I blame the parents.

Difficult one. Once they become adults you've got to hope you've steered them in the right direction and a lot of bad 'uns come good with the right support.

Give her time mate, 19's only young.

Chekwkw I think that's very inappropriate and you should remove your post in the 14 minutes you have left, highly offensive for gods sake have some empathy with the poor bloke.

Can't advise ton sorry, mine are 3 and 7 so I'm still in the non rebellious stages, but good luck and I hope it works out for the good.

Has she always shown signs of being like this? If so, you might look up oppositional defiant disorder, conduct disorder, and antisocial behaviour disorder.

It could be that she is not entirely in control of her own responses.

Really feel for you. As the dad of a pair of young'uns, this is probably one of my biggest paranoid parent fears. I don't know what to suggest, but whatever you do, good luck. (I suspect chinning her wouldn't end well though, however deserved 😉 )

Sorry to hear this ton - awful thing for a parent

As always seek professional help

My aunt and uncle have had a similar thing with my cousin. It was first manifested itself through an eating disorder and quickly spiralled into drugs, theft and other self-destruct mechanisms. Sorry to say that despite a lot of help, 30 years later the problems remain although more manageable.

At one stage they were advised to cut their daughter of completely. A nightmare scenario and one that required wider family support ie we could help her when she cam trying to ask for help/steal off us

I was tempted not to respond as my Aunt and Uncles experience has been desperate - they lost a son to injuries from a MTB accident too - but I chose to respond for three reasons

1. Sympathy and genuine best wishes
2. Advice FWIW to get proper professional help early
3. Think medium term - it could be a phase that is controllable more easily at this stage. I know this is obvious but it gets MUCH harder if it goes on into 20-30s

Very best of luck

Not odd. Sounds like you are being really sensible in a tough situation. 19 is still young.

I'm sure you've mentioned not her before Ton it's an awful situation to be in as she is your daughter. It sounds to me like she has some issues going on that you may need her help to address that isn't going to be easy to do and it is possibly mental health issues.

Best of luck to you and thoughts with you.

Apology Ton with my response above.

I am not trying to be unsympathetic there but just that it happened to us and I am not sure how to describe the situation nicely ...

[b]Chewkw[/b] - inappropriate. post reported.

[b]Ton[/b] - we are kind of used to the idea boys grow up, become feral, nasty, perhaps on the edges of the law and drugs, but usually, usually come back to sense by the time they are 25 ish, and then turn out to be fairly strict parents themselves.

But it must be so much more difficult with a girl, and girls play the game at a higher level. Other than warn family and friends, and ask them not to give her money or believe her, so she has to find a different way to live and cannot lie and scam her way through life, I don't know... I'd be changing the locks. 🙁

Stoatsbrother - Member
Chewkw - inappropriate. post reported.

What happened to my cousin is exactly that. It is real.

Not created by me nor a story that I have made up just to wind people up.

I have apologised to Ton for my description but that is our personal experience and I am telling as I know how.

must be awful for you, sympathies. I agree that 19's only young,

it's hard trying to find out who you are, what you're doing, what you're supposed to be...easy to get into behaviour that's destructive and obliterating...Any nuetrals that you could both trust to have a conversation "through"?

best of luck.

Sounds rough. Try to hate what she's doing, and not to hate her so much. Sounds like so many of us as teenagers until we found our directions, though few of us acted up and were spiteful. You'll get through it, but if it's as tough as it seems, don't be afraid to seek outside help, though I'm not sure which agency wants to deal with over 18s.

[b]chewkh[/b]posts crossed, glad you apologised. Not every thing true is useful or appropriate to say to a man in pain looking for hope.

'I love him because he's my son, but I hate him as a person' were the words out my Mrs mouth when the boy was 19, he's 25 now and just finished uni and on course for a good grade so don't give up hope,
But don't be taken for a mug either.. Good luck.

