[Closed] Death on the mountain the Tom Simpson story BBC4

Just watched that, didn't know much about him until this evening.

Anyone who takes 5 wraps of whizz and rides up the ventoux is asking for trouble but you've got to admire his determination!

Two things struck me as tragic 1. he was allowed to get back on the bike (did you see the state he was in?) 2. That his drug taking was allowed to get to the level where some kind of narcotic psychosis had taken hold. Very moving. That Ventoux looks like hell..

Stark and beautiful. Also quite shocking how honest they were about the drug taking that was/is endemic within elite cycling.

yes I've just been telling the gf about the drug taking within the sport

Does it make it (and you by association) seem more dangerous, and therefore more interesting to her.

She just feels that it's mad to push your body that hard let alone put that sort of shit into it as well.

i missed this. might try and watch it tomorrow night.

never taken any drugs on the bike but scoffing a battered mars bar from maxs turkish carryout in the eastgate after a ride up the mast aint any better!

..all topped off by a race up stephens brae with no warm up to finish it off (or finish all three of us off)

It's on again at 2.15am Thursday, get your lazy arse up and watch it, how was your ride round the loch??

yep, read about and seen pictures in books, seen bits of film, but that prog made him much more human.

Invernesians in the house?

yup

I think the drugs were tolerated because it wasn't seen as cheating just a way to try and get through it. Don't forget it was a 1000km longer then than now.

its worth remembering that amphetamine doesn't really give you any real performance increase in the same way that blood doping or epo does, it just keeps you going, and keeps those pedals turning.

Shame that such an icon and such an obviously talented and determined guy turned out to simply be a cheat in the end.

Berm - he was doing what was the norm at the time. A bit like when smoking wasn't seen to be damaging to your health. I certainly don't condone any form of drug taking, especially in sport, but applying your 2010 morals to something that was normal in 1967 isn't reasonable.

You'll have to try better than that Berm Bandit.

Berm Bandit - can he be a cheat if everyone else was doing it too, as they said in the film?

its worth remembering that amphetamine doesn't really give you any real performance increase in the same way that blood doping or epo does, it just keeps you going, and keeps those pedals turning.

Errrmm, in an endurance sport anything that gives you additional endurance is giving you a performance increase.

Berm Bandit - can he be a cheat if everyone else was doing it too, as they said in the film?

Yes. If everyone in F1 was hiding a turbocharger it's still cheating, even if the playing field is even, and it's forcing everyone else to cheat whether they want to or not, if they want to compete. There's nothing good about that, it's sad, selfish and stupid.

Berm - he was doing what was the norm at the time. A bit like when smoking wasn't seen to be damaging to your health. I certainly don't condone any form of drug taking, especially in sport, but applying your 2010 morals to something that was normal in 1967 isn't reasonable.

Did you not watch it? His own team mate was stating that he had expressed to TS that he should stop doing it and train harder instead, sounds a lot from that like TS's behaviour was entirely typical right??

I'm actually applying my 2010 morals to something that is normal in 2010. It was cheating in 1967 and its still cheating now. It is also why personally I have absolutely no interest in the dark side. I'm not interested in watching a bunch of lab rats making your normal club rider look average. What enthuses me is genuine awe inspiring excellence, much like the guys in Marin County on the preceding programme last night.

Your sort of "well its alright because everyone is doing it" attitude is precisely why its endemic, and also for that matter precisely why this guy, (who by all accounts needed to learn some endurance riding skills and discipline) rather than resort to drugs died.

"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

The title of Tom Simpson's book 'Cycling is My Life' does indicate how determind he was.

Talking of books, Put Me Back on My Bike by William Fotheringham, is worth reading too.

t is also why personally I have absolutely no interest in the dark side.

So why are you commenting on something related to 'the dark side'?

all that is required for trolling is for an idiot to post up
I am delighted to hear you advising him posthumously on what he should have done despite your admitted ignorance of the darkside....chapeau ! 🙄
BB No one is holding TS up as paragon or supporting the use of drugs in sport here. They are pointing out, as the programme did a number of times, that the entire peleton was at it. You are correct the darkside has a terrible reputation for drug cheating partly due to the fact they are asked to do near impossible physical endurance feats that are not within the reach of mortal man.

It was tragic to see the extent to which he was so determined to win that he pushed his body to this limits and it was criminal they helped him back on to the bike. His team leader should have intervened as well.

So why are you commenting on something related to 'the dark side'?

Because Tony Simpson rather than being the iconic figure that he should and could have been is, sadly, merely an affirmation of my viewpoint on the subject.

Junkyard: So my opinion which is on topic and absolutely valid albeit not popular is a troll because you disagree with it? (Incidentally, who said anything about ignorance on the subject or is this another of your assumptions??)

I think that the sad thing about Simpson was that his single mindedness and desire to set himself up financially made him forget everything else, including his own helath and long term fitness. All those modern moralists probably forget that in the 50s and 60s the use of "medication" was seen as doing things properly, look back all the way to the start of endurance athletics in the late 19th century when they used strichnine to keep 7 day race walkers out there walking (obviously it's a bit upsetting if you get the dose wrong as you die fairly soon after). Simpson's death was one of the first wake up calls to the dangers and problems in use of medication and did start the process.
Those of you who seem to think that its solely a road cycling problem conveniently forget the numbers of mtbers who've been caught - world champion anyone? and all those tennis players, golfists, rugby players and footballeristas who've had their names washed down the toilet after Operacion Puerto, whatever happened to them?
Road cycling is pretty much the only sport that is actually doing something about the problem - possibly destroying itself in the process mind. They could just go the way of American rounders and give people a 20 or 30 minute ban for the use of steroids and HGH - that'd be better wouldn't it?

most of the riders interviewed seemed to be denying taking/not mentioning their own habits regarding drugs, certainly his team mate was very critical of him using them (despite giving him a bottle of brandy for beakfast?!)

it was only the comentators that said drug use was prevalant

either those riders are in denial or ashamed?

and whether its perceived or real road cycling has a much stronger assosciation with drug taking than most other sports, and it certainly doesnt endear it to me - and many jo public types feel the same
though personally i dont like it because i find it a bit dull, i like my riding technical!

