[Closed] Digital Addiction

No that everything is "on demand" we get greedy, and there is more content that you can possibly absorb if left unchecked imo.

Same with libraries. Blimmin full with free books on demand. Not like the old days when a book cost a month's wages..

😉

Alright. Some good points have been made, but let me take a different tack...

The other day in Cardiff, in honour of Roald Dahl's 100th birthday, Fantastic Mr Fox did a tightrope walk between two buildings in city centre. There was almost no one - that is, not a single person - who was actually watching the event unfold. Instead pratically every arm was in the air, holding up an iPhone, recording the thing.

Now, pardon the reference, but I remember back in 1991, when U2 was doing the whole 'ZooTV' theme, and Bono gave an interview for US Magazine. In it, he said that when the band was first making a name for itself, kids would try to clamber up the wall at Windmill Lane studios to catch a glimpse of them. Over time, this changed so that kids stopped trying to see them, and started just hold camcorders up to film them. And Bono asked, 'What's the point? If they just want to see us through a screen, why not just watch TV?'

So instead of real, direct experience, we're substituting a technological mediation of experience.

zippykona pretty much makes my point exactly on [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/how-often-do-you-watch-your-go-pro-footage ]this thread[/url], when he says:

I appreciate the professional stuff we see on here but it does get to a point of the recording being more important than the actual event.

Over time, this changed so that kids stopped trying to see them, and started just hold camcorders up to film them.

A very minor quibble. They've still paid £100 a ticket and gone there for a live experience. Just because they're holding a phone in one hand, doesn't make a lot of difference IMO.

So instead of real, direct experience, we're substituting a technological mediation of experience.

or we've traded individual exclusivity of an experience for the generosity to share it.

I've seen people recording gigs on full-sized iPads. First against the wall when I'm in charge.

The ST went in favour of my first PC

[url= http://www.retrohq.co.uk/ ]My bro is still playing with his ST (and other retro stuff)...[/url]

[i]They've still paid £100 a ticket and gone there for a live experience. Just because they're holding a phone in one hand, doesn't make a lot of difference IMO[/i]

It does to the people who can't see the actual event for all the ****ing phone screens in front of them.

It does to the people who can't see the actual event for all the **** phone screens in front of them.

What if the phone screens were all playing little MPGs of cigarette lighters

[img] [/img]

What if the phone screens were all playing little MPGs of cigarette lighters

Good idea, I miss all the lighters for ballads at rock gigs!

Firstly, digital is not necessarily bad. That article is clickbait. Like anything else, it’s how you parent it. And I don’t believe in arbitrary time deadlines. You wouldn’t want that imposed on you, would you? If you were in the middle of a TV show or near the end of a book, would you want it shut off immediately? That would be awful for us, so it’s just as awful for them.

We play mostly Minecraft on PS3 on the single family telly. This makes it a social activity, and we all join in. Likewise telly. The kids play early on weekend mornings (remember the shite TV we used to watch?) and often after we get back from doing something out and about. The kids are creative types, and they build beautiful stuff in creative mode in the game, so they are treating it like an interactive art medium. Are you going to tell me that’s a bad thing?

It does become addictive and obsessive for our eldest though if we aren't careful. We’ve talked about it with her. The more she plays, the more obsessed and unreasonable she becomes. But we give her more time than some (sometimes 2-3 hours a day depending) which is enough to allow her to get into it and develop what she wants to do, but enough not to let her get out of control. If she does, that’s when we restrict by not letting her start. In that game, she is in charge, and she is building grand projects to her own designs. She builds stuff for us, and shows us what she’s done which is lovely.

However giving kids free reign on an iPad isn’t anything like what we used to do on our early 8-bit computers. Games then were crude, incredibly limited in scope and not that addictive really. But importantly, we could create our own based on those same concepts, and they’d look similar, so we did. We could do what they did. That’s quite hard nowadays.

You need to manage their experience. After all, on here we go all misty eyed thinking about our middle class kids going all Swallows and Amazons, but are we so enamoured with feral chav kids wandering around getting into trouble?