Went/going through a similar situation, twin boys turned 18 last week, 1 fantastic to be around, pleasant, now doing a college course and supplementing it with part time work at local supermarket, do anything for anyone...the other, hmmm, strangled his Mother to the point of unconsciousness, threw her and his brother down the stairs, extremely aggressive and had to be removed to Foster care at age 15. Although the aggression now seems to have disappeared, he lies excessively, even about minor minor things where he knows he will be found out, is short and snappy all the time and not just with his parents, but it seems most people (other than 2-3 core friends who are seem to be the local 'bad' boys). Caught him stealing many a time, cant reason with him - he is now attending a course where he gets a bursery for going, though there is no qualification at the end, has no qualifications (bunked off school for the final year) and absolutely no intention of getting a job 🙁
What to do? I dont know, they are your flesh and blood and I think you need to be there for them 'almost' to the point of no matter what. You can let them know you are not pleased with their attitude etc or whatever it is but ensure they know that you do really still love them - there could be allsorts going on in her head, or in the background (we have suspicions our son is gay and is 'scared' to come out - it would explain a few things if I'm honest). I think we just muddle along with it, he knows he is loved, and we will do what we can to help him, but he also knows we are no pushover and we disapprove of lots of the things he has done.
Feel for you, horrible situation, happy to go into a bit more detail in pm if you think it may help..

My son is 18, if I had my life to live again I'd ask to fast forward the last four years. T'ain't easy. But he's doing fine, even if I've found it demoralising. I'm hoping things improve when he leaves. *ticks another day off*

I think Chewkw's post is appropriate. A good friends's sister who kindly put us up for a week related her youthful excesses to us over dinner. The bottom line was that she had picked up AIDs, and is no longer with us. With that in mind I've been errr "firm" with junior on some points.

On the financial front I'll keep bankrolling his lifestyle but on the basis of receipts.

Don't give up, Ton. And don't get too heavy either. Madame keeps asking me to "faire le dos rond". Which roughly translated means being shat on and not complaining about the smell. I stink.

khani's post above gives some hope.

But I think you've illustrated the fears of many of the STW parents of toddlers, young teens etc. ie that no matter what value we try to instil (and I guess we all try to work in roughly the same ones), some of them will go off the rails and give you sleepless nights. At least she's only 19 - there's plenty of time for her to turn things around - but I think you guys need to find out what's going on with her rather than being a safety net and a laundry service.

Best of luck and hope for a good outcome.

i would have knocked her senseless

i fear that i will chin her

You know, I think maybe you (as a family unit) need to find a way of communicating that doesn't include anger and threats.

Set some boundaries re the disrespectful behaviour, and be respectful yourself. Make sure you & your wife stand firm and together, otherwise she will exploit any disagreement between you. For example, decide with your wife how much money, if any, you're giving her, then ensure both of you stick to it. Don't enable her by picking her dirty clothes off the floor. She's old enough to use a washing machine.

And another thing, where is her home? It seems that at the moment she has at least two. If she is to live in your home, then the respectful thing to do would be to tell you when you can expect her back, if she's going out.

As for the stealing, tell her calmly that if she steals from you again, you will call the police. And then do it!

She might not like these boundaries, but it seems like she is aimless and lost. I think she needs some tough love, and will (secretly) appreciate it.

Echo above, awful situation.

Ex Mrs Houns eldest lad who's 15 is turning in to his dad who is a psychopath. It was horrible to see and I didn't cope with it (nor is she). Thing was he is a good intelligent lad but it's like Jekyll and Hyde.

I'd suggest (obvious assume already done so) talking to her about it. Not screaming and shouting but talking. Take her out, to the pub, sit down as adults over a pint and talk, tell her you love her but you're scared of what is happening to her, ask her if you can help and ask if she wants help getting help.
There may be many underlying causes of her behavior but she needs to know that she's loved and that you want to help

I can offer nothing other than sympathy (as we have cats instead of children and even they keep me up at night sometimes).

One thing I forgot - try to dislike her behaviour not her - unconditional love may be difficult but its important

All,

I have apologised to Ton.

I have emailed Ton to offer my apology.

I know I might have expressed myself too directly because of my own experience and thought that is the way to describe the situation.

There is No intention to make light of the situation.

Apart from Ton who I have apologised via email, if you think my comment is also inappropriate to you then I apologise to you too.

I apologise to the following STW members for my comments:

Stoatsbrother
Edukator

p/s: Edukator - My uncle passed away about a month ago after so many years of worry so I am not making light of the situation.

Can't comment from a parents perspective (kid free, plan to stay that way), but when I was 19 I had a similarly atrocious lack of resection for parents and family and was generally a right cant with a very poor relationship with my folks (trouble with police, drugs and most other things you can imagine - although I never thieved off them). However by my mid 20's I'd grown up and matured and started to rebuild the relationship with them. Took Iong while for them to trust me again, but by my 30's id never been closer to them. I guess what I'm saying is, people do change as they grow up. Don't abandone all hope just yet. At the end of the day, you can only do what you can do - you choose your friends l, not your family unfortunately

I was horrid at 19. I was also on drugs (weed/speed habit).
I was doing nothing. My dad had enough and asked me to leave. I did all the stealing money, ditching jobs etc.

