Sold my car to someone I know; closed the deal last Friday. He calls me today to say that a warning light had come on, he's had it looked at and it needs a new ABS Modulator at a cost of about £1800 (a re-con unit would only be about £1300 fitted). To be honest I'm gutted becase I sold it in good faith and have offered to meet him half way on the cost. He has since come back asking me to pay about two-thirds of the cost! I reaffirmed that I would meet half the cost only.
Now, if he asks me for more than half again I shall withdraw my offer and tell him tough sh1t, sold as seen. It will cost me a friend no doubt and to be honest it is causing me a fair amount of stress. What would you do...
If he's really a friend then you'll sort it out 🙂
Thats a shitter, how much was the total price?
Buy it back, your offer is fair though...
never sell a car to a friend
I think 50/50 is fair if you genuinely didn't know this problem was about to happen.
never sell a car to a friend
Funny enough, that did go through my mind before I sold it to him!
never sell a car to a friend
...for more than the tax left on it... 😉
Buy it back...
Already replaced it, the money is spent...
50/50 is more than fair.
And assuming he's had more than one opinion, & opinions from a non-franchise real-world garage or two...?
3 opinions from non-franchised garages, two of them specialists in the vehicle involved including one that I have always used.
Look up the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) and see what that says about what people can and can't do after purchase of a car.
Going through that now after my wife's new car went wrong.
Basically, I think that he can claim a replacement, a repair or a refund.
willard - MemberLook up the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) and see what that says about what people can and can't do after purchase of a car.
Going through that now after my wife's new car went wrong.
Basically, I think that he can claim a replacement, a repair or a refund.
I'm not so sure about that, I think there are different rules for a private seller.
Edit:
Secondhand cars
When you buy a secondhand car, your rights will depend on whether you bought
the car from a dealer, from a private seller, at an auction or over the internet.
Buying a car from a private seller - what the law says
If you buy a car from a private seller, you won't have the same rights as
when you buy from a dealer. You will only be able to take action against the
seller if:
* the vehicle doesn't match the description they gave you, for example, they told you it had only one owner when it has had several. The seller will be responsible for giving you a false description, even if they believed it to be true
* the seller broke a specific contract term, for example, by saying that the car would have an MOT and it did not
* the car is unroadworthy. It is a criminal offence to sell an unroadworthy car. A car is unroadworthy if its brakes, tyres, steering, or construction make it unfit for the road. An MOT certificate does not
mean that the car is roadworthy
* the seller was not the legal owner of the car and did not have a right to sell it.
Look up the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended)
Don't think he's wanting to bin the friendship [i]just[/i] yet...
what kind of car is it - make model and year?
50/50 seems fair.
Or buy it back.
You just to buy crappier cars in future - so you can give them away..
J.
If you sell a car privately you should always give a receipt and write sold as seen on it. Then there is no room for comeback, you never forced him into buying the car so what you offered is more than fair
Looking subjectively at it, then its just buyer beware, the light wasn't on when you sold it to him (was it?) so you weren't to know. I'd say he doesn't have a leg to stand on unless you sold him a warranty with it.
I think the half price offer is more than generous. Certainly ask him to get a couple of more quotes (even just to get some value for your money...).
Never again will I sell cars to friends. One tried to barter down the agreed price when I turned up at his house with the keys/documents, another complained to me after a year that some electricals had gone wrong (after he'd lent it to another friend who has a long history of breaking everything he ever touches, yet still my fault apparently).
Can't you just find a scrappy with that model of car in it and go and get one from there?
A lot of modern cars need the abs ecu re coding to the engine or body ecu's iir, hence the cost
Sounds heck of an expensive component. How much was the car? 50 / 50 sounds fair to me
Is the car from the VAG group? as Volkswagen are now offering replacements at nominal prices as it is a recognised design/build issue. However this is subject to a few small clauses.
For a genuinely unforeseen problem, 50/50 is more than fair.
U31... if that's the case I am sure there are places that he could go to get it re-coded for a lot less than £1300!
I think 50/50 is fair if you genuinely didn't know this problem was about to happen.