Being lost in something for ages can be a glorious thing - book, outdoor play, indoor play, game, whatever. We want to foster that feeling, but whilst she's too young to control it herself we're monitoring it ourselves.

However giving kids free reign on an iPad isn’t anything like what we used to do on our early 8-bit computers. Games then were crude, incredibly limited in scope and not that addictive really. But importantly, we could create our own based on those same concepts, and they’d look similar, so we did. We could do what they did. That’s quite hard nowadays.

Sure, the world's changed. A lad I know got into stop motion animation on his phone which he'd publish on youtube. Led to a proper job. The possibilities are endless and not necessarily obvious.

Good point. That kind of thing would have been utterly inaccessible to me when I was a kid.

Instead pratically every arm was in the air, holding up an iPhone, recording the thing.

That's just people being dicks. Many millions more have the same devices and don't act like that. See also guns, cars, etc.

How are your kids coming on with the cutting and stacking then OP?

As a fellow parent I try to limit my little cherubs' axe time to a couple of hours a day. I used to let them have free reign but I was spending too much time down A&E in the end.

It's great to hear about people developing their love for videogames into a career. Just for balance, I got [i]really[/i] into computer games as a teen but had zero aptitude for the programming side of things - and jacked it all in at 17 in favour of pubs, mountain biking and a GF.

That didn't do much for my career either TBF, but I think it was the right choice.

Sensationalist article, but I don't think there's any pressing need to expose kids to computer technology. In my experience they'll learn how to use a computer in about 5 minutes when they need to.
I think there is value in spending more time on the non electronic options when they are wee. Learning to read books teaches patience, concentration and imagination, because it's not instant sensory reward. Scribbling on bits of paper involves all sorts of hand eye coordination and motor skills that even the cleverest tablet game doesn't come close to providing.

[i]What if the phone screens were all playing little MPGs of cigarette lighters[/i]

That only happens at shit gigs, so I wouldn't care 😉

In my experience they'll learn how to use a computer in about 5 minutes when they need to.

The old idea of exposing kids to computers isn't such a deal any more (if it ever was). They can use iPad games very easily with 2 mins head start, but that does nothing to help them set up a network, use Excel or write enterprise Java.

Scribbling on bits of paper involves all sorts of hand eye coordination and motor skills that even the cleverest tablet game doesn't come close to providing.

I wouldn't bet on that. Simple crap tablet games yeah maybe, but proper games require highly developed timing and co-ordination skills.

Scribbling on bits of paper involves all sorts of hand eye coordination and motor skills that even the cleverest tablet game doesn't come close to providing.

I lost the ability to write or draw years ago. Last week I discovered I could no longer write my signature (or not the same one in three places in one document).

I doubt writing or drawing will be a thing in 20 years.

We've consoles in this house and my kids still ride bikes, play games outside, play cricket, harriers and even stack wood.

It's utter bollocks that kids sit all day glued to consoles.

molgrips - Member

Games then were crude, incredibly limited in scope and not that addictive really. But importantly, we could create our own based on those same concepts, and they’d look similar, so we did. We could do what they did. That’s quite hard nowadays.

It isn't really, with modding and game design software. And coding a game from scratch is something practically nobody did in the Good Old Days

I used to code crude little code demos and mini games. Rubbish of course, but they were complete in that they did things. I didn't have to worry about designing sprites, for example.

I imagine that it'd be a lot harder to use a game API to mod something, although I'e never tried that. I have done a lot of modding things with APIs for work mind.

There's other related stuff. My 14yo Aussie nephew has a server farm in his bedroom cobbled together from used components that he hosts game servers on (amongst other things).

My bro is still playing with his ST (and other retro stuff)...

Oddly enough, I acquired an STe the other week. Not I just need to work out how to switch it on...

How are your kids coming on with the cutting and stacking then OP?

As a fellow parent I try to limit my little cherubs' axe time to a couple of hours a day. I used to let them have free reign but I was spending too much time down A&E in the end.

To be clear, when I say stuff like this, I am partly kidding. I don't want to have to start using too many emoticons, but you lot may force me.