Looking at it as a 32 year old I found (and still do) my old man cold. I was misunderstood, I just wanted to be listened to.

My dad did the tough love thing and left me to get on with it and offered no financial help but would check to see I was still alive.

Took me until I was 21 to see the light, knuckle down and make something of myself.

I think tough love works. Just feel I needed a bit more of the said love.

Make sure she's safe and warm and listen/advise but do nothing else I think, that includes money, washing etc.

Good luck.

I've seen something similar in my wife's family - her cousins kids. Grew up, to be fair in challenging circumstances - lost father at young age, mother wasn't much of a disciplinarian and used to let them have their own way, didn't create boundaries, they basically ran riot in their later teenage years and into their early 20's, pretty selfish and unpleasant. However stick in there because from a combination of the parent being there all the time for them despite their behaviour, and a bit of growing up of their own (and a few big disappointments and let down's in their lives) they seem to have straightened themselves out and are all normal likeable people now. Maybe it's part of the natural growing process.

I guess as parents there comes a point where we are no longer the only or main influence in our kids lives and they may allow themselves to be influenced by other outside sources and behave in a way parents might not like or approve of. But we have no choice but to always be there for them and let them find their own way. I think it's OK not to like them from time to time, as long as you're always there for them.

Mine are 6 and 9 and i'm sh1t scared of them growing up.

You see that Houns despite all your worries you are a wonderful person, but we knew that & you need to understand it as well.

I have a fair few issues with my life & family but this place really does help you get through things.

Lets all be thankful for our disparate lives but shared humanity.

I was a total arsehole when I was 19 and look at me now.........OK maybe not.

As above she's young you may well need to seek help but giving up on her us not going to make it easier for her to turn it around

chewkw, i have got your email, i didnt see your initial post, i was out with the dog.

hebdencyclist, i have never threaghtened her with either, these are just my thoughs.

me and my daughter have got to the stage where we dont even talk, i dont suffer fools, my wife is a bit softer, my daughter realises this. my wife keeps tabs on her via text.

thanks for all the comments and advice everyone.

MrOvershoot well said, when this place is good its great to be here

Houns read yer earlier post stick in there fella your a decent guy nothing stays the same forever especially the crap stuff

ton Kids eh ..I feel your pain three daughters here ,oldest 16 teenage meltdowns are a regular occurrence in this household nothing major but sometimes difficult to feel that love you have for them admittedly its mellowed slightly in the past year but im not holding my breath they remain that way ...19 is still young she'll grow up ..hopefully

Tough love
Don't wash their clothes
Don't lend them money
Don't give them money
Don't pay for mobile phones
Don't feed them
Don't give them a roof over their heads if they steal from you
Don't go down the nick if the police have them
Don't hit them
Don't shout at them
Don't do anything for them
They will sort themselves out
None of the above means you don't love them

Just read your last post
Don't text them -

@thm - you mention professional help - can you elucidate a bit more on what you mean? I am in a similar - but less serious -position, and the problem is that of course my daughter does not want to get help with the issues that lead her to behave in this way, and I'm not sure what resources exist to help me to interact with her.

Sorry if this is a bit of a hijack.

They will sort themselves out
None of the above means you don't love them

And if they don't - don't have the resources to get the better of their problems - how far are you wiliing to watch them sink? homelessness? drugs? prostitution?

My two penneth....I understand that comms between you are irretrievably destroyed, but clearly an adult guiding hand would be helpful.

Do you have a family friend or relative who she likes and respects who could possibly meet her and try and mentor her through this stage? Obviously no guarantees, but I could never speak to my parents when I went through a bad teenage phase, but there were people I would speak to.

Hi ton, sorry I don't have anything to suggest over and above what's been suggested above, but wanted to offer my sympathy. Could you perhaps get family counselling or someone to mediate a discussion between you?

Tough love
Don't wash their clothes
Don't lend them money
Don't give them money
Don't pay for mobile phones
Don't feed them
Don't give them a roof over their heads if they steal from you
Don't go down the nick if the police have them
Don't hit them
Don't shout at them
Don't do anything for them
They will sort themselves out
None of the above means you don't love them

FROM EXPERIENCE OF FREINDS KIDS, THAT ABOVE IS THE BEST ADVICE.She is useing you as a crutch to support her way of life, remove the crutch and she will soon relearn to walk

time is a great healer as is her getting pregnant and having a kid also the more you give the more they want, dont give, just listen ,otherwise it will destroy you and your family

All,

I have apologised to Ton.

