MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
It’s such a complex problem, in some circumstances ‘types’ of people are disproportionately involved in criminal activity. why can’t the police use that bias for police work? The crims had green hair so green hairies were disproportionately stopped type of thing.
Except we've already established that black people are stopped disproportionately, both to population and crime rates.
Inkster, I think we were discussing rural police night work. A couple of people used anecdotes to say nonsense, I've used mine to say-very much my experience.
The Butler case on it's own isn't of much interest to me to be honest because of the issues with the detail. I'm more interested in the conversation that this had drifted into. I have absolutely been stopped in the middle of the day fyi, for all sorts of bizarre reasons, definitely due to stereotyping and bias, they weren't funny at the time and I'm sure the po-po didn't find it funny either but looking back I can see the funny side (well just tales from the past really, some might find them funny others not so, funny is an opinion I guess)
Are you happy for bias and stereotyping to be used in police work? That seems to be the crux of it to me. You seem to be saying people driving on Sunday afternoon and visiting mums should not be stopped which would be a form of bias that Crims would quickly work out.
Anecdotally, the local area has a big problem with county lines drug running and the faces on the frontline are disproportionately black and young so surely this is going to be reflected in police bias regarding stop and search.
Inequality in our society has led them to that front line but that's for courts and wider society to deal with. Police just have to catch Crims asap
I think collective punishment is the term you're looking for exsee.
The thread has drifted into discussion about policing in rural environments, that's because some officers bought some detail to the table regarding widespread police practices and the law, and how it is the law that underpins police actions. This gives us the chance to compare and contrast patterns of policing and how the law might be being enforced in different districts. To be fair to the officers that bought it up, I don't think they bought it up as an excuse, they bought it up to bring context.
Start a thread about countryside policing if you wish, call it 'Midsummer Murmours' or something. This is a thread about racism as it relates to police veichle stops. You don't deal with complexity by employing false equivalence. I'm sure the nurse who had her window smashed in and ended up in handcuffs can see the funny side and never hesitates to bring the story up at parties.
You do realise that you've just made a justification for police stops on Sunday afternoons based on the fact that most criminals operate at night don't you? Casting suspicion on people precisely because they arouse no suspicion? That's Kafkaesque.
Since I've not seen it anywhere before, I made a map. This shows, by area, the proportion amongst the resident population of respondents to the 2011 census who identified as Black/African/Caribbean/Black British (yes, I'm ignoring other ethnic groups but I had to start somewhere) alongside reported crimes from June 2020 (the latest available). Each dot is a reported crime, each polygon is roughly 1500 people. There are many caveats in interpreting this, including that not all crime is recorded the same across the country, June 2020 is likely atypical for lockdown reasons, roughly a third of crimes are removed from the official stats for privacy reasons and that dense cities will hide information. The colour scale is even distribution, not linear.
Hopefully noting that neither crime nor ethnicity is evenly distributed across the country is uncontroversial. Other than that I will refrain from further comment - you can draw your own conclusions, if any can be drawn. At some point I may put this data through some statistical tests to see if it does actually show anything significant.
It’s such a complex problem, in some circumstances ‘types’ of people are disproportionately involved in criminal activity. why can’t the police use that bias for police work?
Because it's going to piss off all the millions of other people with green hair who have done nothing wrong, are contributing to society, and are paying taxes that pay the cops discriminating against them.
You need more precise profiling than just colour if you hope to catch criminals. One of the most amusing drug catches locally was a big German car being driven over the hill from Spain really carefully. The gendarmes were curious but carried on till they came across a mundane car being driven equally slowly by a white retired gentleman (Brit as it happens). They set up a stop for both. The drugs were in the mundame car, the dealers were in the big German one keeping an eye on their goods. Some amusing cases when I was a translator in the local court - crims know all about racial/age/stereotype profiling.
Inkster, the thread drift seemed relevant and imo that encapsulates the complexity of the wider discussion. You didn't mention anything to the others for implying their anecdotes were more honest than the fair and reasonable accounts from real officers (is that your bias I wonder). I was just throwing my anecdotes in to back up the officers versions having lived in rural hum drum and had those experiences. You then asked me if I've been stopped on a Sunday while visiting me mam, so I gave you my answer.
Now your saying I can't claim equivalence. I wasn't!
If we get to a place with real random stop and search efforts then the norms are absolutely going to get caught up in being stopped on a Sunday afternoon visiting their mums. The drug gangs operating locally are young and brazen beyond anything I have ever known. Current fad is to stab the victim in the backside to leave them needing colostomy bags. Should police bias be used in those situations? Regardless of who the perpetrators are or are you just looking for stats that show unequivocal fairness.
10 teenagers stab someone but we need equal stop and search on all types to prove we're not being ageist.