EDIT: 😉

I bought my son a Tesco Huddle when he was 6 1/2. The beauty of the Huddle is the really crap battery life, it basically mean you don't have to parent them as the battery will run out in half an hour and they don't put it on charge they just drop it somewhere and go out side for a kick about!!

My bro is still playing with his ST (and other retro stuff)...

Just looked at the site. That's an ingenious project he's got on the go.

To the OP: Whilst I agree with your sentiment that kids should find interests outside of digital media, they will still need to learn how to operate and contribute in an increasingly digital World. It wouldn't do them any favours not to have gadgets lying around for them to play with, IMO.

molgrips: not many people are going to be knocking out the next Call of Duty on their own in their bedroom, but the modding community certainly has plenty of folk putting together some very impressive stuff (e.g. the popular [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DayZ_(mod) ]zombie-survival game DayZ[/url] was a one-man mod of Arma 2).

For younger kids it's pretty easy to [url= https://scratch.mit.edu/starter_projects/ ]knock out a basic sprite based game in Scratch[/url].

It's utter bollocks that kids sit all day glued to consoles.

I can't agree.
At a recent birthday family meal at a restaurant, paid for by the birthday celebrator , the 15yo son of a guest didn't blink an eye when he explained to me how, throughout the school summer holidays, he spent everyday, from 8:00am to 10:00pm, online, playing FIFA or COD, with rushed meal breaks the only time off.
His parents seemed to accept it.
I was astounded.
Even during the meal, he left the table to go to the loo but took his phone and only came back some 30 minutes later having caught up online. His absence was so obvious and lengthy that I sort of felt embarrassed for the parents but they sort of shrugged their shoulder, "what do you do..."

having said all that, I am toying with the possibility of getting Rock Jnr a Lego Mind Storm for Christmas as I can't help but think that aside from trades and vocational skills, there won't be many careers outside of IT/automation etc.
He wants to be a fighter pilot but even that, possibly, will not be needed in 15 years time.

Stuff like this is an answer to the comment about living someone elses experience in digital. Best use of internet I've seen in ages.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/news-features/son-doong-cave/2/#s=pano37

For the kid playing CoD and FIFA, sounds excessive, but kids playing online games learn communication skills that are invaluable in an office.

For IT support, a voip headset and screen share app is so much more useful than a desk phone, most kids learn this stuff playing games, not to mention some of the Team Skills in MMOs where Co-Op is needed to win.

We have two new graduates at the moment and the gamer has right from the start been able to easily switch communication methods and work in a team, the non-gamer is less able.

Trick is to teach the self control, same trick it's been for years trying to get kids to learn to do the right thing and the right time and not one thing all the time.

Even during the meal, he left the table to go to the loo but took his phone and only came back some 30 minutes later having caught up online. His absence was so obvious and lengthy that I sort of felt embarrassed for the parents but they sort of shrugged their shoulder, "what do you do..."

Hardly the exclusive domain of kids though, is it. I see people "go for lunch together" at work all the time, and they sit at the same table worrying at their phones for an hour.

Not that I've any room to talk, I'm in the kitchen at work right now typing on my laptop whilst waiting for my lunch to ding.

I wouldn't bet on that. Simple crap tablet games yeah maybe, but proper games require highly developed timing and co-ordination skills.

With a piece of paper, a kid can scribble a drawing, learning the fine motor skills of manipulating a pen or pencil. They can tear it into pieces, roll it up or fold it 3 dimensionally. They can stick it to other things, etc, etc. That activity engages all sorts of imagination and physical spatial skills, and you need to work a bit for your reward.
However clever a tablet game is, you are still pushing pixels in a 2D physical plane, within the boundaries defined by the games programmer. Nothing wrong with computer games at all, but I don't think they are as important as core play skills.

In my opinion, if you want to develop good enterprise Java programmers, I would start by teaching kids to be creative, imaginative problem solvers. Sticking them in front of a computer is far less important.

Teenager who doesn't want to spend time doing boring adult stuff. Can't say that's new.

In my opinion, if you want to develop good enterprise Java programmers, I would start by teaching kids to be creative, imaginative problem solvers.

I definitely wouldn't want to inflict that fate on my kids!

