[Closed] Digital SLR question

Two buttons?

S means shutter priority meaning that you think 'right I want to take this at 1/800s' so you set that, and the camera keeps that shutter speed and adjusts everything else to get the exposure ok, thereby compensating for the sun going in etc.

Two buttons?

Buttons, dials whatever you want, one for shutter speed and the second for aperture, two!

My camera doesn't have "S". But what does the "M" mean then?

And I didn't mean that settings were irrelevant, only that they don't need to be elevated to some hallowed, faux creative status

And I think that they are as integral part of the creative process as composition is.

If you compose well but get the exposure all wrong then the image simply will not convey what you want it to. If you compose terribly with perfect exposure then you'll have a technically competent but uninteresting picture.

Both composition and exposure involve creative decisions that alter your final image, as I've just shown you with your very own photos!

Right.. if you use M you need to adjust twice - aperture and shutter. If you use one of the priority modes then you only need one adjustment...

What camera is it? P, S, A and M are pretty much a convention I think.

My camera doesn't have "S". But what does the "M" mean then?

[img] [/img]

P = Program
A = Aperture priority (you set aperture size, camera selects shutter speed)
S = Shutter priority (you set shutter speed, camera selects aperture)
M = Manual (you set shutter speed and aperture)

(Canon use "Av" for aperture and "Tv" for shutter "Time")
[img] [/img]

Then, in addition, the running man thing is sport setting, which favours high speed shutter but isn't as rigid as S mode.. and so on. the woman in the hat I am guessing is portrait - presumably favouring narrow DOF?

EOS10d and EOS20d. But by using a priority mode you're restricting my creativity. The sun is just one parameter, maybe from the above scenario I decide the pictures have too much blur and I want a faster shutter speed, I only need one control. There are times when multiple cahnges are needed, not a problem. Manual is, for me, much simpler and much easier to control the camera. Next purchase, hopefully will be an EOS5d MkII with non of this auto rubbish.

Then, in addition, the running man thing is sport setting, which favours high speed shutter but isn't as rigid as S mode.. and so on. the woman in the hat I am guessing is portrait - presumably favouring narrow DOF?

Yep, "scene modes". Basically like the "green square auto" but you give the camera a bit of a hint about the kind of picture you are trying to take.

But by using a priority mode you're restricting my creativity.

Not really - the same thing can be achieved unless you are going for a really wild exposure.

Both composition and exposure involve creative decisions

I'm disputing the adjective "creative" for exposure as I think it's just a technical detail to choose the compromise which captures the detail you want, in the same way you might select a particular paintbrush. Composition [b]can[/b] be creative.

as I've just shown you with your very own photos!

but I was just snapping, not being creative.

The track photo is quite beautiful, not just as an image, but also it is a quite difficult image to take from a technical point of view. How many pictures were rejected from that shoot????

He's on film, so I doubt it was many, if any at all.....

From the two pictures from Elfin, the TT picture has too much movement for my tastes, I'd like to see at least a small area being clearly defined, the eyes or face for example.

Ahh. You might like this, then? 🙂

[url= http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2690/4319913898_dedfd47443_b.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2690/4319913898_dedfd47443_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_atkin/4319913898/ ]103[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/peter_atkin/ ]PeterPoddy[/url], on Flickr

I'm disputing the adjective "creative" for exposure as I think it's just a technical detail to choose the compromise which captures the detail you want, in the same way you might select a particular paintbrush. Composition can be creative.

Yes but [u]choosing[/u] [i]"the compromise which captures the detail you want"[/i] [u]is[/u] a creative decision!! You creatively decide what details go in your creation and what details are irrelevant and distract from it.

I was just snapping, not being creative

No comment 😈

Composition is Art, Photography is science.

Use cameras as you want to, they are just a means to an end.

GrahamS - Member

But by using a priority mode you're restricting my creativity.

Not really - the same thing can be achieved unless you are going for a really wild exposure.

Of course it's restricting, you're only allowing me to move on one axis. Fix SSpeed and I can only play with aperture, fix aperture and I can only play with SSpeed. Fully manual and I can do what I want, when I want.

I hate those mode dials as they always manage to turn accidentally 🙁
Now I have:
[img] [/img]
where you have to hold down the mode button and spin the wheel, which is far less prone to nudging 🙂

The track photo is quite beautiful,

there's something awry there either in exposure developing or printing.
it looks muddy so maybe under exposed and there is an area of overexposure running along the top of the frame so either lack of agitation when in the tank or a reflection off the baseboard mask when printing. it certainly doesn't look like everything was 100% spot on in the process from exposure to print.