Millions of teenagers too. You need something more than just being a teenager. The obvious answer to a lot of teenage crime is to legalise cannabis and sell it in state shops.
you can draw your own conclusions, if any can be drawn
That more crime occurs in urban areas, and the countryside is almost exclusively white…?
Edukator.
We need to reset the relationship with the Police and the public, particularly the youth. Decriminalising cannabis would be the single most effective course of action the Government could take. Imagine the amount of time and resources the Police, the courts and the prisons could save if we stopped criminalising people for having a bit of puff.
Absolutely edukator, it's not a one cap fits all but if the profiling starts to add up then the beady eye of the law will take a look.
Ethnicity seems relevant in certain situations just like age or the way you dress, speak, look, location, vehicle, actions, response etc etc, then take into account every officers interpretation of those points and what they then think looks iffy or worth a word.
Being an all-round good policeman has to be one of the hardest jobs there is so if we are arguing for much better training then yeah, definitely. Many of my stops were absolutely escalated by aggressive policing.
If we're trying to use complicated stats and situations to call the police force racist then nah. It's way more complicated than that imo.
Ethnicity seems relevant in certain situations just like age or the way you dress, speak, look, location, vehicle, actions, response etc etc,
Socioeconomic status would be a more correct correlation to make with crime. Ethnicity or race in reference to skin colour, eye or nose shape, is a social construct and plays no part in someones conduct. Since we've been able to map the human genome it's disproved the subjective and empirical observations of eugenics, which was devised to support slavery.
This is a perfect example of the systemic racial bias which has contributed to the oppression of black people. It's not only the police that have to change, our education, health care, judiciary and society also have to change their perceptions and practices.
The article below is a review of the Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services (HMICFRS) 2017 annual PEEL report. In short, black people are disproportionately stopped despite white people committing more crime.
exsee
MemberIt’s such a complex problem, in some circumstances ‘types’ of people are disproportionately involved in criminal activity. why can’t the police use that bias for police work?
Because that's not how statistics work. The odds of a particular criminal being black are in many cases disproportionately high. But the odds of any black person being a criminal are functionally the same as the odds of any white person being a criminal, ie, bugger all. They might be several times more likely but that's still bugger all.
Intuitively, "several times more likely" makes things seem worth doing but the maths of it means that "still not likely" means that it's not. If you sell a bike, it's probably going to be to a white dude but that doesn't mean stopping random white dudes and asking if they want to buy your bike is likely to work.
And the thing is, that's not just about racism- it's just bad policing. Ineffectual, time and money wasting, community-support-losing policing. Even people who don't care if it's racist should still worry about that.
A really good example of this is the poor targeting of stops and searches. Because yes, black youths are way more likely to be targeted. But what's more interesting statistically is that though white youths are less likely to be targeted, each individual search of a white youth is way more likely to lead to an arrest.
And that's simply because a search of a white youth is more likely to be well targeted, intelligence led, or otherwise with good cause. If you apply the exact same high standard to all ethnicities, what happens? Less stops, higher ratio of arrest, much less police time spent shaking down people who haven't done anything wrong (or arresting people for unrelated offences, like breach of the peace when they kick off) That doesn't mean "search an equal number of black people", it just means applying the same standard of suspicion. It'll actually still lead to more searches of black people, but that's not a problem in itself, if done for the right reason.
If we get to a place with real random stop and search efforts then the norms are absolutely going to get caught up in being stopped on a Sunday afternoon visiting their mums.
The blindness here is incredible.
"The norms" ARE ALREADY BEING CAUGHT UP WHILE ON A SUNDAY AFTERNOON VISIT TO THEIR MUM! But they're black so it apparently doesn't count.
"We can't do random, non-race-based, traffic stops because that would affect innocent white people rather than innocent black people" is just...wow.
the countryside is almost exclusively white
One thing you absolutely cannot tell from this visualisation is anything about white people as a group because white, mixed, Asian, Arab and "other" are all together.
Faerie, that is quite a bizarre summary of the peel report. I hope you read it and didn't just read the guardian bit👍.
The report states that a lot more information is required to understand why disproportionate stop/search is happening. If we then slip back to your other point and consider poverty in certain areas then I think we would see a very different set of numbers compared to UK wide ethnicity figures.
As you know you will see a completely disproportionate mix of people in poor parts of big towns/cities compared to UK wide figures.
More data needed on a much smaller scale.
Exsee, I wouldn't have gotten involved in this discussion if it wasn't something that I understand and had researched, as well as experiencing and witnessing various forms of racism first hand ✊🏻✊🏽✊🏿👍. "Stop and search is one of the most intrusive powers available to the police, and its
disproportionate use on members of black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME)
communities continues to threaten trust and confidence in the police. HMICFRS
therefore continues to assess the extent to which all forces are using these powers
fairly, and are demonstrating to the public that they are doing so" PEEL report, here's a link to the source which is the police themselves and hopefully will save ajaj trying to link skin colour to crime to fit prejudices.
