[Closed] Do you believe on god?

You're really under par today aren't you?

Science? As a thing?

What Evil Science is this?
The same science that gives us knives and forks?

Shall we put Nasty Science in jail?

Go and have a lie down, you're obviously a wee bit over tired.

No weapons were created before science FACT
agree i hate the way that kids get taught religion in school - no need. My son at a non religious school got a picture of the snake that tempted them in the garden of eden to colour in. We gave it a tattoo that said MYTH and sent it back in with a picture of the big bang on the other side.

having spent the afternoon at the funeral of my best mate i am pretty sure its horse shite! why whould he put a family thro that greif, what can it possibly achieve?

rightplacerighttime

divisive- unless everyone at that school follows the same religion those who don't will be excluded / made to feel different

indoctrinating - teaching children that myths are true - of course its indoctrination. 🙄

Go and have a lie down, you're obviously a wee bit over tired.

😆

Whereas you're obviously utterly exhausted and sleep-deprived. 😉

Shall we put Nasty Science in jail?

Shall we condemn Nice Religion? Hmm? 😕

The same Religion that gave us the basis for almost all our current laws?

Quite why we're discussing [i]Religion[/i] on a 'Do you believe in God' thread I don't know, but there you go. If you can't seperate things then I spose we'd better humour you. 😐

[i]Quite why we're discussing Religion on a 'Do you believe in God' thread I don't know, but there you go.[/i]

It's a discussion. These things evolve...

Did you see what I did there?

Anyway, you know I'm right, so stop it and go to sleep.

Elfinsafety
The same Religion that gave us the basis for almost all our current laws?

It didn't. Religion co opted and codified the morals we evolved as a tribal plains dwelling ape, nomadic huntergatherer and farmer.

You and Iboth know you will collapse with exhaustion long before I am spent, so why not take your own advice and get yer head down eh?

Go on; you know it's for the best. 😉

And you know you can't win against me, so it's pretty futile trying really isn't it? 🙂

Do yourself a favour son, and give it up now while you've still a modicum, of self respect.

You too TJ. Can't be doing with your nonsense tonight.

The same Religion that gave us the basis for almost all our current laws?

There are laws that imprison man, and laws that set man free. Our system of law seems to be mainly about the former.

Quite why we're discussing Religion on a 'Do you believe in God' thread I don't know,

Maybe because the two are inextricably linked? Seems unsuprising to me. Those who say 'I believe in god but I'm not religious' are kidding themselves IMO, they are maybe just practising a religion all of their own.

BTW Elfin, no witty comeback? I'm hurt...

Lol, no point in trying to out-Elfin the Elf Master.

Seriously though, you do seem a wee bit under the weather, and I think you smell a bit of wee. Have you been a bad boy this weekend?

Those who say 'I believe in god but I'm not religious' are kidding themselves IMO

Oh really?

Care to explain (not that you've managed to do that at all at any stage in this thread, so quite honestly i'm not expecting any change there)?

Do you ever stop to consider your own arrogance? I mean, I do occasionally, but then let's face it, mine is at least justifiable. 😀

no point in trying to out-Elfin the Elf Master.

Here is Wisdom. You will be well advised to listen to it.

Have you been a bad boy this weekend?

More than likely. I'll let you wonder as to how...

[img] [/img]

divisive- unless everyone at that school follows the same religion those who don't will be excluded / made to feel different

indoctrinating - teaching children that myths are true - of course its indoctrination.

TJ - prepare for a shock...

... everyone IS different.

Being different in itself is not a bad thing. Schools are used to dealing with difference - they can handle it.

(But BTW, the point you make seems to suggest that you are more concerned about the kids who are not religious? Maybe it should be compulsory, so that everyone does feel included?)

As per my previous post - my daughter goes to a church group to sing once a month - you know what, it's the singing and the meeting of her friends that she likes, not the feeling of being one of Jesus' little soldiers.