I have emailed Ton to offer my apology.

I know I might have expressed myself too directly because of my own experience and thought that is the way to describe the situation.

There is No intention to make light of the situation.

Apart from Ton who I have apologised via email, if you think my comment is also inappropriate to you then I apologise to you too.

I apologise to the following STW members for my comments:

Stoatsbrother
Edukator

p/s: Edukator - My uncle passed away about a month ago after so many years of worry so I am not making light of the situation.

You're a complete idiot sometimes Chewy - but not many would post an actual apology. Tons one of the people on here, who deserves one.

That's really tough, Ton.

But it's important not to let this cause a rift between you and Mrs Ton, when you have different approaches to the situation. Neither of you are right or wrong, just trying to do the best for your daughter.

DrJ I get your point but with all due respect have you got any experience of this? I was fortunate/unfortunate to witness tough love in its extreme as an acquaintice of mine from Newcastle (a less than pleasant individual who could best be described as cruel but fair) let his 19 year old son get battered in a pub in Heaton in front of him (his son expected him to step in and save his arse) my acquaintice stopped two bouncers stepping in - when it finished he picked him up put him in a cab and took him to A & E and all he said to him was don't pick fights and expect me to finish them. Ten years on he is a canny lad. Not promoting or condoning what he did

DIfficult but plenty of us were arseholes at that age and she has some growing up to do

Personally I would stop letting her take the piss out of you and set some firm boundaries about what you will and what you wont do for her- I dont like tough love and i think part of the issue is that some parents are too strict and make their love conditional on doing what they say and controlling their kid but you do need boundaries.

THM makes very good points about hating the behaviour not her and letting her know your love her unconditionally but your not there to help her be an arsehole - might want to work it better.

CHin up you will look back on this and laugh about it and when holding your grandkids remind her what she did to you

best of luck

Tom_W1987 - Member
You're a complete idiot sometimes Chewy - but not many would post an actual apology. Tons one of the people on here, who deserves one.

What do you mean "but not many would post an actual apology."?

Did I do something wrong by apologising?

(btw is the term "idiot" offensive or not in the UK? Can I use that in a normal language without people getting offended? Seriously, this is NOT a wind up)

No he's saying you did the right thing

Which you did

Crikey, I'm sorry to read this ton.

FWIW, I'm stepfather to twin boys, aged eighteen. One is great, he and I are very close and he's a genuine pleasure to be around, he's helpful, communicative and has a fantastic attitude towards helping out around the house and never has to be asked twice. His brother however, was difficult from day one, argumentative, aggressive, bullying and openly defiant. He used to goad me and try to get his mother to intervene when I became angry at him and revoked his Playstation access and suchlike. The minute I learned to not respond to his provocation, he became utterly bereft and would simply ignore me. Since then he would outright refuse to lift a finger in the home and would be completely vile. He refused to attend the counselling we arranged or acknowledge the existence of any problem at all. Matters came to a head last year, I gave a final ultimatum - improve his attitude or pack his bags and leave, immediately. He opted for the latter and moved in with his father. To be brutally honest, the day he moved out, all the tension and negativity in the house went with him. I love him to bits, but I don't miss having him under our roof one little bit.

It doesn't end there - he has since enrolled onto an engineering course and won himself a scholarship. He's very self disciplined and looks after himself. He's not been in any trouble with the Police and doesn't indulge in any self-destructive behavior, plus working with engineers has knocked off some of the edges and has instilled a commendable work ethic. I guess he's on a far better path than I'd feared. Our relationship is much better these days too, I occasionally take him out riding and loan him a bike, which he'll voluntarily clean after use.

In short, parenting is difficult. You can apply the same rules, the same rewards and the same amount of love to two siblings, but they can respond in wholly different ways.

Hang in there, try not to let it come between you and Mrs Ton, be consistent with the rules and never, ever stop expressing admiration and gratitude when your daughter does something positive, however hard you have to grit your teeth when saying it.

nonk - Member
No he's saying you did the right thing

Which you did

Chewkw - 'Idiot' can be offensive or affectionate, depending on the context. I wouldn't go calling your colleagues idiots routinely (it probably wouldn't be the wisest career move), but you could call your best mate an idiot for doing something daft with a smile on your face and it not be offensive at all.

