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Wondered if the STW population could confirm if this is normal.
My girl friend’s sister rolled her car nearly two months ago. Thankfully no one was hurt, including herself. She was driving quickly, although within the speed limit and clipped the edge of the road. She managed to clear the opposite lane and land in the field on the other side of the road. No other cars were involved, only people there saw it happen from a distance and stopped to help. This happened on a country road.
She was breathalysed at the time – zero alcohol in her system. The police took no further action other than a sound telling off. We think she may have been tired (was coming home from a late shift at the bar she works) and although inside the limit, maybe driving a little too fast for her experience/ability. She’d been driving for just less than a year.
Today she received a letter informing her that she had to pay £165 and attend a Driving Awareness Course or face court proceedings. This wasn’t mentioned at the time of the crash by the officers who attended, or by anyone else such as her insurance company etc.
Is it normal in her circumstances to receive such a letter without notice/warning? I’m guessing it has something to do with the fact she hadn’t been driving for a year? I can understand educating drivers to slow down/take more care when driving, I just wondered about it never being mentioned at any point.
What are the charges relating to the court proceedings?
She's not awake at the minute to ask, but I'm sure it was Dangerous Driving/Driving without due care or along those lines.
If it was only 2 months ago, theres little she can do.
I can't believe that she wasn't verbally warned at the scene (it doesnt need to be in writing) that she would be reported for any offences.
The police then have a reasonable time to lodge proceedings before the court (and a court might view up to 2 years a reasonalbe).
The confusion arises when the police don't caution someone at the scene, they only have a limited time to put in writing the warning that they will (read may) report the person. This is I believe called the NIP. (Notice of Intended Prosecution).
So essentially, if she was verbally warned, any action will hang over her head for a long time. If not, then the police have 14 days to write and warn so. The idea is it allows people to gather evidence, and if warned at the scene, then people know immediately to do so, and by writing, they have sufficient warning before evidence useful to a defence is destroyed.
If she says she wasn't warned, she might just not have realised what was being said or the importance of same. This is quite ususal.
As its a criminal offence, its nothing to do with the insurer. They only deal with the civil matters arrising as a result of their olbigation under the Road Traffic Act to compensate third parties for her negligence in civil law, not for specific offences under criminal law of say driving without due care.
Oh right. She never said she was cautioned, in fact she was certain she wasn't when she opened the letter this morning. I can imagine it being something she's perhaps forgotten though. She was pretty shaken up at the time so it'd make sense.
I just always thought you'd be warned at the time that this could action they take.
Does seem harsh though. She was an emotional mess after the accident and she's certainly a different person in the car now. Guess it's difficult/impossible to treat everyone as an individual in these instances.
Thanks for the information.
Hope she is ok.. sounds like a bad crash...
Your question though, is this standard procedure for anyone that has an accident or gets stopped for something like speeding within a set period of time after passing their test?
Sorry cant help further...
Thank God she had no passengers and didn't hit a pedestrian or a cyclist, it might have had a different ending.
We had a similar case just up the road two years ago; young driver (20) going too fast, rolls car over the wall. His front passenger, also 20, was found dead in the field with the windscreen around his neck and the driver and the two other lads were all compacted into the back seat with multiple major fractures, femurs, pelvises etc. That's at least two young lives ruined.
Rickeister - She ok now. As I said very shaken up at the time.
Globalti - can't agree more. She said herself that at least it didn't happen 20 seconds later as the cars that stopped to help her probably would have been involved in the worst way. I've lost 2 friends (both fairly young) to dangerous driving. If nothing else, at least no one was hurt and she's cetainly changed the way she drives which can only be a good thing.
2 options then, go to court or pay up? Suppose by paying up she's accepting the claim of dangerous driving etc! However it seems a bit harsh to me!
£165 seems a bit steep - I am sure I only paid £80ish.
For £80ish it might even be worth just going on the course as there are a few things you might learn.
She managed to clear the opposite lane and land in the field on the other side of the road.
that is one heck of a clip!
When she thought she was within the speed limit are you sure that the speedo hadn't actually looped right round again?
I hit the grass verge on a twisty, narrow country lane once, on a left hand curve with a driveway coming out at the apex of the curve, at night.
The oncoming cars lights flooded the driveway so I couldn't see its deep, grass verge boundaries - and I hit the corner of it.
This sent my little Polo upwards on a small flight before coming down again, but I certainly got nowhere near clearing the opposite lane.
I was probably doing 40-45mph, in a small, lightish car.
Sounds to me like it might be money well spent, and a better outcome for your friend than points and fines.
Sounds like she's getting off lightly, £165 for dangerous driving isn't much.
She's going to pay the fine and take the course. Seems the sensible way. I just hadn't realised you could be followed up in this way. Still, learn something new everyday.
