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...it’s a tricky one.
Lets hear your thoughts, some of you may have even had one in the 60s/70s. I didn’t have one but certainly remember the dolls.
Any one fancy a jam sandwich!
Least tricky thing ever
Society has deemed them racist so go with that.
Can open, worms everywhere....
What on earth could be wrong with the term wog? It's pc gone mad, what next?
One of my earliest memories is being in hospital and the nurse taking away my golliwog, would have been mid to late sixties.
I wasn't racist, I was about four years old. I think they are racist now tho, not that its my opinion that matters.
As tricky things go, it’s not. But it is racist.
hth
Yes.
…it’s a tricky one.
No, it's not.
Glad we cleared that up, next question.
I would not generally determine my reaction on the majority reaction of well-meaning, white liberals, but rather that of the potentially-affected people themselves. And in the case of the golliwog, it is definitely seen as racist.
So, yes.
A golliwog to me is just a doll. They bear no resemblance to persons living or dead.
That's just me though. If people don't like them then fair enough; I haven't lost anything.
Born in the seventies, FWIW.
A golliwog to me is just a doll. They bear no resemblance to persons living or dead.That’s just me though. If people don’t like them then fair enough; I haven’t lost anything.
Born in the seventies, FWIW
Who do you think might see it as rude or offensive? Why might that be!
Who do you think might see it as rude or offensive? Why might that be!
As I tried to suggest, to me they don't resemble any human being, but if people view them as a caricature of people with an African background then I can accept that, so censure away.
My life is neither enhanced by their existence, nor detracted by their omission.
I always preferred floral gardens to the dolls anyway.
Puppets were a different matter however.
Banned by the Nazis weren't they?
When I was a child they were make believe creatures that lived in the woods in a noddy book. They did not represent people especially not any of the black people I knew (the were never repairing cars in the street for at start, mind you this appeared to be a national pastime for decades).
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">sometimes it seems adults push meaning on things that children don't see. That being said they are inappropriate for today</span>
Would anyone like to comment on the hideous white caricature I posted above...?
It's great, does anybody do it in doll form?
They are now deemed racist, I'm 42 and back in t day I and many others were ignorant as to what they seemingly represented. I lived in a town with a pub called the blacks head with a picture of a blackamoor hanging up outside the pub ffs. We even got to the point where a mixed race lad at school (he was half cast back then) was and still to this day is known as golli. He has no issue with it but I'm certain if i saw him now id call him by his real name.. Make of that what you will.
Yes, it's racist.
Once upon a time my brother and I sported matching golliwog jumpers knitted by my Mum, height of fashion.
Only people can be racist not things.
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12px; background-color: #eeeeee;">Only people can be racist not things</span>
you might want to re-think that,
@Wrightyson, having been there, he probably did have a problem with it, but was sick of the alternative.
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12px; background-color: #eeeeee;">My life is neither enhanced by their existence, nor detracted by their omission.</span>
agreed.
The may not of been intended to be racist but they became a symbol of racism.....not tricky is it.
see also swastica and the n word,
@nickc Go look up the definition of racism and ask yourself if that could be a property of an inanimate object. It can't. Like so many arguments this is down to sloppy use of language. What the golliwog is is offensive, not racist and that's an easy thing to decide: if people find it offensive then it's offensive.
I had one as a child and loved it, and still quite like them, current feelings probably influenced by childhood memories.
However I grew up in a largely white society, pretty isolated at that time, and, as far as I can remember, never saw a black person until my teens. I can see why they're considered racist, and am happy to go along with that opinion, but I don't think that I see them as 'black' or indeed of any race.
It’s not racist. It takes intent to be that, and a golliwog is a thing, not a person. To own, display or otherwise endorse Golliwog symbology is definitely racially insensitive, and may well be racist, depending on the intent.
I have one in my "memory" box.My Great-grandmother made it in 1970 and when I hold it, I'm sitting in her house ,over the road from the pit. My Great-Grandfather is cursing in his chair with a pipe and sometimes an accordion! They still had a tin bath and a wringer in the garden!
The doll was my friend & I loved it, so if anything,in a simple, subconscious way, it helped me be the broad minded citizen I am today. & not a racist bigot.