It's a multi purpose insult. A bit like 'nob'. 😆

Idiots not that bad, with you - it's more of a term of endearment.

Anyway, this thread makes me more optimistic about humanity. Hope all goes well Ton and don't worry yourself too much Chewkw.

We all like bikes at the end of the day.

What about taking her away. Just the two of you for a trip - somewhere she would like to go.
Try break down some barriers.

It must be hard. Having 2 young kids, this is also one of my biggest fears for the future.

Slight hijack ...

v8ninety - Member

Chewkw - 'Idiot' can be offensive or affectionate, depending on the context. I wouldn't go calling your colleagues idiots routinely (it probably wouldn't be the wisest career move), but you could call your best mate an idiot for doing something daft with a smile on your face and it not be offensive at all.

It's a multi purpose insult. A bit like 'nob'.

For whatever reasons one of my colleague likes to use the term "idiot" to describe someone in front of someone else. When he started using the term like that we sometimes we get nasty look but sometimes embarrassing ones sometimes laughter hence I asked.

Tom_W1987 - Member

Idiots not that bad, with you - it's more of a term of endearment.

Anyway, this thread makes me more optimistic about humanity. Hope all goes well Ton and don't worry yourself too much Chewkw.

We all like bikes at the end of the day.

No, no I am not offended in anyway or form. In fact I would like to use that word yet don't know if others would take offense.

In the far east we don't use the term "idiot" as we tend to associate it with swear word instead we use the term "foolish".

If you call someone idiot in the far east you might get into all sort of mess and I don't mean a mess like being slapped but bodily harm.

Another term is "nutter" ... an English girl I know used that often but when I tried to use it in the office, my colleague laughed but told me not to use that description ... apparently is rude!

You need to show compassion, she is feeling isolated and unwanted. Sounds like you punished her harshly for leaving the army when she needed support while she worked out what to do next.

Also is is not unusual for parents to have "subsidise" their children well into their 20s, it very tough for young adults right now

Ton - I think I may be in the minority here in that I've actually met the lady in question - albeit some years ago and very briefly as you got your bike ready for a ride. Nothing stood out to me then but no reason that it would.
I don't think I have any answers, so I thought I'd try a question and see if that triggers anything with you and that is did you not go through a rough patch (maybe not as rough) with your son about the same age, and from the way you describe it now is that now in the past? Could this be someone in the last throws of childhood saying I'm an adult and I can do what I like?
Like I said no answers, but you have my sympathy and also slight fear that in 10 years or so I'll be writing the same post you did.
Good luck.

I would be concerned about the use of drugs. Probably legal highs. The boyfriend and other partying friends and putting her up. Time to intervene and ask her to come home. If that doesn't work, force her too by whatever means possible.

The way I look at this is that I brought my kids into this world and sometimes they find it a hard world to deal with. I'm a bit more experienced in this world then they are and it is my job to help them. I can't ever resign from that job no matter how much I want to. Sometimes they push you away to get you to come back. I personally cannot agree at all with the "leave them to it" sentiments. I think you persist and persist which demonstrates even though everyone else has given up on them, you haven't.

DavidB nails it. I have looked at this thread a couple of times (I have an 18 yo son and 20 yo daughter) with a view to posting and decided each time not to, until now.

Both of my children can be challenging but I would never use the language "chin her".. "knocked her senseless" etc, take from that what you will

Its always hard being a parent. Ask my 90 year old Mum.
However there is some sound advice from people above. My experience in this area of work shows several things:
You need to be CONSISTENT in your responses (whatever they may be) and others around need to back those up. Often other friends or family will not hold the line so you need to spend time explaining and updating them on the situation. That is hard because you can feel like its all your own fault.
You can't change their behaviour - only they can do that - so you have to create an environment and set of responses that they know are safe. Something like never giving them money but always getting them to a job interview.
Don't lecture them because if they have had a basically sound upbringing, (which I suspect they have had) they will know they are not behaving well. The don't shout advice is very sound.
Be prepared for the long haul. Sorry to say its going to be years by the sound of it so ensure your support structures are good. If you are in a mess you will portray it and they will reject your example as a way forward.
Don't exclude them from the good bits (Sunday lunch, birthday celebrations etc) but have boundaries and safety considerations built in. Let them have as much pudding as they like and lock up your valuables.
Hang on to the good bits from the past and don't compare to your other kids. Think how you hated it!
Never be afraid to ask and get somebody external (not family) to help you reflect. Its easier to see the themes from a dispassionate distance. Thats not meaning professional input necessarily but someone who is analytical and honest.
Good luck.

