Forum menu
The unions have no more right to claim to have changed society for the better than many other groups.
LOL ! 😀
I'm afraid the drains on my road were blocked when Britain was in recession in the late eighties then blocked again in the boom times of the nineties. They were blocked in the noughties and show no signs of being unblocked in 2010. Floods downhill cause regular chaos.
Public sector cuts fill me with fear.
Satellites, aircraft bits, scientific instruments, lots of cars - and a load more stuff besides. Most of what we make is high tech.
We make cars... Cars for export? And these are british owned companies?
😮
Forget the economy lets bring back TVR 😛 Lets gamble on that instead of futures in the city.
F1 yeah weve got a lot of teams here (mostly foreign owned?)... but will F1 remain a popular sport? Is it popular? Is it declining? A lot motorshports have been hit hard by the recession - sponsorship gone.
In 2003, manufacturing industry accounted for 16% of national output in the UK and for 13% of employment. This is a continuation of the steady decline in the importance of this sector to the British economy since the 1960s, although the sector is still important for overseas trade, accounting for 83% of exports in 2003. Manufacturing is an important sector of the modern British economy and there is a considerable amount of published research on the subject of the factors affecting its growth and performance. After the 2010 Recession it is one of the fastest growing sectors of the economy - experiencing a mini-boom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_Kingdom#Manufacturing
Yes its wikipedia.. fred might have written it
And these are british owned companies?
No, but so what? Thousands of British people work there, and I'm sure the shareholders come from all over the world.
Unions seem to be run mainly by lunatics clinging to discredited ideologies. I've no problem with organised labour per se, but I do have a problem with them getting involved in politics, funding political parties and demanding to have their interests heard over everyone else's.
As things stand at the moment, Unions effectively exclude all but Communists and charlatans.
Tron get a grip that is just hysterical gibberish
It seems reasonable that if the unelected Queeen can have a weekly meeting with the pm that a group representing 6.5 million people is also allowed a voice/platform in this democracy. Do we really have 6.5 million communists /chrlatans voting for idiots or just 6.5 million people who dont agree with your view of unions?
i fear that my (largely) irrational hatred of unions is about to go into overdrive.
Hurrah, proof if proof were ever needed - even Fidel finally admits that [i]socialism isn't working[/i]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/09/fidel-castro-cuba-economic-model
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/14/cuba-privatisation-state-job-cuts
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11291267
as the BBC says - Cuba has announced radical plans to lay off huge numbers of state employees.
The Cuban labour federation said more than a million workers, or one in five Cubans, would eventually lose their jobs. Those laid off will be encouraged to become self-employed or join new private enterprises, on which some of the current restrictions will be eased.President Raul Castro has said he the state's role in the economy has to be reduced. About 85% of the official workforce is employed by the state. Analysts say it is the biggest private sector shift since the 1959 revolution.
See that, Cuba's reigning in of the state and reduction in spending is [i]more radical[/i] than Britains!
In other news: Retired civil service chief and former permanent secretary to the treasury under Labour, Lord Turnbull says that :
“public spending got too big relative to the productive resources of the economy, by error”
http://network.civilservicelive.com/pg/pages/view/497934/
a group representing 6.5 million people
I don't think they do represent people though. They have their own political aims, and people join them because they think they'll get a few days of now and again and they'll get more from their employers. Whether they deserve it or not.
I like the idea of unions but I don't like what they've turned into. Their members just want want want, and their bosses use this to try and shaft business apparently with some kind of malicious motive. And before you lay into me I am a socialist at heart.
Q.
What will happen to the unemployed people? how will they pay their bills?
Are there jobs for them to go to?
Or just **** 'em???
I don't know the figures but I do know if people lose their jobs what it is like to be unable to support their families etc.
If there was plenty of work in the U.K. then I would say sure! make the cuts and let them do other jobs in the private sector.
But nobody really gives a crap about anyone else unless they are affected themselves.
I hope the private sector is able to provide the jobs for them.
How many union leaders would describe themselves as Communists? How many have worked with far left parties? How many unions could be described as anything but to the left of the Labour party?
The fact is, that unions represent their members interests at the cost of everyone else, and their membership is left leaning, and they have left wing political objectives. As a result, they effectively filter out anyone who isn't left wing from their membership.
If I could be any animal I think I would be a Red Kite.