Ahh. You might like this, then?

sorry, rider too ugly 🙁

Yes but choosing "the compromise which captures the detail you want" is a creative decision!!

at the same level as choosing the contrast on your TV allows you to join hands with the director...

or if you like, set the camera on "bracket" and select the best rendering later...

Nice, but I prefer this, though, PP. 😉

[img] [/img]

Of course it's restricting, you're only allowing me to move on one axis. Fix SSpeed and I can only play with aperture, fix aperture and I can only play with SSpeed.

But you just said you "don't want to be pi55ing around with two buttons for every shot" - which means you have to fix one?

Anyway it's not true. I shoot Aperture priority most of the time.

I choose the overall exposure I want using the exposure compensation (e.g. I want this to be dark so I'll dial down two stops (-2EV) from the normal exposure)

Then I am free to change the aperture as I like and the camera will balance the shutter speed to ensure I get the same overall exposure.

copyright thief 🙁

But you just said you "don't want to be pi55ing around with two buttons for every shot" - which means you have to fix one?

Exactly, but I have the choice about which way I want to move, depending on exteranl factors like the light levels, or internal factors like my whims, and I get to choose which one I fix.

at the same level as choosing the contrast on your TV allows you to join hands with the director...

**** me you really just don't get it do you simon? 😆

The contrast on my TV doesn't alter the depth of field. It doesn't introduce motion blur or freeze the action. It doesn't make the scene lighter or darker. It doesn't introduce noise.

That's the directors job!

Exactly, but I have the choice about which way I want to move, depending on exteranl factors like the light levels, or internal factors like my whims, and I get to choose which one I fix.

So do I. I can switch it to shutter priority if I want. 😀

Personally I just can't be arsed doing the mental maths to work out exposures.

Presumably you have to go [i]"Right I'm at f/11 for 1/30s. That exposure is spot on, but I want a shallower depth of field. So stop down the aperture to f/4, that's three stops, so then I need to decrease the shutter speed to... 30 x 2 x 2 x 2... rounded.. 1/250s"[/i]

Whereas in Aperture priority I would just stop down the aperture and the camera does the maths to give me the 1/250s shutter for the same exposure. That feels simpler to me.

maybe from the above scenario I decide the pictures have too much blur and I want a faster shutter speed, I only need one control.

Yes but in that situation your picture will get darker if you only operate one control, so you'd need to operate two to keep the same exposure. In S mode you'd only have to operate one.

Next purchase, hopefully will be an EOS5d MkII with non of this auto rubbish.

Not quite sure I follow what you are talking about. Your current camera and that one have full auto, full manual and all points in between. You are free to choose which one you want.

I am suggesting that in the scenario described, S mode would be a simpler option since you could adjust the shutter speed as you wish without having to adjust the aperture as well to maintain exposure.

More a case of "f/11 for 1/30sec is spot on....
... and now the suns gone in, let's go f/8 or,
... this guys coming slower, let's go 1/50sec, or,
... this guys wearing a really light shirt, let's go f/13, or,
...?

With the photography I do, I'm unlikely to get a perfect exposure. I'm looking for something else. Why are you trying to convice me that the way I find comfortale is somehow not good?

simonfbarnes - Member

copyright thief

Set the aperture you want, quick butchers at the RGB histogram, get the furthest peak on the right nearly clipping by adjusting the shutter speed and hey presto spot on exposure

Why are you trying to convice me that the way I find comfortale is somehow not good?

More to the point, why do you THINK I'm trying to convince you of anything?!

If you're an experienced camera user, then fine. You sounded somewhat unsure of things however, so I was trying to illustrate what S and A modes could do for you if you weren't aware, which you may have found useful.

Bloody internet... everyone thinks everyone else is trying to force them to do something or other 🙂

More to the point, why do you THINK I'm trying to convince you of anything?!

Not necessarily you, and I was playing earlier. 😉
Why do people have to take thinks so personally on the internet. 🙄 oh yes, and... 😉

get the furthest peak on the right nearly clipping by adjusting the shutter speed and hey presto spot on exposure

I thought the idea was to get most of it in the middle?

With the photography I do, I'm unlikely to get a perfect exposure. I'm looking for something else. Why are you trying to convice me that the way I find comfortale is somehow not good?

I'm not I'm just countering your argument that using a priority mode would restrict creativity. Its just a different way of controlling the same thing.

Set the aperture you want, quick butchers at the RGB histogram, get the furthest peak on the right nearly clipping by adjusting the shutter speed and hey presto spot on exposure

Unless, y'know, you don't just want an exposure that fills the histogram. Maybe you want to clips some highlights or drop some blacks.