DrJ I get your point but with all due respect have you got any experience of this?

As in the previous post I made, I am going through a similar - but less extreme - situation myself. I don't pretend to have any answers, but I do know that, as DavidB eloquently says, I can't resign from my job, and I don't think I have it in me to watch her slide down as far as it might take.

You need to be CONSISTENT in your responses (whatever they may be) and others around need to back those up.

Others won't back you up, they'll have their own way of dealing with it and you can't force or negotiate a personality change - it'll just lead to conflict with with your wife or whoever. Divided we fell, so we've picked ourselves up and are standing as different people with different approaches. Inconsistent too and things have been more peaceful since. Sometimes I'll persist and sometimes leave the house for a few days and return when I've stocked up with tolerance and determination.

I've given up on notions of pride, self esteem, respect or even self-respect, and just try to contribute positively. Then when it all gets demoralising or there's more negative than positive I have another break.

So persist, Ton and all the others, do what you can to help and I'll persist too.

Others won't back you up, they'll have their own way of dealing with it and you can't force or negotiate a personality change - [b]it'll just lead to conflict with with your wife[/b] or whoever

This is my experience, to date. More or less broke us up.

14 to 18 I wasn't a "nice" person. Bitter, resentful and quite self-centred. Stole, lied and cheated. 18 onwards, despite being a bit of a piss head I wan't too bad. I like to think that from 21 onwards I've been an OK person.

I'm now going through the situation where my 17 y/o daughter is suffering some mental health issues. She's seen CAMHS and we are trying to get her there again. She will talk to my wife / her mum but only on her terms. She won't talk to me about personal issues at all so to all intents and purposes I spend a lot of time metaphorically outside looking in. We used to be very close so it makes it all the more heartbreaking. I *think* she loves me as her dad but not sure that she particularly like me. All I can do is be there, unconditionally, and wait.

However on the side of the children in this conversation, the world is not a nice place. They are told work hard through school, 6th form and maybe even Uni and the world is your oyster.Then they hit reality and find out that actually it's pretty shit. Low paid 0 hour contracts abound. Your chance of ever actually buying a home decrease almost daily. The government are seemingly on a race to the bottom in terms of ordinary working people's lives. All the while the media is full of the obscene opulent displays of popular oxygen theives the Kardashians and the latest web sensation "London Rich Kids". No wonder some get pissed off.

#edit

The way I look at this is that I brought my kids into this world and sometimes they find it a hard world to deal with. I'm a bit more experienced in this world then they are and it is my job to help them. I can't ever resign from that job no matter how much I want to. Sometimes they push you away to get you to come back. I personally cannot agree at all with the "leave them to it" sentiments. I think you persist and persist which demonstrates even though everyone else has given up on them, you haven't.

Excellent advice.

DrJ - Member 
@thm - you mention professional help - can you elucidate a bit more on what you mean? I am in a similar - but less serious -position, and the problem is that of course my daughter does not want to get help with the issues that lead her to behave in this way, and I'm not sure what resources exist to help me to interact with her.

Sorry Doc, missed this yesterday - sympathies to you too. My A&U were quite guarded about the whole issue (not a great idea IMO) so I am hazy in the detail. Started with eating disorders which were treated with medical help but then went into downward spiral with more severe mental issues which need specialist treatment. This was despite much love and support. At its most extreme, my A&U were advised to make a complete separation from their daughter which even involved moving to the other end of the country. Truly desperate. The rest of the family were asked to refrain from contacting our niece/cousing as they new she would seek our help which would end up in stealing and possible abuse to us. Really awful because as predicted my cousin did contact me and my brother and our natural reaction is to want to help. I was avoided commenting on this because there has been no happy ending. Things have got better and my cousin has now moved back closer to my A&U and they have regular contact. This has been important following the loss of their son. Things are better but far from perfect. It's a terrible situation.

Sorry ton, if this experience is hard to read, there are happier endings, much happier ones. Good luck to you both.

Following on from Coyote comments, I read an interesting article on the issues facing the current young generation. The older living generations have been lucky. Our expectations were much lower at school, Uni and starting work as was the pressure (nine of the anything less than an A is a fail crap). However, for many, the outcome has been much better than expected. The economy largely prospered, living standards rose (helped by the debt mirage) and outcomes largely exceeded expectations.