What a load of tosh (IMO) - you buy a second hand car you take that risk. If he'd known the problem existed or might pop up soon he has some partial responsibility, if not he owes him nothing, friend or not. In fact I'd be more than cheesed off at the mate for asking.I'd do anything I possibly could to help and I may offer some cash to help out, but to consider it obligatory is a joke and if they asked I'd let them know my thoughts in no uncertain terms.
A lot of modern cars need the abs ecu re coding to the engine or body ecu's iir, hence the cost
Aye, but that's just the dealer bending you over - it takes 10 seconds and a piece of software/hardware they already have for other purposes, there's no reason for the stupendous cost.
I sold a car to our neighbours for £700. The turbo went not long afterwards. I hunted for, found, paid for and fitted a replacement, £120 + time. They paid me back for the part.
They were really nice about it tho and forced the cheque into my hands. I probably wouldn't have asked them for it, but their backs were against the wall financially at the time. Although that's another issue since they aren't exactly cautious... 😐
The point was they were super nice about it. If the OP's "mate" is being an arse, I'd tell him to stuff it somewhere wrapped in a piece of paper with 'Caveat Emptor' written on it.
50% of the reconditioned unit is more than fair. They didn't buy a new ABS modulator so there is no reason for them to turn down a reconditioned one.
But I would be trawling ebay for a used one, if you are stumping up half the cash voluntarily, I say you have the right to choose the cheapest option.
Another vote for 50% of the recon'd unit. Reckon that's what I'd do and if he had any sense he'd take it. He certainly wouldn't have got that if he wasn't a friend so it's a good and fair deal.
He's a cheeky git. I wouldn't even ask if i'd bought it. How far do you think he'd get if he'd bought it from an auction or from autotrader?
Is this a VW/Audi/Seat? There is a known issue with the ABS sender units and if you speak to the people at your dealership garage and then VAG
central customer services then you will get a lot off.
It went on my wife's 53 plate touran and at first they quoted us the full price, but after a lot of haggeling we got 50% off and woudl have had more if the car was newer. MOre recent cars they are doing it for free!
Never sell to a friend as others have said!! Always ends in tears!
As for the 50/50 im astounded you are so genourous. You didnt forse him to buy the car, as so long as you did NT know about any fault prior to selling, its a private sell so sold as seen. You are NOT honoured to help out in anyway, so if hes not happy with your v generous 50% offer id tell him to shove it. I know easier said then done, what with being a friend etc but that is life. If he bought it from joe bloggs down road he wouldnt have any come back!
If that had been me, I'd have given him a reciept with "sold as seen and inspected, no warranty expressed or implied" written on it, like I do with every car I sell..... And that would have been the end of the matter.
To be fair, I wouldn't dream of even asking for money towards the repair if I'd have bought the car.
If it's a VAG, for crying out loud change the brake light switch first. It fails regularly, puts on more dash lights than a Christmas tree, and is a fiver to replace. The ABS modulators do fail, but the brake pedal switch fails a lot more often!
A failed abs sensor can throw up problems everywhere as well do you not know any mechanic friend's or know anyone with a diagnostic machine?
If its VAG get it put on a VAG-COM and get a print out of the faults.
www.findapart.com I got three calls the next day for a single point injection unit second hand, 26,000 miles, £60. Part brand new close to £900. Car is running like a dream.
****, awful situation.
How long have you known him? I think 50:50 is fair. Remind him if its a private sale normally its sold as seen.
Also ask him - how could he gaze into the future and spot something amiss? What if something else goes wrong in 2 weeks- should you also offer a warranty on that? Ask him that. Its a shitter but say to him 50/50 is BOTH of you stung together 🙂
Thanks for the replies so far 🙂
It's a Land Rover Defender TD5 so the ABS is all tied in with the 4WD Traction Control, etc., hence the cost 😯
Mechanic friend (at one of the non-franchised LR Dealers) has already done the diagnosis and confirmed what is required. It's also him that has shopped around for us for a recon unit so far.
I would take full responsibility for this.
Sorry, doesnt your friend know what he was letting himself in for?
Did he expect a hewn-from-granite-tonka-toy in a Defender? Does he know if he keeps it he'll have to fork-out every so often par the course and it might be at risk of being stolen due to its desirability for parts?
Just double-check his perception. He may have a skewered-image of the brand/car.