Unions seem to be run mainly by lunatics clinging to discredited ideologies. I've no problem with organised labour per se, but I do have a problem with them getting involved in politics
Yes Tron, look at all these nutty pinko policies that the trade unions have lobbied for (and achieved under Labour)
The introduction of statutory trade union recognition
- Health and safety legislation
- The right to fair representation at work
- The right to paid maternity, paternity and adoptive leave
- The Working Time Directive
- The National Minimum Wage
Bastards eh?
As things stand at the moment, Unions effectively exclude all but Communists and charlatans.
😆
Have you ever actually had a job tron?
The fact is, that unions represent their members interests at the cost of everyone else
Yeah, see the list above - all only of benefit to union members obviously. 🙄
You are posting increasingly hysterical nonsense.
Your are a very confused one then molgrips.
As sated the memebre elect their leaders, elect their reps and EVERY strike has to be approved by a ballot so the "leaders" cannot really do what the members dont want ? People keep claiming they dont represent the members but could you cite an example of them ignoring their members? It would be illegal in terms of strike action and the members would just leave and the Union would have no money.
Or alternately:
Distorted member's working conditions and contracts so heavily that many employers use temps for perm roles, to the benefit of recruitment agencies.
As for the Working Time Directive, it's worthless outside of a unionised environment.
Stopped Blair from sorting out public sector pension funding.
Now it seems they're trying to pick a fight with the government. All lovely stuff.
I don't see what relevance it would have, but yes, I've had several jobs.
I like the idea of unions but I don't like what they've turned into. Their members just want want want, and their bosses use this to try and shaft business apparently with some kind of malicious motive. And before you lay into me I am a socialist at heart.
Sounds like you spend too long listening to the right wing press view of unions rather than the reality.
As a result, they effectively filter out anyone who isn't left wing from their membership.
What the airline pilot union is full of people to the left of the Labour party, The National Farmers Union is a radically left wing organisation, The BMA [British Medical Association wants communism and they want it now.
You are posting increasingly hysterical nonsense + 1
I am enjoying it though so dont stop
As if I read the right wing press!
My only experience of unions comes from 4 years in a unionised workplace. Where everyone came out on strike against cuts, but most people I talked to only did it because they fancied a day off (seriously).
And you know, sometimes cuts are necessary. Things change, organisations move on, I'm afraid. (this was pre credit crunch btw)
tron - so you are ignoring all the positives - have a problem with the minimum wage?
Is this going to be like in the Ricky Hatton thread where you were proved wrong so just gave up?
What the airline pilot union is full of people to the left of the Labour party
Have a look at the major unions. All pretty left wing...
tron thats rubbish our union, of which im not a member- but i have been to meetings is just full of very dull usually older naturally right leaning people who are bitter about our pension fund going under
So have you ever had a job tron? 😆
have a problem with the minimum wage?
I'm agnostic.
The major trade unions are staffed by people with a political axe to grind. Take Bob Crow as an extreme example. He calls himself a Communist/Socialist 🙄
As for the Working Time Directive, it's worthless outside of a unionised environment
So what you are saying is that employers ignore the law of the land unless they are unionised, organised and make them obey the law. Seems dreadfull dont we all want law breaking employers evryone knows they are the best. Up the criminal I say
Have a look at the major unions. All pretty left wing...
So you accept that not all unions are to the left of the labour party then Tahnks.
tron - have you ever had a job?
Seems dreadfull dont we all want law breaking employers evryone knows they are the best.
What I am saying is that unions would be a lot more helpful if they were radically different to the way they are now. Remove the left wing rhetoric and counter-productive attitude problem and they might actually get back to decent membership figures, which would mean they could help a lot more people.
It's perfectly legal to sign out of the WTD as far as I'm aware.
Grum, have you ever been awarded a qualification in English? Because I've mentioned that several posts up...
What is a union for?
to quote King arthur:
...It also has a second function that is not generally understood or accepted by the public at large, and that is to bring an end to the capitalist society in which we live and create a socialist system of society.
Grum, have you ever been awarded a qualification in English? Because I've mentioned that several posts up...
You are failing to point out that was an edit. 🙄
Having a paper round doesn't count however. I just find it pretty funny that a 'scummy student' claims to know so much about the world of work.
Tron I am anjoying watching you change tack, adapt your argument , change position each time you post. Keep going this is fun.
It is indeed legal if voluntarty ...clearly you accept that unions prevent employers forcing employeee to volunteer or do you wish to change that as well now?