Junkyard: So my opinion which is on topic and absolutely valid albeit not popular is a troll because you disagree with it? (Incidentally, who said anything about ignorance on the subject or is this another of your assumptions??) ??)

It is your view that your opinion/assesment is valid clearly it it is not shared by myself or others.
Most trolls are OT or they dont really work - I accept you are not trolling and you actually do believe what you are saying'

It is also why personally I have absolutely no interest in the dark side

Personally I thought that it was a great programme, but it's probably worth bearing in mind that it's possible to enjoy a programme / documentary even if the subject is not somebody to whom you can relate. The best documentaries / biographies are interesting because you can't relate to the protagonists, so long as the documentary gives you something by which to understand why they did what they did.

For me, it was a fascinating snapshot of the sport 'at that time', not this, that opened up a little of how the peleton works, the camaraderie that operates outside of team borders, and the rules of fair play and honour within the professionals that the peleton operates by even when at the same time ignoring moral blindspots and contradictions (such as the drug taking).

I also liked the jersey sponsors - Gitanes, Pelforth, Mackesons ... a different time indeed with perhaps a very different moral compass.

I do fail to see why in some peoples eyes enjoying the documentary means that the subject is an icon, to be admired etc.

JY : I'm 54 and a life long cyclist. I have taken part in most disciplines with the exception of track. At club level my interest in road left me when I realised that the icons that I aspired to emulate were not in fact what I at first perceived them to be. In fact I could never aspire to be like them without taking drugs. Interest over. That seems like a perfectly reasonable attitude to me.

And before anyone starts to point to American rounders/runners etc., it did in fact kill off any desire to race/compete for the same reason. I became increasingly aware of the "win at all costs" menatility that many people display, and as a result I prefer to ride my bike with my mates and enjoy the crack rather than hoon about like behaving like an total arse to serve my ego.

Thus my comments regarding this poor fella who clearly lost sight of whats important in life and was consumed by a misguided concept of success.

And +1 for Adder's post above.

Junkyard - whilst I agree with most of your sentiments. I would like to pick you up on one point. I think your criticism of the "team leader", I presume you mean manager/director sportif, is quite harsh in the context. It is a few years since I read the book but I recall that they were racing as national teams so the Manager was a Brit with limited experience of the continental scene, so his authority over Simpson would have been quite limited. Can you imagine someone from the US cycling scene holding any sway over Lance Armstrong in a race?

i missed it does anyone know if its gonna be shown again? iplayer doesnt list it as available 🙁

I thought it was a great program. It's also made me want to ride the Ventoux, (not on speed mind, or in race conditions) the way it plays with you psychologically made it look a good challenge.

tony simpson!!!?

it's just that sort of incisive and informed comment on stw that has me regularly touching cloth with laughter

I watched some of it, but I'm attempting to ride Ventoux 3 times in one day on Sunday or Monday, so I figured it probably wasn't the best way to motivate myself.

It is on tonight/tomorrow morning at 2.15 am on BBC4 or thereabouts.

I rode the Ventoux last Easter from Bedoin. Its a hell of a climb. I cant imagine what it would be like mid summer.

What on earth was his team mate doing with a half bottle of brandy in his pocket? Did they still do bar raids for drinks in '67?

MCM - Yes, I met Hennie Kuiper a few years ago and he said he hung a bottle opener round his neck for bar raids and he rode in the early 70s to mid 80s.

it's just that sort of incisive and informed comment on stw that has me regularly touching cloth with laughter

Fair one, 😳 (Tony Simpson being one of my colleagues and a keen cyclist as it happens, so you can suck that turtle head right back in Swiss)

I watched some of it, but I'm attempting to ride Ventoux 3 times in one day on Sunday or Monday, so I figured it probably wasn't the best way to motivate myself.

speed is so 1960s, get some meow meow, or ketamine. you'll be fine man.

Talking of books, Put Me Back on My Bike by William Fotheringham, is worth reading too.

Great book! 2/3rds of way through it. More insightful than the tv programme but very much along the same lines.

What on earth was his team mate doing with a half bottle of brandy in his pocket? Did they still do bar raids for drinks in '67?

Yes they did! The team cars were not allowed to give out water so they had to beg steal and borrow along the way from spectators, fountains, bars and cafe's. The brandy came from a bar before ventoux, loads of riders went in to steal stuff helped by the patrons but chased by the owner. 😯

mefty the guy who asked him to quit on the day [befor ereace staretd iirc] if him then yes. He should have forced the issue certainly during the accent he is clearly shot and therown in the towel much like boxers trainers do. Yes he would have been annoyed but alive. I agree it would have taken a strong man and you make a fair point.

The team cars were not allowed to give out water

not sure if thats true in the 1960s. they were still getting stuff from bars, but team cars were allowed to give out water i think.

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not sure if thats true in the 1960s. they were still getting stuff from bars, but team cars were allowed to give out water i think.

Going off what the book said?

Still like the idea of loads of athletes off on stealing spree's right acrosss France all in the name of sport.

lookmannohands 2.15 am, so if you stay up tonight you'll see it, think that's the last showing as It's not listed again on sky planner.