Also.......find out if you can have forwarning on this sort of problem- ask him to ask the garage this. IF THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT YOU COULD HAVE KNOWN ABOUT THIS PROBLEM BEFORE THROUGH SYMPTOMS BEFORE THE LIGHT - Then he'll know your completely innocent yet hes asking you to foot the bill for something that is AFTER you sold it in 100% good-faith.
Don't forget to ask him when you should reasonably stop contributing to repairs (sounds daft but it may stop his 2/3's request dead then).
toys19 - Member
I would take full responsibility for this.
Cheers dude, paypal or money transfer. We both appreciate your offer...like, really! 😆 8)
Yeah I knew that was coming right after I posted it, too tired to argue...
He'syour mate do the right thing. Just accept the hit and move on. For mne ny freinds are worth any sum of money. If you keep your account positive with your mate it will come back in spades.
toys19- when do you stop? what if a wheel bearing went next week or the gearbox failed a week on Monday?
It's a Landrover, what did he expect?
If you keep your account positive with your mate it will come back in spades
Hopefully - although if he's basically asking you to fix his car, how good of a mate is he? I'd never dream of asking my mate for this.
If you'd sold it to a stranger they would have no recourse. You didn't know and more than he did what was going to go wrong, so why should you stump up? As others have said - at what point in the future do you stop accepting responsibility? If he's a friend worth keeping, he wouldn't be trying to get you to pay for it.
I'd never dream of asking my mate for this.
Agree. I wouldnt. I'd just think 'oh ffs, trust my luck'.
My first thought would be 'would there have been a pre-warning sign'? but if the first sign was engine light then really its pretty shitty to expect your mate to pay out when its not his fault. Unless the OP said 'its been bombproof and dont worry it'll give you zero problems'. If he just said 'well since I've owned it its been fine'- then thats fair enough.
You're scaring me now hora!
He's a mate, not a really close friend; I'd cough up 50% for me, not for him if you see what I mean. Concern, guilt, nice guy, stupid... call it what you will. Any more than 50% and I would feel that he is jeopardising our friendship, not me. It's been interesting to get other people's take on the situation because when you're actually involved it's not so easy to step back and look at it unemotionally.
Sold one of our TD5's a while ago with 'water issues' stated, but not investigated, recommended he collected it on a trailer so could be an easy fix. Instead he turned up with a gallon of water, got half way across Wales before blowing it big time.
Anyway, to the point - it's probably coming back to us on a trailer, if we can't be arsed to re-engine it (4 cracks in block now!), it will be broken for bits most likely, 110 hi-cap. Still worth as much as it was sold for.
Balls! - just remembered, no ABS on our trucks as they are basic work horses, sorry for any glimmer of hope
I recently bought a car and within a week the fuel/air sensor went with the engine light on. The car didnt give any indication before. Cost me £400- I chalked that upto 'its one of those things that CAN go wrong 🙂
psling- ask him to speak to the garage for them to say if you'd have an inclining that this part was on its way out through the way the car drove etc. If they say no to him- then speak to him again (this time on your terms). 🙂
It is true that if it was the other way round I too wouldn't dream of asking. It would be my hard luck.
toys19- when do you stop? what if a wheel bearing went next week or the gearbox failed a week on Monday?
Yeah well if you cannot decide thats a measure of how good a mate he is. Look you make your own choices I amnot here too argue. I, as in me, my personal choice, the self, would bail my mate out. Any of the rest of you can do what ya ****ing like. But the OP did ask. My opinion here isn't up for discussion or defence as it would only be my money I'm spending. I don't believe in using the law to defend myself agaisnt karma, I would feel responsible if it was so close tot he date of sale.
toys19 agree and understand where you are coming from 🙂
I really don't believe in Karma on such things unless you deliberately set out to hoodwink or cover up a problem. If that was the case you wouldnt sell to a mate would you?
I know what you're saying toys19 and may be more that way inclined if it wasn't such a big lump of money 😳 To be honest, putting my hand in my pocket for 50% is a stretch, any more would require the wife's permission... 😉
2/3's for something you couldn't have forseen on a car thats no longer your responsibility.
Hes asking for a mates-Warranty-service.
