MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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In light of the terrible thing that has just happened in Brussels, and the discussion on the other thread about security measures (x-ray at airport entrances, etc.), I can't help but wonder if something I raised a long time ago on here regarding different approaches to policing would actually make a difference to the movement of terrorists.
What I am thinking is this:
In Canada and the US, the police are out on the road all the time. Indeed, you can hardly drive down a highway without seeing at least one fully-radar-equipped patrol car every 50kms or so. What's more, every one of those patrol cars also has a computer on their consoles that lets the officer call up your reg plate and see a record of every contact the car-owner has ever had with the law, including whether or not his/her insurance is still valid. Officers also do not need a cause to stop you for a spot check. Importantly - and especially considering both countries have a pretty strong libertarian tradition - this is not considered an imposition on personal freedom or privacy.
In light of this, I continue to find it amazing that I can - and do - drive from Dunkerque to Poland or Spain without once encountering an officer of the law - whether police, passport control, customs, or even transport control.
As a convinced pro-EU person, of course, I love this... BUT, I also wonder if it doesn't facilitate a variety of criminal activity both across and within European borders.
Anyway, just a thought. [In the meantime, if this seems inappropriate in the wake of what has just happened, feel free to ignore or have deleted.]
The views of people in law enforcement would be especially interesting to know.
EDIT: I should add that I don't imagine that any one thing will stop terrorism and other forms of criminal activity; I am just wondering about the effect a change in approach would have.
Well, there's a few issues.
In the US, they don't have speed cameras, so traffic enforcement is a bigger part of the job. I also suspect that population distribution is a factor. In the US, outside of cities the population is pretty spread out, and at least in the Mid West it's pretty calm out there so the cops seem to spend more time cruising around in cars, which is when you see them. If you want to see cops, go round Cardiff City Centre when there's football on, or even any Friday night. Probably just a distribution of activity thing.
Also - in the UK at least, there are quite a few plain-clothes cars around that you don't notice.
Re spot checking - this can be abused by those of a racist persuasion. US cops don't seem overly bothered by that, if the news is anything to go by.
In Canada and the US, the police are out on the road all the time. Indeed, you can hardly drive down a highway without seeing at least one fully-radar-equipped patrol car every 50kms or so. What's more, every one of those patrol cars also has a computer on their consoles that lets the officer call up your reg plate and see a record of every contact the car-owner has ever had with the law, including whether or not his/her insurance is still valid. Officers also do not need a cause to stop you for a spot check. Importantly - and especially considering both countries have a pretty strong libertarian tradition - this is not considered an imposition on personal freedom or privacy.
Great, except you end up with the same issues as stop and search has in this country, people get pulled over for offences such as DWB.
This then precipitates things like the LA riots. And America has i's fair share of 'patriots' (aka, religious fundamentalist training camps in the woods).
In light of this, I continue to find it amazing that I can - and do - drive from Dunkerque to Poland or Spain without once encountering an officer of the law - whether police, passport control, customs, or even transport control.
Which is oddly the opposite of my experience, OK so the only time I did it was 2006 during the world cup, but we traveled from Poland, down through Hungary, Chech Republic, Austria, Germany, France and I think I showed my passport at every train station, to police on the train, and at motorway border crossings.
i'd hazard a guess that more people get shot in the US today than blown up in Brussels.
US crime rates are shocking. Not a good model to copy.
Our licence plates are for the vehicle, not the driver.every one of those patrol cars also has a computer on their consoles that lets the officer call up your reg plate and see a record of every contact the car-owner has ever had with the law, including whether or not his/her insurance is still valid.
The UK is festooned with ANPR cameras that can check usage and movement of untaxed vehicles. Many at roadside/bridges but also in Police Traffic cars.
Liberty is the first casualty of terrorism - we should always be on guard to this fact.
States will always use this excuse to remove our liberty (and break international law on torture!)
In light of this, I continue to find it amazing that I can - and do - drive from Dunkerque to Poland or Spain without once encountering an officer of the law
That's cos you're not a terrorist
So how much safer are you in the US? Seem to have a much higher murder rate and more violent crime.