TurnerGuy - You should have seen the car afterwards! I'm not sure how she walked away. She had to crawl through the rear windscreen to get out. Her parents quized her as to her speed as they (actually most of us) thought she might have been going allot faster than she said, but she was sure she was within the limit. Academic now I guess. She does seem to have learnt, albeit the hard way....fourtunately it was at the cost of a new car, not someone's life.
Hels - I think that's what she's woken up to realise this morning.
allthepies - it does seem that way now.
I'd hazard it's "without due care or attention" or "careless" rather than "dangerous".
Still, as we all say, it was just a car. Could have been a lot worse.
It will be DD - careless driving is the only offence that this course is for.
(It's a different course to the speeding one).
In all honesty, she should look at this as money well spent. If she pays attention, she'll not end up with another horrific smash.
As stated in the original post, inexperience/inability led to this, and without further training (what went wrong? why did it go wrong? how will you prevent this again?) there's a potentially dangerous driver on the road.
She's not getting points for it, so although it seems steep to pay £165, it's frankly a bit of a bargain. She'll be attending a Driver Alertness Course, which takes a whole day and has on-road training rather than the classroom sessions you get with the Speed Awareness course.
She will need to show improvement in her driving to pass the course (which she will, everyone does) and she'll then be informed following the course that the police will be taking no further action.
Cheers Nick, there's some useful info on that link.
I'd go to court.
1) They have to provide a NIP within 14 days. This was not done. There is no case, chances are that the clerk will move to throw it out of court before she ever steps foot in a courtroom.
2) If procedure was followed and she's simply forgotten, they're still going to have a hard time proving anything when there's no witnesses.
At the very, very least, I'd suggest asking for advice on http://www.pepipoo.com/ before committing to a course of action either way. Fixed penalties are quick wins because they rely on people's fear of going to court; it's easier for both parties but it's not always fair or just.
(ObDisclaimer, I Am Not A Lawyer, etc.)
i had to do one of these courses back in '98, (was £110 then!) 2 day course, first day largely theory in the morning with an assessed drive in the avo, second day a longer drive after previous theory session, was a lot of it based on awareness, drive past a road sign and the instructor would ask 'what was that sign' its like looking at a watch, you look at it, see the time, but if someone asks you seconds later the time, you have to look again as you read it but didnt take it in!!
is a good course really, and common practise for anyone caught speeding, driving without due care or the cause of an accident, they normally show you some horrific road crash pictures!
i had to attend as grumpy old man decided to jump out in the road infront of me (in my old and much loved 309 gti, was in 2nd, 35mph, greasy private road on way to house), slammed on brakes and locked up, he accused me of doing 60, running an old lady over and handbrake turning into my driveway! - would have been awesome if i had!! apart from the old lady bit! but she was already sat on the floor before i got to her!
police guy came around for a statement claiming to have measured skid marks in the road etc. but was not willing to walk with me up the road to show me - 400yards! so had to make note on the paperwork of such and as was no proof of such no charge could be made, so driver awareness course was offered,at the time i didnt want to fight it in court, saw no point, - there were 2 of us on the course that hadnt caused an accident as such, the other guy overtook a slow car the wrong side of a bollard in the middle of the road, and the driver of the other car flagged down a police car and reported him!!
is a common course and despite what you think you Do learn a fair amount from them,
your GF's sister is lucky as if she gains 6 or more points in the first 2 years of driving can be made to resit her test!
1) They have to provide a NIP within 14 days. This was not done. There is no case, chances are that the clerk will move to throw it out of court before she ever steps foot in a courtroom.
Not when she's had a crash they don't.
I'd go to court.1) They have to provide a NIP within 14 days. This was not done. There is no case, chances are that the clerk will move to throw it out of court before she ever steps foot in a courtroom.
2) If procedure was followed and she's simply forgotten, they're still going to have a hard time proving anything when there's no witnesses.
Fair enough, but even if she wins, she'll still be in a position where she's not really sure how the accident occured nor what she could have done to prevent it, if I'm reading the original post correctly. So a bit of additional training would be no bad thing, perhaps, even if involuntary.
she crashed and has to pay £165 for a driving course. Who cares if you can dispute it she should go do it. Even though no one else was injured careless/inexperienced driving like this are why insurance premiums for people my age are so high and so many people die. She was not only lucky but insanely lucky to survive, let alone walk away.
You should send her on a skid pan course aswell, around £150 and well worth it also.
I can see the reasoning behind going to court, it was my initail thinking that she was maybe being a bit hard done by. Seems my thinking was incorrect and it does now make sense.
However I think Nick talks some sense about not knowing or really being sure how the accident happened in the first place.
I'm glad this place exists, even if it is just to help out people like you t-obias.
Seems my thinking was incorrect and it does now make sense.
What a great post.
How so Yeti?
You came here.
You said something stupid.
You've realised your error.
You've admitted it.
Beautiful.
I'd go to court.1) They have to provide a NIP within 14 days. This was not done. There is no case, chances are that the clerk will move to throw it out of court before she ever steps foot in a courtroom.