As for the indoctrination stuff, I'm sure that even my daughter, who actually goes to church from time to time and goes to a Christian VA school hears more stories about fairies presented as fact than she does about Jesus Christ.

Do you believe on god?

No.

Please make it stop now.

Being different in itself is not a bad thing.

Hmmmmm........

[img] [/img]

Please make it stop now.

That sounds like some sort of prayer.

lol, what makes you think that I am arrogant? I mean, I might be, but I always try to see both sides of the argument, and I try never to express my opinion as fact, unlike you.

Explanation to my last; What I mean is, that if you believe in God, you are religious. I think that is pretty much the definition of the word. hang on...

re·li·gionNoun/ri?lij?n/1. The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
2. Details of belief as taught or discussed.

Yep, there you go. I accept completely that a person can believe in god but not be a part of [i]organised[/i] religion...

Also I'm quite new to here. what is 'out-Elfining'? Is it presenting your own opinions as the god given irrefutable truth? pretty sure i'm not doing that...

The same Religion that gave us the basis for almost all our current laws?

Oh dear. Next you'll be telling us morality didn't exist before the bible.

Too many stupid people. 🙂

re·li·gionNoun/ri?lij?n/1. The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.

How about the Religious Society of Friends aka Quakers. Some believe in a god, some don't. Or Buddhism for that matter?

perhaps their god's could have a word with the dictionary and sort it out ?

(But BTW, the point you make seems to suggest that you are more concerned about the kids who are not religious? Maybe it should be compulsory, so that everyone does feel included?)

What about people who have a different faith? I had friends at school who weren't allowed to sit in assembly/lessons about easter/christmas etc because we used to sing a few hymns/learn about Jesus and they weren't CoE (was a standard state primary).

It's like suggesting everyone who goes to a certain school should be Liverpool supporters 'so they feel included'. Perhaps you should respect that fact that some people don't invest anything in football, or that some people are staunch Everton fans.

How about the Religious Society of Friends aka Quakers. Some believe in a god, some don't. Or Buddhism for that matter?

Yeah, how about them?

No seriously what about them? Its just a quote from a dictionary, that I quickly found to explain to Elfin why I thought that someone who believed in god was by that virtue, religious (because he said I haddened explained myself) I never suggested that someone couldn't be part of a religious community without believing in god. I hadn't even thought about it either way...

So you can be a Quaker without believing in god? never knew that. how curious. Whats the point?

what makes you think that I am arrogant? I mean, I might be, but I always try to see both sides of the argument, and I try never to express my opinion as fact, unlike you.

Cobblers. Utter Cobblers. All you've done is try to present your onions as the Truth, and rubbish any alternative views.

What a joke this is. You've reduced things down to a mere dictionary definition, whilst ignoring what I've stated about myself.

What I mean is, that if you believe in God, you are religious

Right, let's have a look:

religious(re·li·gious)

Pronunciation:/ri?lij?s/

adjective

[b]relating to or believing in a religion[/b]:
both men were deeply religious, intelligent, and moralistic
religious music
(of a belief or practice) forming part of someone’s thought about or worship of a divine being:
he has strong religious convictions
belonging or relating to a monastic order or other group of people who are united by their practice of religion:
religious houses were built on ancient pagan sites
treated or regarded with a devotion and scrupulousness appropriate to worship:
I have a religious aversion to reading manuals

Ok so. I don't actually practice any form of [i]worship[/i], or adhere to any religious practices or doctrines. So other than a belief in the possibility of a 'god' (and we've bin over that bit before concerning my own particular beliefs), how do you then define me as 'religious'?

I don't belong to any religious order. My beliefs are simply my own beliefs. By your definitions, the 2nd definition you have quoted applies to atheists just as equally, no? Cos according to my copy of the Oxford english dictionary, point 3 states that a religion may be:

A controlling influence on a person's life.