Needless to say, my son doesn't have one. Though he and his friends often fight for the Black fireman & workmen toys! Which happen to have better names than the one my Great-grandmother made.
It wasn't racist in the 1950s, but it has acquired that aura since, so it's a definite no no now.
Wog has been an offensive term for a long time. British officers from the prewar Indian army complained about the propensity of war service officers from the UK using it about Indian servicemen.
This is pretty poor trolling 🙂
For those that do not think that a golliwog doll is racist, would you take one to work and put it on your desk, and not expect to get fired? How about a picture of one on your T-Shirt?
Would you be embarrassed if a black colleague visited your home and noticed one on your shelf (didn't this happen on an episode of 'Extra's'?)
They are very widely considered (almost universally?) to be inappropriate, and have been since, what, at least the early-mid 1980's, if not well before. Is that enough to sway your judgement, or do you think you know better?
Reckon just about everyone here thinks it's racist. Some argument about the details. Best close the thread here otherwise we will end up with the usual STW fight in an empty room
No.
But not all 'the usual racists' haven't been on to have their say yet?
The issues with them are blatant. Anyone that needs to ask or hasn't worked it out by now has some race problems.
First person to use the term 'snowflake' (that one doesn't count) wins the internet
I'm wondering how many of the above posters "have black friends".
Fwiw, it's considered offensive, and to own or endorse one is considered an endorsement of racism, and brings question to your racial beliefs.
There is a historical content - see Senor Js post above - which transcends the line, but keep it locked away in company's so's not to cause offense.
It's easy for white people to say they're not offensive.
Only people can be racist not things
you might want to re-think that
Actually I think Spin makes a valid point.
see also swastica and the n word,
Same applies really. Both those can be used in a non-racist manner.
That said, gollywogs now have a widespread association (rightly or wrongly) with racism. It's a shame really, as kids we collected Robinson's badges and I'm pretty sure didn't associate them with "actual black people", as vinnyeh says. But we were kids then and this is an issue amongst adults. But because they may be considered offensive it's probably right they are largely consigned to history. Mind you I think if I was a black American I would be pretty pissed off about lawn jockeys.
is calling a white person snowflake racist? probably
Would i be offended if some called me snowflake? not really as there is no history of violence and hatred associated with this term.
'is calling a white person snowflake racist? probably
Would i be offended if some called me snowflake? not really as there is no history of violence and hatred associated with this term.'
Just to clarify (because I didn't even consider it), the term 'snowflake' has no racial connotation as far as I am aware. I was using it from the point of view of a bigoted trump supporter, who widely use the term to disparage anything they consider Liberal (or anything they disagree with). You have to be a special type of backwards hillbilly to use it without irony right now.
More rascist than the local morris troop who feel the need to "black up" like the B&W minstrels because it's "tradition" but not much
Given the term snowflake was coined by white folks abusing white folks it's going to be a stretch, especially as it's now been turned around to highlight those free speech loving haters can't take a tiny little bit of criticism.
Anyway the doll (or the presence of it without a serious context such as explained very well in a museum) is racist.
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12px; background-color: #eeeeee;">Same applies really. Both those can be used in a non-racist manner.</span>
would you wear either on a t shirt?
Supposing you saw a black child with a golliwog, woud that be considered racist? I'm not all that comfortable with the use of the n word by Richard Prior and Chris Rock either.
It's used extensively in films as well. Personally, I think if you want something to be truly beyond the pale, it has to be unaccaeptable to all parts of society, like use of the Swastika for instance.
Supposing you saw a black child with a golliwog, woud that be considered racist?
Does not matter who is holding the symbol of racism.
Yes.
I grew up when you could get golliwog badges, even had one myself, I was only about 6 years old.
Remember "The Black & White Minstrels Show" being on a Sunday evening as well.
Lots of racist things went on in the past, part ignorance, part racism.
Best left in the past.
More rascist than the local morris troop
It's a "side" not a "troop". You're being morrisist.