2) If procedure was followed and she's simply forgotten, they're still going to have a hard time proving anything when there's no witnesses.
At the very, very least, I'd suggest asking for advice on http://www.pepipoo.com/ before committing to a course of action either way. Fixed penalties are quick wins because they rely on people's fear of going to court; it's easier for both parties but it's not always fair or just.
(ObDisclaimer, I Am Not A Lawyer, etc.)
I did post right at the top, that a verbal NIP can be delivered at the scene by a police officer, it's only latterly done by letter if one isn't done so. For example, if she was taken to hospital, or not at the scene for other reasons, or her role in the offence isn't immediately clear.
A court is going to accept a police officers statement he delivered a NIP. I imagine there were probably 2 at the scene, and one will be the others witness. Even if one was speaking to one driver, the other speaking to witnesses, they will have seen/examined each others notebooks when compiling a report.
And as for asking for advice, well thats fair enough. But essentially she has lost control, crossed lanes of traffic, ending up in a field after potentially smashin through a wall/hedgerow, and totalling the car to such an extent she had to crawl through the rear window.
The next time a "loophole" comes careering through the traffic at you, you have no sympathy from me. It could have been a robins face! As she is such a new driver, she is frankly very lucky to be offered a course. It could have been 6 points for DWODCA, and as a new driver, losing her licence pending an extended retest.
I suspect if she hadn't been a distressed female, but a chav in a modded corsa with a bunch of lads in the car, the latter option would have been employed.
You should send her on a skid pan course aswell, around £150 and well worth it also.
+1
although they might use old rear wheel drive cars whereas most people drive front wheel drive cars. Always leaves you wondering about how the fwd car would handle differently.
Just to be clear, I didn't ask the initial question to see if there was a way out of the fine and course, or even the court procedings. I only asked as I wasn't sure if it was normal to not hear anything for nearly 2 months, or be warned/informed at the time that this course of action will be taken. I had previously thought there was a shorter time limit to these things.
No doubting she's lucky as a new driver to be offered the chance of the course rather than straight points. She nearly killed herself and could have taken others with her.
Glad to hear she is ok. It sounds like she is doing the best thing by going on the course.
A friend of mine rolled his renault 5 turbo in a similar way, but he was speeding and clipped a curb / verge on a back lane rolled the car through a hedge, he had no seat belt on and his shoulders went through the sunroof and he was then thrown out through the back window. The police found the car then him about 20 metres away from it in the field. He went to A&E but walked out 2 hours later, very very lucky! He lost his liscence for 12 months because of it though.
It doesnt take that much to send a car flying through the air. They may indeed not have been speeding, but 59mph would still have been enough to send it a fair old distance.
Good decision to do the course.
The Southern Yeti - MemberYou came here.
You said something stupid.
You've realised your error.
You've admitted it.Beautiful.
But it's not the STW way!!!
If your car is not properly under control around me, I'll kick it in the face until it stops eating my picnic. 😆
This thread is a perfect embodiment of the STW Forum.
A post from someone asking for legal advice from a website populated in the main by IT professionals. A few intelligent, well meaning responses from people that don't really know what they are talking about but are very good with google. The odd utterly moronic comment. Deep mistrust that any police officer could be intelligent enough to ever do anything correctly. And a couple of posts from someone that knows exactly what he is talking about but is largely ignored.
In summary:
The caution, a notice of intended prosecution and "a caution" are all completely different things. The driver would have been cautioned prior to giving her account of the incident which would have been recorded and probably signed by her at the time. A NIP only applies to certain traffic offences and can be given in writing within 14 days or by a police officer at the scene verbally. However it does not apply when there has been a collision. So it makes absolutely no difference in this case. Cougar you should think about becoming a legal rep. If you have managed to flip a car over in to a field completely clearing the opposite carriageway it's not hard to see that your driving standards may have slipped slightly. It probably wouldn't take HD CCTV footage, CSI style forensic analysis and the witness statement of a high court judge to get this lady convicted of careless driving. Unless of course the magistrate(s) are clinically retarded.
Plus the course she is going on is a LOT more useful than the stupid speeding awareness ones they send people on.
[i]I'd go to court.[/i]
Sounds sensible, face a possible fine/points/ban etc or take a course that might help her drive safer/better...
FYIW I did a speed awareness course at the weekend - just classroom. Scary bit was the number of folk who didn't even know the speed limits. Plus how old we all were...
Did the plod at scene complete a Road Traffic booklet? If so, request a copy. You should fill in a section where if applicable you interview the driver (ie your sister) about what happened, it will be under caution and they will write out the interview word for word, she will then sign it. At the end they will say the spiel about you may be prosecuted, it's goes to another department who will assess and decide if prosection required (that's if it isn't traffic plod who attended, as you may just get local uniform bobby). She will sign it to say yup that's what happened and what she said. Maybe if she's shocked she has forgotten what happened and what plod said to her!?