loddrick, not so much bankrupting the NHS as randomly bankrupting a proportion of families. At one point the Tories had a surprisingly humane idea of limiting the cost to a max 30k but that seems to have got quietly dropped.
In hospital there used to be a DNR on the sheet at the bottom of the bed, they should bring that back if it's not in force now.
Too much emphasis on prolonging life, it should be quality not quantity.
Very good post, PJay. You can write the Death Education syllabus!
My cousin works for a couple of sister charities, Dignity in Dying - campaigning for assisted dying, and Compassion in Dying - supporting people to use their existing rights within the law to make advanced decisions about care.
Compassion in Dying have just launched and new campaign to educate and facilitate people to make these sorts of decisions. The family of Miles Kemp are supporting this campaign, you might see it pop up in your news feed, especially now the GoogleFaceBorg know you've been reading this thread!
Exactly the kind of story people have been discussing here: Miles was 29 when a snowboarding accident left him in a minimally-conscious state, which he remained in for 5 years. His family knew he wouldn't have wanted to be kept alive in that condition but as he has never recorded his wishes in an Advance Decision, his family were powerless to do anything. They are really passionate about letting people - especially younger people who never expect an accident to happen to them - know about the importance of thinking about what treatment and care you'd want in a similar situation and crucially recording your wishes in an Advance Decision.
Campaign site with quick link to request more information: http://www.makeityourdecision.org.uk/
http://compassionindying.org.uk/
http://www.dignityindying.org.uk/
Sincerely hope this doesn't fall foul of spam rules, I can't think of a more appropriate set of links to post on here while we're all talking about it.
Using P-Jay's Deathlink (although these type of things are bobbins, right?)
92 ... 50 years left
Not at the half way point yet... result.... reckon I can have a cheeky bacon butty tomorrow on the back of that 😀
Its a fine line between saving a life and prolonging a death, and in too many cases modern medicine and ethics makes death a long drawn out affair of misery and a complete lack of dignity. I believe if of sane mind people should be able to sign up to opt out at any given time.
I'm scared of both 1) dying and 2) dying in pain.
It's the uncertainty as to what, if anything, happens afterwards which bothers me most.
Some people respond to death by ringing the crap out of life.
Others think it just makes everything we achieve meaningless and absurd.
I have not had a near to death experience, but I had a moment in my life when I was close to ending up in intensive care. I remember feeling completely at peace. Having read up on NDEs, that seems to be a common theme.
It's the uncertainty as to what, if anything, happens afterwards which bothers me most
Same for me, I have a recurring nightmare of ceasing to exist, I guess that's one reason some people turn to religion in later life - someone nice who tells you there's more after this with a few thousand years of ‘evidence’ to back it up, why not eh?
When I was younger the thought of dying didn't bother me, I even did that horrible cliché thing of saying I’d rather cash in my chips than get old. Not any more – acceptance can help, a lot of old people who can’t do much for themselves anymore, are still pretty happy I was surprised to find. You can still get a smile out of a 96 year old who hasn’t taken a step unaided in half a decade. I intend to be like that – I won’t be mugged off in old age into being left to fend for myself.
I suppose the only upside to the whole ceasing to exist version of death is, you never find out if it’s true.
Good post pjay.
Completely agree.
I would say that if health care professionals NEED to get good at something, its getting good at recognising frailty and the dying process, And then being completely realistic at the futility of the concept of PROLOGING life and aiming at IMPROVING the short remaining life.
This will involve NOT performing tests and treatments that have no benefit. Stopping unnecessary medicines, and providing care not medicine.
Unfortunately, society (patients, carers, the press) still believe that "doing everything" is kinder than "accepting nothing can be done to save them", when in fact the opposite is true.
Furthermore, we spend a huge proportion of the NHS budget on treating people in the last year of their life. When...in fact, palliation, comfort medicines, and pain relief, are VERY cheap.
We (health) REALLY Need to get better at is whole subject.
If you want interesting reads, Google:
BGS identifying frailty
And
NICE managing multiple morbidity.
(on crashing iPad so can't link!)
The content of those two papers is KEY to helping those in advanced stages of life...
That, or Logan's run. For real.
DrP
If you could know the date of your death would you want to know?
It would make pension planning a bit easier!
That, or Logan's run. For real.
If it involves a young Jenny Agutter, I'm in....
Anyone dead yet ?