So they are not all left wing , you cannot cite an example of them ignoring their members, and accept they stop the excesses of unscrupolous employers. But still sya all they do is ignore their members and pursue a communist agenda.
I agree if they were more servile to their masters they would be more "helpful".
I never realised you were trying to help them increase their memebership with your suggestions ..how thoughtful of you 😉
I suppose you did a stint down the pit then worked your way up to the board of ICI then?
I've worked in both unionised and non-unionised environments. As I see it, the balance of power can be unhealthy in either.
Not an edit by the way.
This is an edit: 1984. Ballot?
Amusingly - google ads came up with an 'ObamaCare - STOP HIM!' ad on this thread - presumably they could detect a similar kind of rabid right wing hysteria in tron's posts. 😆
I agree if they were more servile to their masters they would be more "helpful".
Aye. The Germans are strike pretty rarely, and employers are queuing to shaft them.
Oh hang on a minute... They've gotten a hell of a lot further than our unions have.
Think Grum may have a point that those of us who have done years in Unionised and non unionised employers may have a little thing called experience and wisdom ...you should learn from us young padawan
As I see it, the balance of power can be unhealthy in either.
The balance of power is always with the employer, they can sack you at a moments notice, change your T & C with 60 day notices, move premises 200 miles away, give you a new job, wriet the personnell handbook etc whatever they want within the law. Unions can only slightly redress the balance via volume of numbers. Whatever you wish to say employeees have a far better deal now compared with the conditions in the Mill. unions exist because employers care more about money than the welfare/well being of their staff.
Where was this heavily unionised place you worked?
Again, I don't see why it's relevant. Where have you worked? Where do you work? Are you working now?
The balance of power is always with the employer, they can sack you at a moments notice, change your T & C with 60 day notices, move premises 200 miles away, give you a new job, wriet the personnell handbook etc whatever they want within the law
well, no, they can't really can they Junky!
[i]sack you at a moments notice[/i] - unfair dismissal unless they've followed the three stage process
[i]change your T & C with 60 day notices[/i] - constructive dismissal
[i]move premises 200 miles away[/i] - redundancy payment
[i]give you a new job [/i]- only with your agreement, otherwise see above
[i]wriet the personnell handbook [/i]- within reason, laid down within legal parameters, have to give you a contract of employment and stick to it.
He is trying to suggest that experience counts and generatees wisdom. He is suggesting you lack this experience/wisdom. Prima Facie he does seem to have a point. Your refusal to discuss your employment history [ despite mentioning it] suggests you realise it weakens rather than strengthens your position.
In France, Germany, and other European countries, socialist parties and democrats played a prominent role in forming and building up trade unions, especially from the 1870s onwards. This stood in contrast to the British experience, where [b]moderate [/b]New Model Unions dominated the union movement from the mid-nineteenth century and where trade unionism was stronger than the political labor movement until the formation and growth of the Labour Party in the early years of the twentieth century
My Bold
So it appears that the British moderate aproach that failed.
Zulu... but weren't all of those rights only given to the workers due to the effect of the unions?
Also, for the vast majority of people, companies can and do all of those things to their employees, and they seem to get away with it in a lot of cases just because the employees do not know their rights.
He is trying to suggest that experience counts and generatees wisdom.
Oh is he, oh great patronising one. Here's an idea for those of you who are full of experience and wisdom - being a student doesn't necessarily say anything about my age.
Funkynick - actually i reckon the simpsons had it pretty spot on:
You can't treat the working man this way. One day, we'll form a union and get the fair and equitable treatment we deserve.... Then we'll go too far, and get corrupt and shiftless, and the Japanese will eat us alive!
Sounds about right to me!
Oh is he, oh great patronising one. Here's an idea for those of you who are full of experience and wisdom - being a student doesn't necessarily say anything about my age.
I just put 2 and 2 together from the fact that:
You are being coy about what work you have actually done
You seem to be very naive about the world of work and the altruism of employers
Your cartoon right wing views bear very little relation to reality - suggesting you don't have much experience of it
😉
but weren't all of those rights only given to the workers due to the effect of the unions?
Here's an idea. There is the present, and there is the past. Whether something is a relevant and correct action depends on the circumstances in the present, not the past.
So saying "X happened 100 odd years ago because of Y", or "But they did all this for us" when they're currently doing something quite different, is irrelevant and illogical.
You are being coy about what work you have actually done
Please forgive me for not wanting to publish my life history for all the world to see for the rest of time, on a website populated by people who don't seem to understand the meaning of "too far".