Pop on a few Landy forums with this product failure- someone somewhere has the part in a salvage/reclamation sale on a shelf...
If Landrovers are such big business for used parts etc surely theres a recon-part of thus out there or a recently stolen Td5 with this part about to broken off 😉
Its where I normally find ALL my Subaru parts 😀
IF you find one point him in that direction and offer 50% off the cost of that part (not the labour).
Try a fitter from SHB, amazing what they have kicking around their vans and are up for a bit of home work, well ours is any way, may be doing our hi-cap. They do a lot of land rovers and know them well.
The clincher for me was him asking you for more than the meet-you-halfway offer you made. That would be my well-you-can-sing-for-it moment. I assume he got a good deal on the motor in the first place?
I assume he got a good deal on the motor in the first place?
You assume rightly; I let it go for about 1k under market value 🙄 And he knows that.
It's easy to tell someone else on a forum to be a ruthless cock. But, really, you're being way too nice here...especially if you've done him a good deal on the price.
I want to be your friend now...just in case anything goes wrong with anything I own 🙂
This is very simple. Your "mate" is taking the piss. You need to tell him to go forth and multiply.
50% of the part cost max and frankly I'd not do that if it were me. Sold as seen fella, sold as seen.
Cursory search shows http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SRD000110-Defender-ABS-control-module-/180535831800?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM#ht_583wt_706
He needs to MTFU and take responsibility. He bought it under market value and if something goes wrong post sale HE owns it not you. If you had sold it with a warning light on he still would have bought it knowing that. But you didn't and sh1t happens - his risk. I'd be staunch on this one as the week after he might get a puncture, is that your problem as well. As soon as he transfers ownership its his issue. You didn't know, you don't pick up the tab or a %age of it. IMO.
not read all the posts but never, ever engage in financial transactions with a friend, unless you don't like them.
What the hell is ABS and traction control doing on a Defender anyway?!
That's like putting a roof rack on a spitfire.
Anyway,
He bought it (it's his now, unless you're still driving it half the time?)
He broke it (you have no idea what crap he's been putting it through since he bought it)
He got it cheap (so if he fixes it with a recon/used part it'll still be cheaper than if he'd bought one on the open market!)
If you want to be a good mate buy him a Haynes manual and let him learn something useful from the experience. Sticking your head under a broken Landy with your mates is the true Land Rover owning experience! 🙂
Oh whell some you win some you lose.
caveat empor - buyer beware
Never sell a car to a friend ....stuff like this happens an dyou feel guilty but how could you have known what would happen. Shrug apologetically and tell him to fix the car as it is not your problem.
Very harsh but it is just the bad luck of owning a landy they need to get used to this....and never sell a car to a friend.
Yeah well if you cannot decide thats a measure of how good a mate he is.
Just don't get it. You owe him nothing, it's a second hand car - things go wrong with them, it could happen to anyone. If he even THOUGHT I should pay part of it I'd consider him no longer a friend. Where do you stop, 2 weeks, 2 months? 2 years? Help him out on fuel as he didn't really think to check the economy of it?
I'd not feel guilty at all, I'd feel sorry for him, but not guilty. And because I felt sorry I'd try to help him fit one on the cheap, I'd even help him find one, but it's his car now now mine.
If you bought it off him would you expect him to pay? Money and friends should never cross, some people get some strange loyalty/value placing tendencies when it comes to friends.
Each to his own, but it's still stupid IMO - its not "using the law", its a simple fact that it's now his car.
Series 2 disco td5? Sheeet.
I once had one but 3.9 with a light on the dash but the abs/ tc still worked fine.
Got Martin at Landranger to put it on the testbook, it would put the light out till you restarted the engine and drove the 10 yard in self test. light back on.
There are two relays under the fuse box next to the ECU, yellow and black i seem to recall.
check these first. in my case these were fine. obviously the ecu was fine. The wheel sensors where also fine, so **** knows. The relays are there to set the dash light, on when you turn the ignition, i think it flashed while in self test mode, then once the car sensed the all the wheel sensors where picking up induction after a few yards it turns off the light. my fault must have been in the wiring between the relays.
In the end i simply broke the dash bulb.