So how much safer are you in the US? Seem to have a much higher murder rate and more violent crime.
I couldn't really comment on the US situation, other than to have suggested that their policing is similar to the style I do know, which is Canadian. And in Canada, things feel pretty safe.
I suppose, though, that this feeling would need to be evaluated on a statistical basis.
Officers also do not need a cause to stop you for a spot check.
Having recently watched several US crime dramas, I thought they needed a reason to pull you over (however tenuous)?
That said, I think we will see a suspension of the Shengen agreement - with increased border controls across the continent.
https://www.unodc.org/gsh/en/data.html
Stats here
Top link, us is about 4x the murder rate of the UK. Canada is slightly higher than UK. Perhaps there is a lot more to do with it than the perception.
How much of that is policing and how much geography? I'd maybe compare it to the Scandinavian countries which are in Shengen and also [i]feel[/i] pretty safeAnd in Canada, things feel pretty safe.
I'd maybe compare it to the Scandinavian countries which are in Shengen and also feel pretty safe
Perhaps, but remember: this isn't just about Schengen; it's about an active policing strategy that involves the law being visibly engaged on the streets and roads of the various countries, observing and talking to people.
I believe working coppers are not allowed to tell you that there aren't enough working coppers. And maybe they'd prefer not to be dealing with football crowds and late-night drunks.
ANPR, mobile and static, picks up number plates that might be of interest.
But the stats show your "active policing strategy" isnt achieving very much. Maybe it's better not to make folk feel like things are so unsafe that everyone wants a gun for self-defence.
And yet the UK has a much lower crime and murder rate than the US. So how does that stack up.
But the stats show your "active policing strategy" isnt achieving very much. Maybe it's better not to make folk feel like things are so unsafe that everyone wants a gun for self-defence.
Your legitimate point is tarnished by the fact that you seem to be confusing the US with Canada. In 30 years of having lived in Canada, neither I, nor anyone I ever consorted with wanted a 'gun for self-defence'. 🙄
Unless I am missing something in what you said...
Sorry, I was following up [i]your[/i] OP. So, why is the murder rate higher in Canada than in the UK despite the [i]visible [/i] active policing policy ?
SaxonRider - Member
What I am thinking is this:
In Canada and the US, the police are
I think it's to do with how you started.
That and with similar policing strategies the US and Canada have vastly different crime stats. That and things like murder rate are similar (with Canada being at the high end of eu) so your comparisons are a bit off.
30 guns per 100 people in Canada. 3x the world average
To clarify, then: Let's remove the US from the equation. I only mentioned them in the beginning because, at least superficially, their policing looks similar to Canada's.
30 guns per 100 people in Canada. 3x the world average
25,000 Grizzly bears in Canada.
More than 16 x the amount in the whole of the Continental United States (excluding Alaska.)- approx 1500
None in Europe.
Just Sayin' 😀
So, if policing policy in the US and Canada is similar but outcomes are different, what conclusion can you draw regarding said policing policy?
Murder rate
Canada 1.6/100,000
UK 1/100,000
Any other stats to back yours up?
30 guns per 100 people in Canada. 3x the world average
I would guess that many people living outside of the cities have guns due to the prevalence of dangerous wildlife, including [url= http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/bear-mauls-manitoba-man/article24357347/ ]bears[/url], [url= http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/bc-couple-call-for-forbearance-in-wake-of-cougar-attack/article15130378/ ]cougars[/url], and [url= http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/wolves-kill-4-dogs-in-beach-country-north-of-winnipeg-1.3238252 ]wolves[/url].
Not really a fair comparison considering that, outside of Siberia, I doubt there are many places on earth in a similar situation. In any case, rural Canadians may own guns, but I can assure you in absolute terms that Canada in no way shape or form has a 'gun culture' anywhere approximating the US.
OK so what about the crime stats, anything you have to say Canada has less crime?