So, I can just as equally claim that if you are an 'atheist', and belive that no god exists, then you are equally as [i]religious[/i] as anyone else. 😉

what is 'out-Elfining'?

In the Fullness of Time, all shall be revealed....

She also thinks the vicar is cool.

I bet all those kids that were abused by catholic priests thought they were cool at one point.

Being different in itself is not a bad thing

bullies normally target the different kids, don't they?

Oh dear. Next you'll be telling us morality didn't exist before the bible.

Oh dear. No I won't.

How are you going to cope?

So, I can just as equally claim that if you are an 'atheist', and belive that no god exists, then you are equally as religious as anyone else

how can not believing provide a controlling influence?

religion is a controlling influence because it provides guidelines to be followed, possibly based on the 10 (or even the original 15) commandments, or it allows you to ignore those guidelines and then repent it all in church later.

All you've done is try to present your onions as the Truth, and rubbish any alternative views.

Is this a fact, or your opinion? lol

See, when you say rubbishing alternative views, I say offering alternative views. If anyone is rubbishing people, calling them arrogant, etc, it would be you, i'm afraid.

Well done you've found a slightly different definition, doesn't make mine wrong. I still think (see opinion, not fact) that if you believe in god then you are religous, even if it IS a religion with only one member. (I shall call it Elfinism) I accept that you think different.

Anyway this is a fairly pointless agument about semantics.

So, I can just as equally claim that if you are an 'atheist', and belive that no god exists, then you are equally as religious as anyone else.

I guess you could, if you wanted, Dawkins certainly presents an almost religous fervour.

I would however describe myself as more of the agnostic persuasion, in that I don't really care either way, as it is pretty much irrelevant to me in my daily life.

i'm just bemused and interested as to why others hold such strong beliefs.

religion is a controlling influence because it provides guidelines to be followed, possibly based on the 10 (or even the original 15) commandments, or it allows you to ignore those guidelines and then repent it all in church later.

Erm, you are aware that's just Christianity, aren't you?

See, when you say rubbishing alternative views, I say offering alternative views. If anyone is rubbishing people, calling them arrogant, etc, it would be you, i'm afraid.

You are wrong, but why are you afraid?

I shall call it Elfinism

It is the only True Way.

Elfinism

It is the only True Way.

You are wrong,[b]in my humble opinion[/b] but why are you afraid?

FTFY 😉

Humble opinion? Elf? 😆

It is the only True Way.

It is. Never before have I heard anyone so versed in the writings of the Greek philosopher testiculees*.

*disclaimer: this may or may not be true as Zulu11 inhabits this forum also.

No, you've broken it.

You are wrong, but why are you afraid?

There you go, fixed it again.

Don't go trying to fiddle with it again please. You'll do yourself a mischief. 😐

It is. Never before have I heard anyone so versed in the writings of the Greek philosopher testiculees*.

Tsk. You can't even do that propperly.

Leave it to those who can in future, eh?

TJ; shut up.

Erm, you are aware that's just Christianity, aren't you?

Erm, is it not Judaism as well?

Notice how I also said possibly?

All hail the mighty elf, Herald of the great prophet testiculees.

Not Judaism, they have like 600 commandments.

Are the ten sayings not separate from those 613 you speak of, known as
"Aseret ha-D'varim", or "Aseret ha-Dibrot"

see http://www.jewfaq.org/10.htm

(let the power of google rein down upon the nay sayers...)

Are the ten sayings not separate from those 613 you speak of

Um...yes?

I was being silly anyway, making sure Elf wasn't wrong.

EDIT - would appear that the 10 are catergories which the 613 fit into (basically)

I haven't paid any attention since like page 4 or whatever, but can we let this die now? Every time I see "Do you believe on god?" on the front page it hurts a little. Or could a mod just change it to "in"? Please?

You are wrong in my humble opinion but why are you afraid?

Fixed it again, you really must be more careful with it! (whether you like it or not, it is your opinion, and not a fact, kid) 😆

And stop rubbishing people while you're at it, play nice. You seem to be the rudest person in the playground tonight.