The young generation, in contrast, have been conditioned that the world is their oyster. They are perfect, they can achieve what they want and should aim corresponding high. They are sheltered from criticism and from failure (ok loads of sweeping generalisations here I admit) and go out into the world with absurdly high expectations re outcomes. This will be the generation were outcomes will probably be lower than expectation - in complete contrast to the experience of their parents - and this will be tough to deal with. Mental issues are a symptom of this and an very ugly one at that.

On that happy note, better do some work....

OP sorry to hear about this siuation. To be honest from what I've read here she is just lost, I'd imagine the boyfriend she's chosen won't be helping either. Its a tough situation (one I am glad we never had to fave with our three). She needs something to anchor herself to, a hobby if not a job. Right now she is drifting and downwards. As @oldman says its time to ween her off of money and your support. Definitely don't wash her clothes, I am against cutting the phone off as thats a safety issue for a young woman but she needs to start supporting herself. Does your wife have the ability to talk to her, one or both of you need to communicate with her. She may have been gutted rhe army didn't work our, maybe that was her dream ?

Don't give up on her, she's being a PITA but I've known worse (friends two daughters in care after series of robberies and drug abuse) and she may not be that far from turning a corner

They are sheltered from criticism and from failure (ok loads of sweeping generalisations here I admit) and go out into the world with absurdly high expectations re outcomes. This will be the generation were outcomes will probably be lower than expectation - in complete contrast to the experience of their parents - and this will be tough to deal with. Mental issues are a symptom of this and an very ugly one at that.

I call horseshit on this, the amount of ageing doctors that I know who got a B and a few C's at O-levels beggars belief.

Youngsters these days are ruthlessly competitive, expectations for your generation were low because competition was low. When competition is low, wages skyrocket and living costs are good. When competition is high, well, we get what we have now, everyone fighting for a smaller and smaller slice of the pie.

I don't have any experience of this to comment but Olly2097 seems to have it right as i see it. Be tough, yes, because she's being an arse but also maybe she needs to feel loved so understand what her beef is and help channel it. She's surely just finding her way and needs some support in doing so, albeit doesn't mean being a sook and laying on an easy life. Good luck.

We are agreeing then Tom. Doctors got on despie poor O levels. We had an easier ride and outcomes > expectations. Our parents came out of rationing- era so there were lower parental expectations from them too. Today IMO expectations > future outcomes and this is not helped by the modern mindset that anyone can achieve anything they want - the X Factor dream. It's baloney and only increases the risk of mental health issues - again IMO.

I am relieved that both my kids have had 4 year degree courses after the school exam treadmill. Gave them some relief before the internship/ job application nightmare begins or began!

Kids/young adults have too little time to relax IMO. I feel it now with comments to mini THM about what he is doing work wise in the holidays. In my day we did a bit of casual work to fund inter-railing or climbing in the Alps. Summers were not about preparing the perfect CV!!!

I call horseshit on this, the amount of ageing doctors that I know who got a B and a few C's at O-levels beggars belief.

I think that's kind of the point. In my age group (late 40s) 'O' level grade A was rare. C was a pass and perfectly acceptable. The pressure to score straight 'A's is immense! We were told that Cs will open doors, it was acceptable to go from school at 15 / 16 straight into work. Uni was for the real high achievers. I agree with THM that children now are under much more pressure to achieve which unlimately can lead to severe disillusionment and subsequesnt mental problems. Tom W however does make a good point.

#edit

In my day we did a bit of casual work to fund inter-railing or climbing in the Alps. Summers were not about preparing the perfect CV!!!

My daughter spent ages preparing a CV to submit for casual work at local garden centres, etc. She now has a part time job (4 hours a week - yeah right) at Matalan and the way they treat staff and mess them around is unreal.

A B and a few C's wasn't bad back then. Kids may be a tad brighter these days thanks to "stimuli" but that doesn't account for the numbers of As being handed out. Nor the objective of 50% of the population getting a university or equivalent education being close. It's just qualification devaluation and the corresponding expectations need to be devalued too. Today's kids just have to spend longer in the education system to get a job they were competent to do at 18.

The way the government has raised standards in terms of numbers getting good results is to lower the standards needed to get good results.

I think it's tempting to reach that conclusion Edukator - but having read the dissertations and essays of my son and his girlfriend for interest it's easily falsifiable. Their level of work is way beyond anything that my wife and I and peers achieved - [b]way beyond[/b] - the standards are higher as it the achievement levels. FFS, they are reading Kant in 1y A level theology these days!!!