I took the term 'snowflake' to mean 'fragile' , as in dissolves away at the first sign of heat? Cant be arsed to look it up as I see it used a lot on youtube comments. Always a bad sign 😉
I missed out on the UK in the 70’s, seems like you had a lot of fun with dolls and jam jar cartoons, and dancing shows on TV.
I did experience racism however, segregation to be exact. Plenty of assemblies in school telling us to cross the street if meeting oncoming non-whites. Quite weird hearing Hispanics spout the same message about Blacks, and vice-versa. Watching people cross streets or never enter streets deemed Black territories (I have for this example used the term Black to cover all non whites, apologies)
I have thankfully made my own mind up about the colour of someone’s skin, it has absolutely no bearing on either thier personality nor attitude.
The Golliwog doll is a simple tool/image to depict a colour of a doll, it’s the underlying attitudes and base level roll play put into the doll whilst playing with it that determines whether you perceive it racist or racism. The same could be said for the Barbie Doll, and if I remember rightly they made a Black and Hispanic version of those too.
I’d offer up if you are predisposed to racism and your attitude towards it, then you’ll find racism in anything material or imagined.
With respect to gollywogs bearing no resemblance to people living or dead:-
[img] 
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They are a representation of "**** minstrels" which were a common entertainment a hundred or so years ago in the US and Britain. Some were white people blacking up and some were black people dressing up on the grounds that "business is business".
To (most of) us the whole concept is tasteless and based on a patronising view of African Americans, but in the days of child chimney sweeps and people "in service" it wasn't such a big surprise.
The term snowflake is nothing to do with being white and everything to do with being fragile.
The Golliwog doll is a simple tool/image to depict a colour of a doll, it’s the underlying attitudes and base level roll play put into the doll whilst playing with it that determines whether you perceive it racist or racism.Not so neutral as that. The doll is a caricature and echoes some pretty unpleasant other caricatures
I had a black action man doll when little, I remember thinking he looked more like Shaft. My dad got it from the US.
The Golliwog doll is a simple tool/image to depict a colour of a doll, it’s the underlying attitudes and base level roll play put into the doll whilst playing with it that determines whether you perceive it racist or racism.
Not so neutral as that. The doll is a caricature and echoes some pretty unpleasant other caricatures
The problem with the golliwog is the people that think it is racist just because it is black. It is a character from a children's book with no racist intent.
Shows how much the "snowflake" thing has just become an unthinkingly used "insult" - it's usage did not arrive with any racial connotations whatsoever, but nor was it originally about fragility - the "special snowflake" thing was based on the (unproven but speculated) belief that every snowflake is unique (and hence "special").
This usage / meaning entered the popular lexicon after it appeared in Fight Club.
And yes, of course golliwogs are too loaded with racist connotations to be anything other.
I had one as a child and loved it, and still quite like them, current feelings probably influenced by childhood memories.
However I grew up in a largely white society, pretty isolated at that time, and, as far as I can remember, never saw a black person until my teens. I can see why they’re considered racist, and am happy to go along with that opinion, but I don’t think that I see them as ‘black’ or indeed of any race.
Pretty much this for me.
thing is if someone doesn't like it its not really a massive hardship is it?
However strange as it sounds i find the term snowflake offensive as i think its making someone feel bad about being upset about something. which i dislike.
I had a cuddly toy one as a nipper. It was called Golly. I cuddled it in bed. But that was the 60s where 3 year olds were allowed to be racist without being frowned upon.
Are they still a thing then? I must live a sheltered existence.
I do love a STW 'white middle-aged men defining racism' thread.
The problem with the golliwog is the people that think it is racist just because it is black. It is a character from a children’s book with no racist intent
No people think it is racist because it's an offensive characterisation of anyone who happens to be black.
Sometimes I think some people on here want to go back to the 70s when minorities knew their place.
Context is everything.
If you were talking about your toy & your toy is a golliwog, then no.
If it's someone of colour, then most likely yes.