Anyway, it's time to go to bed, work on the morning. I'm quitting while I'm quite obviously ahead. Goodnight! Xxx

Erm, is it not Judaism as well?

Judaism is quite confuddling to me, although the Ten commandments are part of Jewish doctrine I understand, yes.

Notice how I also said possibly?

Cop out. Do you actually know owt about religions other than the ones popular in't West?

TJ; shut up you totalitarian. Remind me not to respect any of your views on tolerance on here any more.

And you need to do a bit more research into Famous Posts I've made too.

It'll be the gulags for you young elf.......

Fixed it again

No, you've bin silly and broken it once more.

You are wrong, but why are you afraid?

There you go.

And you still jolly well have not answered why you're afraid. Of the Rapture, perhaps? Judgement Day?

I'm quitting while I'm quite obviously wrong and cannot ever be right.

FTFY. 8)

Don't understand what you mean by cop out, it was just you misreading what I said.

Don't understand

I know, it's quite obvious really. 😐

Like a god with a bone!

bullies normally target the different kids, don't they?

Are you suggesting that the answer to bullying is for the victims to try harder to fit in?

tyredbiker - Member

Good morning! Chewkw, Ive never really thought about there being multiple gods no but I wouldn't argue against anyone believing as such. I have been taught about other religions including religions where deities create the universe/world 'accidentally' (I'm a young'un so relatively recently too), but not immersed myself in them and consequently my use of vocabulary reflects such. I would be open to learn more.

I believe in the notion of multiple gods. I oppose the notion of "creator god" because that is simply not plausible because the reasoning they provide are not possible. Many simply accept what has been taught to them or just do as told. This is not the way to understand nor the way to progress.

As for the lesson that you were taught about "where deities create the universe/world 'accidentally'" that explanation is also wrong because it implies that deities can create universe/word. They cannot as simple as that. Perhaps a better explanation would be the coincidental appearance of a "universe/word" system when the deity (the first one) appeared at that moment mistakenly thought that he had created the world. Hence, cherished in the thought that he was the creator. This deity later found* that it was Wrong View and that there were other explanations beyond his understanding at time.

*someone explained to him and he is not creator god. 😀

Maybe. But if a belief can give someone comfort when in time of need, who am I (or anybody) to take it away?

Yes, that's precisely what one can do to help oneself. i.e. dependent on self. The journey is our own and the path is ours. Even deities once walked the path themselves like we do to become who they are now ...

I can't remember whether I believed in an 'afterlife' before, but since my boyfriend died I hope more than anything, that I will see him again. Whether you deem it a misguided hope, clutching at a security blanket or nonsense, it's mine and it helps me get through the day, because otherwise I would have given up a long time ago.

The choice is yours. i.e. you either consider afterlife or simply turning into carbon/fertiliser at the end of this life. I believe in life beyond my present life but I do not believe in 'reincarnation' (<- Wrong View). The term 'reincarnation' means I can carry on my present memory into my future life which again is considered as Wrong View. As for turning into carbon that's inevitable as we have limited lifespan and our body can only sustain us for so long. As for seeing your boyfriend again that depends on your past and present lives but the future is just a probability.

Nothing misguided there for holding strong to get yourself over an event. Even asking deities/gods (not the creator god) for help is fine and regardless of the deities/gods - all denominations as they will normally take pity on us.

One thing that is certain is that we have to walk our own path and that whatever we do we are accountable and NO deities/gods can change that. Especially NOT creator god. Walk the wrong path and you suffer for it and walk the right path you lessen your suffering. Yes, lessen your suffering as even being deities/gods are not spared the suffering as their lives are not permanent and that one day they too will die and start again ... until such time as they find the way out. No, they don't change into or promoted to become a creator god.

🙂

Mrs Toast - Member

No, I don't believe. But if I did, I'd rather worship the Norse, Egyptian or Greek pantheons. There's a bit more variety, less women-hating and just as believable.