I'm sure I must be misunderstanding the links you are making between "race" (which doesn't physically exist) and crime. Are you suggesting that skin pigmentation is an indicator to an innate criminality that is not shared by white people? That we are somehow superior in our morality because we are white?
That, in my mind is bizarre, your words are reminiscent of David Hume's footnote in Of National Characters “I am apt to suspect the Negroes to be naturally inferior to the Whites. There never was a civilized nation of any other complexion than white, nor even any individual eminent either in action or speculation. No ingenious manufacturer amongst them, no arts, no sciences. On the other hand, the most rude and barbarous of the Whites, such as the ancient German, the present Tartars, still have something eminent about them, in their valor, form of government, or some other particular. Such a uniform and constant difference could not happen in so many countries and ages, if nature had not made an original distinction betwixt these breeds of men. Not to mention our colonies, there are Negro slaves dispersed all over Europe, of whom none ever discovered any symptoms of ingenuity; though low people, without education, will [229] start up amongst us, and distinguish themselves in every profession. In Jamaica, indeed, they talk of one Negro as a man of parts and learning; but it is likely he is admired for slender accomplishments, like a parrot who speaks a few words plainly.”
As I have said previously that we now have a greater understanding of the genome, a white person and a black person have more genes in common than 2 black people do.
"More recently, biologist, Richard Lewontin reaffirmed Washburn’s contention in stating: "if you pick at random any two ‘blacks’ walking along the street, and analyze their 23 pairs of chromosomes, you will probably find that their genes have less in common than do the genes of one of them with a random white person" (Begley, 1995). Data from the Human Genome Diversity Project confirms these assertions by showing that inter-individual genetic variation between people in the same sociological racial grouping is much greater than between the averages contrasted across different classifications (Begley, 1995)." Smith Science Institute
You are dismissing poverty as a major contributer to crime and other poor life outcomes, because otherwise more white people would be charged?? Institutional and systemic racism oppresses people who experience racism in every aspect of life, from accommodation, education, jobs, health care, security and a fair judicial system, they are therefore more likely than white people to live in extreme poverty and have lower life outcomes. Here is a link to a poverty and crime report centered on London
https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/full-links-between-poverty-and-violent-crime
Exsee,
You can search for all the data you like to try and find that one nugget of information that proves that racism doesn't exist but you're never going to find it because all available data points to the existence of racism.
The piece of evidence that Northwind provided, that stops carried out on white people are, and always have been exponentially more likely to result in arrest than stops carried out on black people, is the piece of data that trumps all data. It's called a fact. What you are looking for are alternative facts.
I do admire your persistence in the pursuit of ignorance though, you must have put in quite some effort to construct that map of meaninglessness.
disproportionate use on members of black, Asian and minority ethnic
Disproportionate *within* those groups, of course.
If we're going to assume these disparities are down to racism then the top three places in the police's Race Merit ranking are:
1) Chinese People
2=) Indian People
2=) Mixed Asian/White
2=) White
3) Mixed Black African/White
Quite a freaky form of racism, where your third favorite race is 50pc identical to your least favorite, and your second favorite "race" (Indian origin) is visually identical to a "race" (****stan origin) that's a little way further down the order.
“race” (which doesn’t physically exist)
Which is a pretty good point. I have no idea what race means or how it's measured. I'm a mixture of all kinds of DNA from all over the world. 2pc Neanderthal heritage, 1/500th Chinese heritage- the list is endless. Some of my DNA is dead virus from deep time!)
We are all that kind of mix.
When Dawn Butler says the driver was 'Black' what exactly does she mean? If he took a DNA test and turned out to be a mix of Black African/White heritage (highly likely) then he's in the third least stop and searched "race" in the UK. (I'm not saying this was a stop and search - I know it wasn't.)
Race is a social construct, something that we made up to support slavery and ensure white supremacy. We classify certain observed physical attributes, mainly skin colour to a particula "race", for example Australian Aboriginals are classed as negroid, whilst Indians are classed mongoloid the same as Chinese people.
When Dawn Butler refers to the driver as "Black" she means not white as most of the British public would see it. My children are of mixed African/Scottish heritage and although they are brought up within the Scottish culture and have never been to Africa they are classed as black, though they are equally white.
Now, you haven't sited your source for your figures but I'm going to take a guess at this. You have been selective in your representation of the figures and have chosen to omit other classifications which have come from the census. The census is a self assessment to determine the demography of the nation and people self identify in a a variety of ways, whilst some prefer "Black Other" another may choose "Mixed white/black African" or "White other"
If you look at those who identify as "Black Other" you will see a significant difference to what you have chosen to highlight.
https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest
Now, you haven’t sited your source for your figures
I have, but here they are again:
You have been selective in your representation of the figures
How the hell can I pick the top three without being selective? Yes, I selectively selected the top three. Feel free to cite a different top three!
they are classed as black
Cite your source for that, please.
