that had spurred your response were ones of choosing times to shift etc. Many of my comments could be read that way, hence the point that there's plenty of reasons to want direct control over your box.
My main car is manual.
Very few auto 'boxes that I like to be honest. Our A3 is DSG and its an awful thing, combines very badly with its 2.0tdi engine.
In an auto that means you have to select a gear and lock in it. You might as well be driving a manual
No, cos you can unlock it when you get to the bottom 🙂
Our A3 is DSG and its an awful thing, combines very badly with its 2.0tdi engine.
I'd be interested to hear why, since its the combo I have!
No, cos you can unlock it when you get to the bottom
I guess I just don't find moving the gear lever and clutch such a problem that i'd accept all the negatives that come with autos.
I guess I just don't find moving the gear lever and clutch such a problem that i'd accept all the negatives that come with autos
+1.
All that extra expense, weight, fuel use (at least in tradition autos) and reduction in control just so you can avoid moving a couple of levers now and then.
I don't once, but after the 100000th time it gets a bit old. For dreary distance covering duties at least.
To be honest if it wasn't for Mrs Grips's preference I'd probably have gone manual too purely for economy reasons.
For dreary distance covering duties at least.
I suppose it depends on your drive. I rarely drive anywhere in traffic or on a motorway. I choose not to if I can help it, though I must say I'm not consciously aware of gear changes on a commute type journey, it just happens. When I worked in Liverpool and commuted at rush hour every day I found I got a strong left leg, but generally left the car in 2nd gear so it was only my leg that got any action, if you're not in a rush to rush up someones bum with every light change it doesn't take much doing - ease the clutch up, slowly forward, ease the clutch down, brake. Rinse and repeat.
I rarely drive anywhere in traffic or on a motorway
Lucky man 🙂
I only really noticed the downsides of manual after having exclusively driven the Prius for a couple of years and then getting stuck in traffic on the M4 for 40 mins in my old Passat with a moderately heavy clutch.
I also find it helps massively if the gearstick's in the right place on a manual. Amazing how often it isn't. My parents' old Almera could at best be described as a very plain dull car, but the simple fact that the gearstick was in the right place made it great fun to drive (for me).
Wife had a Merc SLK350 with a 7 speed auto box, was probably the worst thing about the car.
1) Pulling away, either like a granny or mach 1
2) balanced throttle through a bend I don't want you to change up for me.
3) Lifting off at a roundabout to time entry I dont want you to change gear.
4) Paddle shifts when I press to change gear I mean now, not in two days time.
Didn't work for me most of the time, fab in traffic though 🙂
Edited to add
5) Even in sport mode it would not hang on to the gears long enough to make the most of the great engine.
Suppose that with a diesel engine and a relaxed driving style you can always pull away even if it does change up in bends. Definitely manual mode for me if I want to drive faster.
Suppose that with a diesel engine and a relaxed driving style you can always pull away even if it does change up in bends. Definitely manual mode for me if I want to drive faster.
Reckon the 3.5L petrol V6 had more low down torque than a lot diesels. Its not like it would not do it, it was just annoying.
Even in manual mode the changes were really slow, but at least it held onto the gears.
You could still drive it fast, it just felt like you were driving around its problems rather than the car working with you IYKWIM ?
If I was driving round London in traffic I would probably feel differently. The right tool for the job and all that.
I would give a DSG or a SMG box a go though as I know they can change gear a lot faster, though I do like to use the clutch so would take a bit of convincing.
Yeah, auto will always be better for relaxed driving overall I think.
I don't have flappy paddles but I can shift with the selector lever, and tbh that took a lot of getting used to and I still find it un-intuitive, despite being a lot simpler to do than shift with manual. Old habits die hard I suppose.
Not really
yes... really!
sillybilly
We used to run all Dodge Rm pickups with manuals boxes and tow 10,000lbs combines headers with them, we changed to autos 3 years ago and would not go back to a manual now, just got our first Ford 350 pickup with adblue so on the next challenge now with this emmision crap
[qupte]yes... really!
sillybilly
Now you've lost me, what's your point again? 🙄
We used to run all Dodge Rm pickups with manuals boxes and tow 10,000lbs combines headers with them, we changed to autos 3 years ago and would not go back to a manual now, just got our first Ford 350 pickup with adblue so on the next challenge now with this emmision crap
Rams have sufficiently large engines to be notably unfazed by the loses in an auto box. Still, it's personal taste I presume, wouldn't catch me towing with an auto anymore - tried it a few times and really dislike it (3.5 litre straight 6 auto).
I've briefly driven a couple of vehicles with some oomph - an old Range Rover and an Audi 3.0l that were auto and it was a pleasurable enough experience.
I've also driven a couple of underpowered cars (Micra and something else insignificant I can't remember) and they were horrible experiences - really revvy without going anywhere.
I drive a manual diesel pick-up (170bhp) which I'd have in auto, if it didn't cost 4-5mpg. Saying that though I drive 40k a year and changing gear never really bothers me. There isn't really any aspect of driving that bothers me.
I had an automatic Ford focus estate for a while, only because the guy i bought it off had only one arm.
I thought it was great, i could drive, hold a cigarette and my phone all at the same time, without having to try and change gear 8)
apart from that, automatics are superb in traffic jams.
Its amazing that in the 21st century most drivers are still having to change gear using two bits of bent metal shoved through the floor of the car. In what other consumer product would we have accepted such lack of progress?