There are more variety than the ones you have listed and you can call them deities too or gods. They are all there to assure us.

🙂

Someone mentioned the "devil" ...

Three ways of interpretation:

1. There is actually a real devil. i.e. the common understanding of satan.

2. It's a matter of mind.

3. A bit of both above.

One of the explanation is that he is NOT a fallen angel nor does he reside in hell. He is in fact a very high level angel, higher than many deities, who become attach to Wrong Views and started to abuse his position.

Yes, he tends to mess about etc but eventually he will meet the real hell (some say it's a state of mind) and suffer for it.

🙂

Someone mentioned the "devil" ...

Four ways of interpretation:

1. There is actually a real devil. i.e. the common understanding of satan.

2. It's a matter of mind.

3. A bit of both above.

4. It's made up to scare people into doing what others want them to do.

That's better.

tree-magnet - Member

4. It's made up to scare people into doing what others want them to do.

That's better.

But are you being scared?

Aren't you scare of your own mind?

🙂

Not really. It's the same as saying the bogeyman lives under your bed and will eat your foot if you put it out of the duvet. I believed it as a child, but that doesn't mean it exists.

tree-magnet - Member

Not really. It's the same as saying the bogeyman lives under your bed and will eat your foot if you put it out of the duvet. I believed it as a child, but that doesn't mean it exists.

LOL! My little nephew once said to my mum "why is that man with red eyes staring at me?" Mum checked but nobody there ... 😯

One thing that is certain is that we have to walk our own path and that whatever we do we are accountable and NO deities/gods can change that. Especially NOT creator god. Walk the wrong path and you suffer for it and walk the right path you lessen your suffering. Yes, lessen your suffering as even being deities/gods are not spared the suffering as their lives are not permanent and that one day they too will die and start again ... until such time as they find the way out. No, they don't change into or promoted to become a creator god.

Obviously this is just your opinion, however you seem to have presented it as some kind of 'truth'

I think chew is still playing this.
[img] [/img]

i've given up believing in anything, everything is a figment of my warped imagination. Now where are my pills 8)

"Atheism is a crutch for those who cannot bear the reality of God"

(Tom Stoppard)

"God is a crutch for those who cannot bear the reality of atheism"

One of the explanation is that he is NOT a fallen angel nor does he reside in hell. He is in fact a very high level angel, higher than many deities, who become attach to Wrong Views and started to abuse his position.

In the Hebrew bible 'The Satan' was sent, by God, to test man's faith. If they failed the loving God would punish them.

Here's 10 Minutes for you all to sit down and listen to on friday
[url] http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b014gk72 [/url]

John Gray argues that the scientific and rationalist attack on religion is misguided. Extreme atheists do not realise that for most people across the globe, religion is not generally about personal belief. Instead, "Practice - ritual, meditation, a way of life - is what counts." Central to religion is the power of myth, which still speaks to the contemporary mind. "The idea that science can enable us to live without myths is one of these silly modern stories." In fact, he argues, science has created its own myth, "chief among them the myth of salvation through science....The idea that humans will rise from the dead may be incredible" he says, "but no more so than the notion that humanity can use science to remake the world"

Sounds pretty much spot on to me.

In the Hebrew bible 'The Satan' was sent, by God, to test man's faith. If they failed the loving God would punish them.

Deservedly so.

Do I believe in god? Hell No!

Haven't believed since I was a child, despite a fairly strict catholic upbringing. Convent school education (raised by nuns a la Tarzan), mass once a week, the works. Heck, I was even an alter boy for a short stint before getting the heave-ho for taking the piss with the bell ringing and blowing out thecandles mid-mass 😆

Man created god(s).

[i]Extreme atheists do not realise that for most people across the globe....[/i]

Again with the numpty definition of atheists, what's an extreme atheist? Is it someone who really really doesn't believe?