FFS, they are reading Kant

Very rarely stable, as I recall

When competition is low, wages skyrocket and living costs are good. When competition is high, well, we get what we have now, everyone fighting for a smaller and smaller slice of the pie.

I completely agree with this. It's a thoroughly crappy time to be growing up, expectations are high, education = debt, housing is expensive and competition is fierce. It's not surprising that many people simply give up in the absence of an alternative.

How much is reworded copy-paste, THM?

You can read any name you want at any age, the difference being how much you understand and how much you get out of it.

The information age allows easy access to a mass of information, other people's work to skim read, assimilate a bit and collate. The results look impressive but when you start a conversation you realise you have to take it down a notch and remember where you were yourself at the same age with understanding. I tried to speak French with a girl with an A-level A* in French and got replied to in English.

We had less to deal with, access was harder, but we dealt with it just as well, possibly better.

Anyhow, back on topic, the amount of pointless "education" kids have to get through to be able to work in a garden center is rising and it's not surprising some kids end up disenfranchised.

Our parents came out of rationing- era so there were lower parental expectations from them too. Today IMO expectations > future outcomes and this is not helped by the modern mindset that anyone can achieve anything they want - the X Factor dream. It's baloney and only increases the risk of mental health issues - again IMO.

Good points, but I'd argue that the wartime generation worked for a better tomorrow after the war and were positive that things would get better. It's the 60's to 70's lot that really gave up on continuing that - a lot of them seem very comfortable and happy with the status quo.

I don't think there are any change in expectations for our children, I just think that the comfortable lot are oblivious to their issues and fairly apathetic. Housing could be affordable, but that would upset those retired house owners.

FFS, they are reading Kant

You want to knock that on the head, before it gets out of hand! 😮

I'm going to add, it's damaging our country at a far deeper level than people expect as well.

The Philippines is a dog eat dog country, you have to work insanely hard to get out of poverty/low wages and that encourages a mentality whereby everyone is out for themselves and their immediate family. It permeates throughout all walks of life by encouraging rampant corruption and nepotism. When people do make it, they wall themselves off in gated communities and the fact that they made it against all odds goes to their heads. The whole cycle is circular, overt corruption breeds contempt for the law which breeds more corruption.

That is where we are heading.

I know things have gone a bit off topic but I think that there are some excellent points being made about pressure and influence on younger people. Hopefully they are helping the OP.

Fascinating discussion - which has diverged somewhat from [b]Ton's[/b] issues.

And there have always been girls and boys who went off the rails. For girls perhaps the range of options for going off the rails has broadened...

But yes, we know that GCSEs and A levels have been subject to grade inflation (hence the move in GCSE to grading 1-9 in 2 years, when my younger child and my partner's younger child do them). But I am also convinced most children work harder and are more motivated with greater expectations of themselves, of their schools and universities, and the future. But this leaves those who come off the rails even more distant from where the others are in life, qualifcations and achievements. Add into that a society built on material aspiration and self-defined celebrity, where many young people seem to live through social media and for today only, and you don't need to be an old git like me to see issues arising...

I will just add this Ton, perhaps you could give "The True believer" and "The Passionate State of Mind" by Eric Hoffer as a present. Seriously, I haven't found anything in politics or my own life that this guy somehow hasn't managed to make any sense out of - 60 odd years since they were written. They aren't self-help books, they are of a political bent but I found them quite enlightening personally as well.

A fateful process is set in motion when the individual is released "to the freedom of his own impotence" and left to justify his existence by his own efforts. The autonomous individual, striving to realize himself and prove his worth, has created all that is great in literature, art, music, science and technology. The autonomous individual, also, when he can neither realize himself nor justify his existence by his own efforts, is a breeding call of frustration, and the seed of the convulsions which shake our world to its foundations.

The individual on his own is stable only so long as he is possessed of self-esteem. The maintenance of self-esteem is a continuous task which taxes all of the individual's powers and inner resources. We have to prove our worth and justify our existence anew each day. When, for whatever reason, self-esteem is unattainable, the autonomous individual becomes a highly explosive entity. He turns away from an unpromising self and plunges into the pursuit of pride — the explosive substitute for self-esteem. All social disturbances and upheavals have their roots in crises of individual self-esteem, and the great endeavor in which the masses most readily unite is basically a search for pride.

I became a lot more focused as an adult after I read his books.

Take your point on spoken language Edukator but not on cut and paste - especially given plagarism software. I was in the "its easier these days" camp until recently ie, when I read current essays and dissertations.