Auto if at all possible for me coupled to a nice torquey diesel. Main disadvantage of torque converter boxes for me is the time taken to shift ratios. Fortunately my current car has a 500Nm of torque so it doesn't need to change gear very often 🙂 Yes autos have higher fuel consumption but by adapting my driving to take advantage of the auto's ability to coast I find I can get very close to manual fuel consumption figures.
I recently had a new BMW 530d for a weekend which had the new 8 speed ZF box which is a torque converter but changes as quickly as a DSG. It also had the uncanny ability to predict when I wanted to change down a gear to accelerate rendering the paddle changers redundant. It accelerates as quickly as the manual car and the fuel consumption is very close too. If this is the future of automatics the manual is on its way out at last.
I've also driven a couple of underpowered cars (Micra and something else insignificant I can't remember) and they were horrible experiences - really revvy without going anywhere
They used to put CVTs in small cars like that (which are squarely aimed at the disabled I suspect) to make the most of what power's available and minimise losses. We had an old Fiesta auto for a little while and it was much the same. It feels slow to have the engine rev away without accelerating fast, but bear in mind tiny engined small cars wouldn't accelerate fast with a manual either. Thing is, without the extra weight of the box it would probably have been slightly quicker due to keeping the revs in the maximum power band all the time.
The one we had was an absolute complete and utter pig to drive, possibly the worst car I've ever driven (but only possibly). However once you figured it out it could be quite fun. Basically you rolled it along, giving it a bit of a push every now and then from the throttle.. rev, trundle.. rev, trundle...
Bazzer
I'm surprised by the Merc, as I've a 535i and quite frankly I prod the accelerator and it just goes - and if I prod it harder, it goes quicker. And just grips.
Its also got a sport and manual mode, but I never really use either - unless I want to overtake in a very short space...
Its amazing that in the 21st century most drivers are still having to change gear using two bits of bent metal shoved through the floor of the car. In what other consumer product would we have accepted such lack of progress?
Bikes.
Motorbikes.
Taps
Bins
Pretty much hundreds of consumer products where the owner wants control over the item rather than the item deciding itself. I'm 100% sure that 95% of bike owners would hate to ride a CVT or auto type shifting bike.
Yes autos have higher fuel consumption but by adapting my driving to take advantage of the auto's ability to coast
Yeah, does't work with a DSG sadly.
Thing is, a good auto is a lot more expensive, still thirstier, worse to drive in enough situations, more complex and more failure prone than a manual. Those are compelling reasons I reckon for the existence of manual.
davidtaylforth - Member
...People who drive manual cars are keeping the tru spirit of motoring alive.
Nah, they are just using a complicated procedure for controlling a tin box with an engine.
Probably use MSDOS2.1 on their computers too.
Had a DSG Golf for a while. Lovely car, well executed box (I'll call i a clutch-less manual)...
But if I had another it would be a manual
Manual.
Auto's are for women, & blokes who can't manage. (one way or another)
Fact.
Always had a manual up to last car. Now have a large diesel auto estate car.
Kind of torn. 95% of the time stop/go is fantastic and if stuck in traffic jams it is soooo much better. However when driving spiritedly esp cross country even in BMW sport mode it just doesn't feel right.
That niggle may be enough to see me back in a manual next time though!
All you hairy chested real men best make the most of your manuals then. In 20 years we'll all be driving auto hybrids or electric cars with one gear.
coffeeking - MemberIts amazing that in the 21st century most drivers are still having to change gear using two bits of bent metal shoved through the floor of the car. In what other consumer product would we have accepted such lack of progress?
Bikes.
Motorbikes.
Taps
BinsPretty much hundreds of consumer products where the owner wants control over the item rather than the item deciding itself. I'm 100% sure that 95% of bike owners would hate to ride a CVT or auto type shifting bike.
OK change manually if you must but we've been able to change gears on our bikes with our fingertips for the last 20 year so why not our cars- except of course for a few DSGs with paddle shifters.?
Hate autos! They disconnect you from the driving experience and waste fuel.
The only time they have worked for me is when I was driving in and out and around central London in massive jams day in day out.
Always driven manual and never even considered an auto, but here in oz the majority of cars seem to be auto and I actually quite like it. Also much prefer driving with my wife when we have an auto car as there's no clutch riding, high revs or dodgy gear changes. No roll-backs on hills and no stalling. Considering getting an auto car for her when we come back to the UK actually.
Don't see how people say auto's are not proper driving. Surely rally cars or F1 cars are auto?
Manual.
Much better control of the car, through corners or on any kind of hilly road, and much more interesting to drive. More options - lazy cruising early shifts up through the gearbox or hold the revs (as long as I[i] like) for making better progress. The engine feels properly connected to the drive wheels.
A manual car with a modern ECU will trickle along quite nicely in traffic in 1st without any throttle so they're not that much more of a chore unless you're in full stop/start traffic.
I've on occasion driven a torque converter auto and owned a BMW SMG for about a year.
Didn't like:
(TC) springy "broken elastic" disconnected feel between the accelerator and anyting actually happening
Poor / non existent engine braking
The fact that a tiny prod of the accelerator makes the revs go mental, long delay while TC catches up and eventually the car goes a little faster / maintains speed up a hill.
Having to sit with my foot on the brake at traffic lights.
(SMG) Jerky starting off. Jerky when going from forward to reverse modes. Occasional random large THUMP when shifting gear. Having to finesse the accelerator to get a gear change that was worse than what I could do with a conventional manual. Bewildering array of almost but-not-quite identical shifting modes/speeds.
so they're not that much more of a chore unless you're in full stop/start traffic
And of course, that never happens.. 🙂