Theists are desperate to ascribe properties or gaps in knowledge or attitudes to atheists because their arguments are intellectually bankrupt.

To be fair that was written by someone at the beeb, Gray's work mostly criticizes humanism rather than atheists as a whole.

Euro - Member

"In the Hebrew bible 'The Satan' was sent, by God, to test man's faith. If they failed the loving God would punish them."

Deservedly so.

Surely that's entrapment?

I don't believe in God. And some of the Science stuff doesn't make sense to me either. So, i'll just wander along and get on with my life, and maybe one day, I'll find out what the craic is with it all!. In the mean time, there's much more important things to be worrying about.

[i]Again with the numpty definition of atheists, what's an extreme atheist? Is it someone who really really doesn't believe?

Theists are desperate to ascribe properties or gaps in knowledge or attitudes to atheists because their arguments are intellectually bankrupt.[/i]

I suggest you might want to read up on John Gray before ascribing the terms numpty or theist in relation to him 🙂

Surely that's entrapment?

No, Sean Connery was in that and that Welsh bird. Don't remember seeing God.

http://newhumanist.org.uk/1423/through-the-looking-glass

I'm not the only person to think he's a numpty.

Gray dismisses rationism and promotes the substitution of one dangerous myth with another.

Theists are desperate to ascribe properties or gaps in knowledge or attitudes to atheists because their arguments are intellectually bankrupt.

Spot on.

See also Elf and hilldogers attempts at simultaneous cake retention/digestion.

@ Crikey, great link thanks for sharing, especially liked this:

As to the weary old canard about the 20th-century totalitarianisms: it astonishes me how those who should know better can fail to see them as quintessentially counter-Enlightenment projects, and ones which the rest of the Enlightenment-derived world would not put up with and therefore defeated: Nazism in 17 years and Soviet communism in 70. They were counter-Enlightenment projects because they rejected the idea of pluralism and its concomitant liberties of thought and the person, and in the time-honoured unEnlightened way forcibly demanded submission to a monolithic ideal. They even used the forms and techniques of religion, from the notion of thought-crime to the embalming of saints in mausoleums (Lenin and Mao, like any number of saints and their relics, invite pilgrimage to their glass cases). Totalitarianism is not about progress but stasis; it is not about realising a golden age but coercively sustaining the myth of one. This indeed is the lineament of religion: it is the opposite of secular progressivism.

Wow - quite some debate. Given that these questions have been asked for 1000s of years it is hardly surprising that STW can make 8 pages. But sad to see insults flying around. Faith by definition is a personal thing and I am not sure there is a place for dogma on either side.

I like Bertrand Russell's personal conclusions on this on-going debate:

"Science tells us what we can know, but what we can know is little, and if we forget how much we cannot know we become insensitive to many things of great importance...

...Theology, on the other hand, induces a dogmatic belief that we have knowledge where in fact we have ignorance, and by doing so generates a kind of impertinent insolence towards the universe...

...Almost all the questions of most interest to speculative minds are such that science cannot answer, and the confident answers of the theologians no longer seem so convincing as they did in former centuries."

We therefore live in no-man's land between the claims of definite knowledge of the scientists and the dogma of the theologians - welcome, in Russell's mind, to the world of philosophy!!

Faith by definition is a personal thing

Not in the world we live in.

Explain Lifer?

My comment was meant to mean that because it is a personal thing (either way), we should be tolerant to each other's views on the matter. I appreciate that this idea is not always shared on both sides of the argument. Is this what you mean?

Explain Lifer?

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

But sad to see insults flying around

unless they are directed at Elfin, obviously...

The universe is such an amazing, astounding, fantastic, scary, brilliant thing already. There isn't any need to bring in any sky fairies into it. Enjoy it as it is. Oh, and go out on your bike more.

Or the FSM will *not* touch you with his noodly appendage.

Man created [b]g[/b]od(s).

But only after [b]G[/b]od created man first.