Yeah but he said that clipping the right most peak meant 'spot on' exposure.. I'm still not understanding the implications of historgrams very well.

My reaction is that there are too many variables, both internal and external, and that fixing one point [i]must[/i] restrict movement and creativity, or they wouldn't put so many options on the camera in the first place. All IMHO.

Yes.. you only select the option to fix that if that's what you want. After all, you want a photo that is exposed enough to see. So that's a constraint right there.

It's just a convenience that's all. So if the sun comes out and you decide you want to do a high speed shot of a fast rider with bits of gravel flying up in the air, you can just whack the exposure from 1/30 to 1/800 and snap - the camera will make sure the pic is still visible.

Just saying that S mode can be useful that's all.

Personally I just can't be arsed doing the mental maths to work out exposures.

Me neither. But handily, on the screen it tells me if I'm over or under exposing and I can adjust until the exposure is how I like it, or select Tv or Av modes, then tell it to over or under expose by a certain amount leaving me free to concentrate on shutter speed or DoF as I choose.

I know very little about the technical side of photography, but I know what I like and I like learning how to achieve it 🙂

Yeah but he said that clipping the right most peak meant 'spot on' exposure.. I'm still not understanding the implications of historgrams very well.

[img] [/img]

Left is dark/black, right is bright/white (or vice versa on some systems)
The height is the amount of the image which is that brightness.

The dark and bright are absolute limits.

A big peak squashed up against the dark edge means lots of your image is completely black with no detail in it.

A big peak squashed up against the bright edge means lots of your image is completely white, "blown highlights" with no detail in it.

Tijuana Taxi's approach means your exposure is as bright as it can be without any (significant) blown highlights.

Read: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/understanding-histograms.shtml

..or select Tv or Av modes, then tell it to over or under expose by a certain amount leaving me free to concentrate on shutter speed or DoF as I choose.

Which is exactly what I was proposing. 🙂

Tijuana Taxi's approach means your exposure is as bright as it can be without any (significant) blown highlights.

That's what I thought.. but that's going to lead to bright pictures. Which you may not want! Getting most of it in the middle means a neutral exposure doesn't it?

It's just a convenience that's all. So if the sun comes out and you decide you want to do a high speed shot of a fast rider with bits of gravel flying up in the air, you can just whack the exposure from 1/30 to 1/800 and snap - the camera will make sure the pic is still visible.

So you make that change from rider 1 to rider 2, rider 2 is wearing a white shirt, rider 3 comes along wearing a black shirt or the sun disappears again. You still want 1/800sec, what do you do? I'm more concerned about the rider than the background. For me I find it a lot simpler to use manual 100% for action shots and auto for the podiums because I can't be ar5ed... 😆

Are you trying to say that one mode is [b]better[/b] than another?

You still want 1/800sec, what do you do?

If you are in S mode, you don't have to do anything. The camera will still expose correctly.

I'm more concerned about the rider than the background

That's what spot metering is for.

So you make that change from rider 1 to rider 2, rider 2 is wearing a white shirt, rider 3 comes along wearing a black shirt or the sun disappears again. You still want 1/800sec, what do you do?

Carry on at f5.6, & 1/125 becasue I'm using a remote strobe, actually.....

8)

(Or if I do need a bit more exposure, I'll knock it back to 1/100th maybe)

Getting most of it in the middle means a neutral exposure doesn't it?

Or conversely it means most of your image is average grey and uninteresting 😀

Basically there is no ultimately "correct exposure" there is only the exposure that matches what you want.

So you make that change from rider 1 to rider 2, rider 2 is wearing a white shirt, rider 3 comes along wearing a black shirt or the sun disappears again. You still want 1/800sec, what do you do?

I wouldn't do anything for the sun disappearing, because presumably I am in S mode so the camera will open up the aperture itself to compensate (and some can even be set to increase the ISO if you don't have enough aperture available).

For the black shirt, well if I wanted him to be brighter than the last guy then I'd just add a stop to the exposure compensation.

The contrast on my TV doesn't alter the depth of field. It doesn't introduce motion blur or freeze the action. It doesn't make the scene lighter or darker. It doesn't introduce noise.

That's the directors job!

I use the RGB histogram which I find far better for accurate exposure than the light/dark one.
Just get the one of the three peaks that is closest to the right nearly touching seems to work for me

Also a good idea to set the shutter speeds in smaller increments than whole stops for finer adjustment

Bearing in mind most of my shots are landscapes hence setting the aperture to one of my choice