A post from beyond would be interesting, let us know what its like.. like.
Having held the hands of three people who have died in the past year, two immediate family members, and one friend, P-Jay sums it up perfectly. I don't fear death but don't want a long drawn painful one. I'm not sentimental about houses, possessions etc, and have seen the pain relieving effects of morphine in terminal illness.
As for what happens after, well Pascal had a wager. My faith is focused on what you do today not post-life assurance for after.
Some interesting points and definitely no right or wrong views frm my perspective.
One thing I'd add about DNR's. You need to make sure everyone is absolutely aware that they are in force. My mum signed a DNR (she had bowel cancer) but unfortunately had a fall and knocked herself out and her friend called the ambulance. Friend didn't know about the DNR and ambulance crew missed the big yellow envelope (categorically NOT blaming the crew!)
The ambulance crew did a fantastic job, as did the intensive care unit and basically 'saved' her by intubating her and placing her on a machine to help her breathe. It turns out that once you have a tube in, it can't be removed unless you start to breathe by yourself or die regardless of your express wishes.
Anyway fast-forward 24h and my mum did start to breathe by herself - and when she came round was spectacularly unimpressed with both me and her sister for allowing this to happen 🙂
She 'lived' for another 2 months. Bowel cancer is not a great way to go (not that any way is).
planned my exit, what do you think of the ethics/effect on other people of my decision:cycle/walk to exposed area (if I'm not demented) enjoy my last bottle of Glendronnach, fall asleep.
Substantial sum of money left to Mountain Rescue for the recovery of my body.
Family seem happy with the arrangement, although of course they will not help me accomplish this for legal reasons.
John Beattie on Radio Scotland had a discussion on death as part of yesterdays programme. Someone came on and said almost exactly this!
Except he had made a deal with his son. He had to organise his removal from the mountain in return for being left the house, so as not to inconvenience anyone else. I don't think he was joking. 🙂
Ya gotta love it, at least there are some folks out there thinking about their demise and how THEY want to be treated pre/during/after the event.
Fabulous.
Seriously, this is heart warming.
Nicely put P-Jay, a lot of realism and sense in that post.
I remember feeling completely at peace. Having read up on NDEs, that seems to be a common theme.
I had a severe choking incident back in 2010 on a piece of chicken breast that went down the wrong way while I was working alone in the middle of nowhere. If I leant forward I could just about breathe but not enough to keep conscious for long. I carry a panic button as a matter of course with work so hit it and the operator called me on it's speaker, I just had enough breath to make some sort of sound so they knew I was in trouble and they sent an ambulance to my rough location. I remember being very calm and just staying in my bent double position as I went unconscious. Vision went black and white then slowly faded out, hearing went funny as in I only heard distinct sounds like the birds in the trees not the rumble of the train going past in the valley below. Very serene and no sense of pain or panic whatsoever. No sense of it ending, nothing. I know from the ambulance guy's report that they found me slumped on the floor not breathing at all and a very feint pulse, they listed 5 sets of 5 Heimlich manoeuvres before they threw me in the back of the ambulance, it was this throw that dislodged the chicken. A bit of mouth-to-mouth and I was breathing again. Apparently I came back, looked at the guy bent over me and said 'Oh.' then went to sleep!!
My plans and decision about my end was made before this happened but it did cement it in my mind that I was doing the right thing. Death is not to be feared, it will consume you regardless. Embrace it's inevitability and you can get on with life.
Today, I reviewed the music I'd chosen for a funeral. Not out of morbidity - just want to plan as much as I can, as when the time comes I want things to be easier for my family. Seeing as I want my funeral to be short anecdotes interspersed with secular music - the music is important.
I used to be worried about death. Now, not so much. Having spent a lot of time with my dad in his final days - I learnt a lot about facing the end with dignity and peace. Also, more strangely having sat with a pet as they died - it seemed to become a more normal part of life, a natural process.
Finally, in one of those times where wisdom comes from a strange place - in Star Trek, Spock once said "How we face death is at least as important as how we face life." Good advice IMHO.
Listen to Bert for he is wise and speaks the truth..
Few of you here with good intentions will be so hardy when the time comes..
I learnt when my mum was dying of cancer a few years ago that for all of us the big decisions in life are largely taken care of. In her final days I was more concerned about making sure that the little things; her favourite music, news about her friends and family etc were taken care of. Death comes to us all, try and be comfortable and content when it arrives.