Currently working in the US... As far as I can tell it is against your rights for speed cameras or red light cameras to be deployed. This was tested in the courts in the county I am in.
There are cops of various types everywhere but they don't seem to stop the drunk drivers or the people traveling in the back of a pick up of van (with the doors open).
When they do stop people they have the right to strip and internally search you without requiring a reason but it is unlikely to get this far as if you protest you will get pepper sprayed, tasered or worse.
The cops seem to be afraid of the people, the people are afraid of each other and also the police force supposedly protecting them...
I lived in some pretty crappy parts of London and there was not such a culture of fear...
The US police/justice system is currently monetising traffic stops, there are plenty of horror stories about the way the US system currently works, it looks horrendous.
[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/policing-philosophies ]This thread[/url] contains some of the statistical evidence for some of my thoughts.
Very limited stats mostly comparison of greater Manchester to Edmonton, are they similar cities?
On the headline murder rate Canada is 60% higher than the UK.
In light of this, I continue to find it amazing that I can - and do - drive from Dunkerque to Poland or Spain without once encountering an officer of the law - whether police, passport control, customs, or even transport control.
Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't see you. Static cameras can scan number plates.
In light of this, I continue to find it amazing that I can - and do - drive from Dunkerque to Poland or Spain without once encountering an officer of the law - whether police, passport control, customs, or even transport control.
your phone will be transmitting its location all the way, your number plate will be picked up on ANPR. if they wanted to know where you are, they would/.
Living in Canada for 30 years probably explains why you're a "convinced pro-EU person" .... you haven't got the faintest idea how or why the EU model has weakened UK security. And I bet you still get to vote in the referendum FFS.
I think that the mention of the US has thrown up a different issue.
It is undoubtedly the case that easy cross border travel aids crime of any sort. Even with Interpol etc a criminal, especially for less serious crimes or something where no clues are available, will be able to act further away from their home and will thus be less likely to be apprehended.
To my mind, the need for increased control is there. I see no need at all for anyone to object to this. freedom only comes with responsibility and humans are not that especially.
The idea of freedom has long been removed anyway. I can't carry my pocket knife, I have to wear a seatbelt or motorcycle helmet crash helmet so I fail to see any problem with some controls on more minor issues that affect me much less and less frequently eg border controls. With an increase in terrorism it seems to be a small price to pay for the freedom not to be killed.
muggin-borders+terrorism+ukip-seatbelts/certaindeath*pocketknives=FRRRRRRRREEEDOOOOOOM!!!
OK.
With an increase in terrorism it seems to be a small price to pay for the freedom not to be killed.
The status from the US was that more Americans kill each other than terrorism.
Terrorism is a big loud and nasty thing but how does it compare to the chances of harm from normal life. Lots of the terror suspects were eu nationals from close to the attacks. What changes would you make?
In light of this, I continue to find it amazing that I can - and do - drive from Dunkerque to Poland or Spain without once encountering an officer of the law - whether police, passport control, customs, or even transport control.
The ones in Germany are unmarked. Well some are. Sometimes you see a customs van doing random stops. Other times it'll be a plain, shiny Audi A4, and the only give away sign is the scrolling LED sign in the back window that'll flash up "Polizei, bitte folgen ---->" when they decide it's your turn for a random check.
(Also Zoll, bitte folgen if it's a customs check).
enfht - Member
Living in Canada for 30 years probably explains why you're a "convinced pro-EU person" .... you haven't got the faintest idea how or why the EU model has weakened UK security. And I bet you still get to vote in the referendum FFS.
Thanks for that. Because 14 years of living in the UK, and being the son of a German father and British mother, together with being a bit of a political news-obsessive taught me nothing about the EU model.
And yes, I get to vote in the referendum. Amazing what citizenship allows one to do nowadays.
FFS.
FFS.
If you're not one of us, you're only a suntan and a beard away from being one of them.
😆
you haven't got the faintest idea how or why the EU model has weakened UK security
Neither have you, but I am sure it makes you feel all warm and cosy inside believing in a fake utopian past.
Cripes, they're all out today. Must be day release.