When Dawn Butler refers to the driver as “Black” she means not white as most of the British public would see it.
So he could easily be mixed race African/White, in which case, as I say he's in the third least stop and searched "race".
Australian Aboriginals are classed as negroid
No they're not.
There's no such thing as
police race merit ranking
but I'm glad to see that we are using the same source I linked to, which says
Summary
This data shows that:there were 375,588 stop and searches in England and Wales between April 2018 and March 2019, at a rate of 7 per 1,000 people
there were 4 stop and searches for every 1,000 White people, compared with 38 for every 1,000 Black people
there were 11 stop and searches per 1,000 Asian people, and also 11 per 1,000 people with Mixed ethnicity
the 3 Black ethnic groups had the highest rates of stop and search out of all 16 individual ethnic groups
the Black Other group had the highest rate overall, at 100 stop and searches per 1,000 people – this group includes people who didn’t identify (or weren't recorded) as Black African or Black Caribbean"
Which is vastly different to your cherry picked interpretation. Talking of cherry picking, you are asking how I know my kids are classed as black? Honestly? You're being heavy on the trolling.
If you look into the history of eugenics, or The Enlightenment as we prefer to call it, it was either Immanuel Kant, John Locke or Francis Galston that classed Australian Aboriginals as the same as Africans, or maybe it was David Hume. I cba going through all my notes to find the specific quote at the moment, but if you don't trust me having supported all of my other comments with the relevant sources I shall happily refresh my memory and provide you with a quote. Actually, it's going to bug the hell out of me if I don't find it.
Faerie, yes you have completely misunderstood👍 moving swiftly on...
Thanks for the link regarding poverty, that was exactly my point.
Do you have any data on ethnicity in these deprived areas and the stop/search taking place there and specific areas of those boroughs?
Then we can look at disproportionate stop search on a more relevant scale.
Faerie, Out of those 375000 stop searches, 300k were in London so why is the UK figure for ethnicity being used as any relevant measure? We need more localised data..
Your poverty link increases the possibility that stop searches will be focused in deprived areas where once again ethnicity will be a million miles from the UK figures.
The figures are not comprehensive so no one should be making accusations without more localised data. Exactly what the peel report stated!
And that’s simply because a search of a white youth is more likely to be well targeted, intelligence led, or otherwise with good cause.
Sandwich Jr would beg to differ, whiter than white middle-class teenage lad subject to a couple of random stops on a Friday by Ipswich's finest. One of these they tried to goad the boys into a fight.
Some coppers do themselves no favours and they need removing from the service.
You've overstepped the line and making this personal, do you want a picture of them?
Both yourself and exsee are demonstrating willful ignorance and manipulating official information to suit your agenda, I won't encourage it further.
I think outofbreath just cancelled himself. A new low for this forum.
Faerie, you can come and go as you please👍 I'm fairly sure we have crossed wires anyway, I guess we all have an agenda, i think you and others are deliberately misrepresenting complicated and limited stats to support your agenda, overall the peel report does not support your position so you quote snippets to misrepresent it. I want to dig deeper into those stats to have a better understanding of why the headline grabbing disproportionately is going on.
You and others are saying 'look disproportionately the police force are racist' but those stats and independent report do not support that view.
County lines drug gangs are a major problem, they target deprived areas to groom vulnerable youngsters into an ultra violent brazen drug dealing lifestyle with no fear of prison. deprived areas become bigger hotspots for serious crime (this isn't anything like selling a bit of weed, it's resource draining violent organised gang crime and happening in sleepy towns) What do we find in those deprived areas.. a demographic that is a million miles from the 80% white numbers of the UK, if the majority of stop searches are happening in the deprived areas then suddenly the headline disproportionately has dramatically shrunk or vanished.
If you just take a moment to consider how the London demographic figures (80% of stop search) would skew the balance, then take it a step further and consider how stop searches in Lambeth (with 3 in 5 identifying as other than white) surely you can see that the UK demographic figures are irrelevant in this context. (Police force racism not societal inequality)
Some coppers do themselves no favours and they need removing from the service.
Yep, including the racist ones but of course "we don't allow racism in the police" so there won't be any. Job done.
exsee's post TL;DR version:
Black people get pulled over more because they are bad.
Sandwich
SubscriberSandwich Jr would beg to differ, whiter than white middle-class teenage lad subject to a couple of random stops on a Friday by Ipswich’s finest. One of these they tried to goad the boys into a fight.
The difference between "more likely" and "always".