Thank you P-Jay for the "
" post. Quality, and my respects to Mrs Jay, couldn't that for love nor money.It's some morbid shit isn't it
It's weird, innit - I still don't think I've fully accepted that one day I'll be dead, even though intellectually I fully recognise that I'm only kidding myself to think otherwise. Don't know if I particularly fear death itself - either we go on, which is ace, or we don't and I'll know nowt about it - but I fear whatever discomfort and pain I have before I shuffle off, and the distress I put my nearest through before I'm done dying. Breaks my heart to think of others - Mrs Pondo, my brother, family and friends - checking out before me, but for sure that'll happen if I live long enough. Sometimes seems like it's all a bit of a shitty joke where the punchline is terminally screeed up - might as well make the most while we're here, hey? 🙂
This thread reminded me of Billy Connolly's quote in 'What We Did On Our Holiday'. He's terminally ill and explaining his imminent death to a child:
I used to tickle him and he'd go, "No, no, no!" Then when I was finished, he'd go, "More, more, more, more!" Which sums up exactly how I feel about living.
I used to be on here a long time ago, but tend to lurk now.
I found that, after discovering I had a terminal prognosis, spend time on the Internet arguing about bike parts was a bit daft.
I am at peace with myself now. The grey areas are now black or white. My role is to make sure my actions are based on maintaining the dignity of others, retaining integrity in my decision making, and guiding those facing the same situation as my family and I. Being frightened is nothing to be ashamed of; it's what we do [i]when[/i] we are frightened that counts...
Having said all of this, I made a promise to my children that I would fight until breath became air, so I intend to honour that too.
Just come home after another night shift as a paramedic, and am heartened to be reading this over my cereal, prior to swan diving into bed. This is a conversation we have all too often in the cab between jobs, and a common sentiment is that as a society we just don't talk enough about death. Yet it sneaks up on all of us. It's as much of a life event biggie as being born all those years ago. Death makes life the mad, colourful, beautiful, heart-breaking adventure it is. So, bravo for this thread!
Some immensely readable, life-affirming even, reads on the subject include:
"Get Dead", by Jamie Oliver (not the chef) - a little coffee table book you'll return to over and over again
"Being Mortal", by Atul Gawande - a passionate plea to the medical and allied care professions to begin considering and prioritising quality of life over simply prolonging it at all costs
Both my copies are tatty from being lent to countless friends and colleagues over the years, and do well in bringing death out of the shadows and into the light where it truly belongs. They're not morbid - far from it. They'll make you think and laugh out loud.
Right, that's my sleep-deprived two pence-worth. There are some good insights on here. Keep them going. And whatever you do, please, please, PLEASE removed that red-bordered DNACPR form from its envelope, and leave it in plain view for your bleary-eyed ambulance crew to find prior to having to commence a brutal and undignified resuscitation attempt at 03:27am.
Have a great day. Night night!
I found that, after discovering I had a terminal prognosis, spend time on the Internet arguing about bike parts was a bit daft.
Very sorry to hear that.
Take care,
Jay
Having said all of this, I made a promise to my children that I would fight until breath became air, so I intend to honour that too.
This I can totally respect. And admire. #****cancer.
Bit of a thread resurrection I know but having just caught up on a few of the cancer threads, not the snappiest phrase, I'm feeling nothing but respect for those fighting it and quite humbled on many fronts.
I wasn't up to date on your status Mark (bullheart), and this applies to Juan and others, but I wish you ALL THE BEST wherever you all are on the journey. I've lost family, friends and colleagues to cancer but others have beaten it and/or survived many years so I live in hope that science saves more every day.
You are all utterly inspirational and in Mark's case you are also equally as mental :). Thank you for sharing your fight and your unbelievable spirit, great examples to us all of why we should be grateful for the good times and how to behave in the tough times.
don't think PJ's "moderate exorcize" is necessary!
for serious planning join exit international or read "the peaceful pill handbook" i have some vids as well that members kindly allowed to be taken when they had their last drink of a carefully researched concotion.. Not scary at all ..they all seemed at peace.
No i'm not weird either ..death should be more out in the open not hidden away in the closet.I'd be happy to be burnt on a bonfire like they do in India .certainly don't want anyone profiting from my passing.cheap and as simple a funeral as possible. i think the gov't should provide a service for all citizens who wish to be "disposed of" without great expense and fuss.