They can tear it into pieces, roll it up or fold it 3 dimensionally. They can stick it to other things, etc, etc. That activity engages all sorts of imagination and physical spatial skills, and you need to work a bit for your reward.
However clever a tablet game is, you are still pushing pixels in a 2D physical plane

I agree that physical play is good (and the two are not mutually exclusive) but I think you are under-estimating what games [i]can[/i] involve.

A tablet game could have you moving the tablet on 3-axes, whilst tapping or making multi-finger gestures on the screen and reacting to dynamic events signalled by visual, audio or touch cues.

Or of course, you can just fold paper:
[img] [/img]

you are still pushing pixels in a 2D physical plane

Not really. Lots of 3D games around where the plane of the tablet is only a representation of 3D space. I'm not saying it's more or less important to a child's development - how could I when we don't know what the end result of development is meant to be?

I'm not advocating excluding anything. Kids should fold paper, paint, dig, all the rest of it AND play tablet games, both fun and educational.

I heard an old story that when the US air force was training pilots in some allied country in the middle east they found that controlling the planes (with a little joystick in the right hand) was pretty easy for the American students to learn because they'd grown up learning fine motor control on computer games, and much harder for those who hadn't. Not sure if true, but it's plausible. And yes I know they have computers in the middle east.

Actually the US and UK military use off-the-shelf Xbox/Playstation/Wii game controllers (or ruggedised proprietary copies of them) to control things like drones and bomb disposal robots.

https://www.wired.com/2008/07/wargames/

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Makes sense really - the pilots are familiar with them and they are readily available.

With reference to the XKCD cartoon (and another one I can never find which makes the same point),

The reason this is so contentious is, it's all so new. Parents didn't have iPads when they were kids, so the long-term effects are unknown and won't be until it's too late. And parents being parents, most will want the best for their little darling / hellspawn (delete where applicable). Kids growing up with tablets is the unknown, and the unknown is something to be treated with suspicion, feared even.

Thing is, we've been here before. Every generation has seen new things that We Didn't Have When We Were Growing Up, and every generation was scared. Before tablets it was computer games rotting your brain; before that, video; television; rock & roll; if you go back far enough we were burning books.

And you know what? All those kids who listened to punk music, watched grainy VHS video 'nasties', found hedgerow grumble, read Harry Potter, played Grand Theft Auto, hung out in arcades... they all turned out ok. And the ones that didn't, the ones you see in the headlines as "shooting spree caused by [demonised thing de jour]", they were broken in the head to start with.

The analogy does not necessarily hold though. Sooner or later something will be invented that kids think is cool but will kill them.

Oh wait... Cigarettes.. drugs.. umm...

We'll be burning those next.

Not really. Lots of 3D games around where the plane of the tablet is only a representation of 3D space.

I'd still call that a 2D physical plane.

I remember watching my son starting to play with Lego, and just lining up bricks and snapping them together was a challenge initially. I hadn't really thought about that before. I bet I could have sat him in front of Minecraft and he would have effortlessly assembled virtual block piles.

I bet not.

lost the ability to write or draw years ago. Last week I discovered I could no longer write my signature (or not the same one in three places in one document).
I doubt writing or drawing will be a thing in 20 years.

In my current job, working through an agency, I have to use old-skool NCR forms to record details of the cars I'm picking up and transporting, whereas the self-employed 'platers' use custom software on smartphones, and on a number of occasions the person signing off the pickup or delivery has commented how it's really nice to have forms with legible writing!
The thing is, though, is that the majority of drivers are edging into middle age, so I think the ability to write neatly has been gradually diminishing for years, not being considered particularly important.
My handwriting was pretty shonky when I left school, I was taught a form of copperplate cursive, which is difficult to write neatly quickly, whereas other mates were taught an italic style, which I really envied, so I've taught myself to develop a style which is neat and reasonably easy to write fairly quickly; working in print/publishing I had to be able to communicate changes to text clearly, which I'm keen to maintain.
I'm not sure that handwriting will die completely, what with proper fine-point styli being developed for touch-screen phones/tablets.
Things have certainly changed a lot in the fifty or so years since I was a nipper, but perhaps not so much in other ways.