Christ help you when leaked oil seeps in to the diesel injection loom, as it inevitably will. He'll be at your door with the begging bowl again when the engine shuts down for no apparent reason.
Sorry, only just woke up when i read this, are we talking abs ecu, or the modulator / accumulator sphere and pump assembly under the bonnet?
Not of these parts are "coded" to the BCEM so its just a simple battery off terminal plug undone and swap, with a brake fluid bleed if its the pump, mod, or accumulator.
Well under a couple hundred s/h from a breaker...
Hora.. the wheel bearings on these are £300 a pop plus fitting... they come as a hub unit only, after countless back street and home mechanics not having a 20 tonne press to hand, snapped the ABS ring stators in an attempt to get the inner race out of the hub... So hope for the OP sake this never happens!
Out of interest, if it hadn't broken and for some reason he sold it, would he offer you more than 50% of the profit without being asked?
Personally, although I think I would probably do the same as you, I really do think the mate is being unreasonable. If he wanted warranty he should have paid the higher prices that include warranty.
I paid about 1.5K under the going rate for my VW van, 6 months in and it needed £2K spending on it. Buy 2nd hand and the risk is there.
When I've bought from acquaintances/friends before, they've both explicitly said "look - you're buying a used car so it could blow up tomorrow - ok?". Seems like the right approach on reflection/in hindsight. (Not a criticism of the OP).
- You sold it to him 1k under book and he knows this?
- Im assuming his only gotten one quote for full whack and hes not had the conscience to at least make a few phone calls or go onto a specialist forum or two?
As I've said and others multiple breakers/specialist salvage etc can sell you the part AND alot I've encountered offer 30days money back if it fails (well they do on Subaru ones I use).
TBH- then you've helped him out after its nothing to do with you. You've found him the resource/part and at a much lower price.
If he insists on a NEW part on a old car in this situation hes not really a friend at all. As you say yourself psling I'd feel uncomfortable asking (I'd hope my friend would offer to help in someway) but I most certainly wouldnt ask.
buy it back and ask him to pay 2 thirds of the cost for the repair for you. You buy a 2nd hand car it breaks down week after you bought it you repair it shit bust.
parkesie, hes already spent the money on a new car otherwise that'd have been a good idea (especially considering he'd sold the car undervalue so could claw it back).
i agree with the consensus here, especially following the revelation that he got it at well below book value. i know he's a mate and putting myself in the same position it would be hard, but i'd politely remind him that the grand he saved on book value is in his pocket, not yours. if you must go 50:50 but if he persists for 2/3 cut your losses on this guy and tell him to sort it himself.
a dilemma indeed.
davidrussell succinctly put.
also, if you do end up stumping up for it make sure he knows in no uncertain terms that he better take a good look at the car and find whatever else might be wrong with it now so he can save for the repair bills later, because you are finished with helping him on it. in fact reflecting on it a bit more i'd find it hard to speak to the guy again for a long time after something like this...
Hang on...
ABS and TC on a defender? What's the world coming to? I thought you were lucky if the handbrake worked and the diffs stayed locked over bumps...
If he's a close enough mate that you trust each other, then it's a case of "well, it was fine when I had it, sorry mate, bad timing for you but pretty good timing for me."
If he's not a close enough mate that he'd take your word for it that it was fine, then can you trust his word that there's anything wrong with it now?
Either way, you need to tell him to roll it tightly and grease it lightly. Offering to pay 50% is over-generous by about 50%, and for the cheeky cunnott to then come back and ask for more money, what he really needs there is a good solid punch in the face.
In fact, the more I think about this, the more I think that your "mate's" actions are driven by a thought of "**** me, he's soft in the head, I wonder how much more I can bleed out of him?"
so you sold it a grand less than you could off and he want more than50% of the cost of repairing his own car when he could repair it for less tna the 50% cost by getting second hand.in that case
1. Ask for thefull list price give them the 50% pocket the difference
2. Go on holiday with the money you save to console yourself for loosing a "friend"
Seems lie a one way street to me
50% was very fair and I would tell them to do one personally if all the above is correct.
Mate had a similiar situation with a landy to which his response to his mate was
Of course it isold and sh1t Why do you think i sold it and of course it is a M reg Landy get used to this experience.