[i]It is a character from a children’s book[/i]
which is
[i] a representation of “**** minstrels” which were a common entertainment a hundred or so years ago in the US and Britain. Some were white people blacking up and some were black people dressing up on the grounds that “business is business”.[/i]
which
[i]is tasteless and based on a patronising view of African Americans[/i]
I was born in the 1950s and the Robinsons golliwog was seen as perfectly acceptable at the time . But it was also the era in which it was seen as almost funny to watch Albert Johansen who was the first black footballer to play in the first division on the wing for Leeds United . In those days wingers pretty much ran up and down the touch line and crossed the ball and as he did so it was normal for the crowd to pelt him with banana skins to most people's amusement . Times have thankfully changed and neither is acceptable in the modern world .
Interesting IHN, do we know for certain that Upton took the inspiration for her Golliwog character from the "**** minstrels" or was it a coincidence?
It seems plausible to assume she might have done, but I'd be loath to claim she did without proof & she's not really here to defend herself either.
Yep.. historically it is a humiliating stereotype of a race of people.
And this thread while not racist, is pretty childish and unnecessary. Like a little kid trying to get attention by saying bum or willy
Not much to add to this really as I'm in broad agreement with the general consensus on here.
Things have moved on, I too had a doll when I was younger which probably had something to do with the fact that in the 60s and 70s (before my time) my grandad was the county Robertsons rep, driving across SE England and east Anglia setting up shop displays. You can imagine the amount of "memorabilia" we found when we did a garage clear out about 10 years ago. There was still a pretty healthy market for it and not by lunatic racists, just people who collect old stuff. Still, we didn't keep any of it as we viewed it as inappropriate, my grandad on the other hand sees nothing wrong with it.
But yeah, it's from another time and not something we would promote to our two children
[i]Interesting IHN, do we know for certain that Upton took the inspiration for her Golliwog character from the “**** minstrels” or was it a coincidence?[/i]
Golliwogs, in general, came from that inspiration. Upton may or may not have known that, and may or may not have cared, as many people at the time did not.
Times have changed, and (a lot) of people now do care about the use of the Golliwog and what it represents.
I'm a massive racist*.... I've gone a far as having a Golliwog magnet on the fridge.
*GF is mixed race.
do we know for certain that Upton took the inspiration for her Golliwog character from the “**** minstrels” or was it a coincidence?
Think you are stretching credulity to argue its not based on the thing it looks exactly like.
Think you are stretching credulity to argue its not based on the thing it looks exactly like
Standard approach to justify casual racism... see also, 'No one complained about it when I was growing up'
When I worked in Middleton there was a group of police officers who wore golliwog badges or ties and called themselves the golliwog club .They were known to be racist , they were known to be a racist clique .
Seems like a grey area to me.
It was Robertsons jam who gave out the badges not Robinsons they gave us the gloopy barley sugar drink
Have been accused of looking at busty classmates chest too often but it was her badges on her lapels i was eyeing up she had lots on show. Was i bad back then 40 years ago?
*GF is mixed race.
see i hate this, the are a "person" or "human being" no reflection on the poster as the phrase is considered the norm but it segregates people rather than describes them imho
Can't believe im posting in this thread. But then, i'm more disbelieving that the OP needed to ask this question - and has garnered any level of support.
<div class="bbp-reply-author">slimjim78
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Can’t believe im posting in this thread. But then, i’m more disbelieving that the OP needed to ask this question – and has garnered any level of support.
I cant sit on here all day !!! Gotta work !
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Its a forum we can all ask any question we like
Thanks for your input !
At this moment in time I couldn't care less either way on the subject...
...is having a black doll racist if a white child is playing with it ?
Context is everything.
If you were talking about your toy & your toy is a golliwog, then no.
Context is everything, but context very much includes the world we live in and the provenance of the things (physical or abstract) within it.
And the world we live in is one which increasingly views these dolls, given their clear provenance as a popularisation of a theatrical device used for blatantly racist mockery, as being obviously symbolic of that racism.
I think in its origin the golliwog was not intended to convey any negative racial undertone or inference - possibly affection.
Back when they were popular there was limited immigration and people were generally a little naive, in the same way my swimming club in Bradford back in the early 70's was called the "nignog club".
We've come a long way since then. don't airbrush it out, but accept it's consigned to history, and rightfully so.
is having a black doll racist if a white child is playing with it ?
You genuinely can't see the massive and fundamental difference between that doll and the subject of this thread? Jesus wept.
