[Closed] Creationist religious nutjob on R4 "One to One 9.30am"

I reckon if you stopped me eating bacon and drinking beer I might end up a bit fundamental.

Just wondering if any other religions, i.e. not originating in the deep south of America, have any opinions on creationism ?

Budhism, Islam etc have been around for a bit (obviously not more than 6,000 years...impossible), so have their current theologists any thing to say on creationism ?

Oh, and i do realise that this may not be the obvious case as frankly in some parts of the world you still can effectively "STONE THE HERETIC".

Google here i come. The truth is out there. Possibly.

I reckon if you stopped me eating bacon and drinking beer I might end up a bit fundamental.

But that doesn't explain the shoutyness, does it? Beer free fundamentalists of all hues tend to be louder with tones more brusque than people who drink.

Though I suppose there are considerably fewer fights outside kebab houses

So if Christianity says 'the Bible is the literal word of God' then you have to accept all of it, including the creation story, Noah's flood, the fire and brimstone, the whole of Revelations etc etc. You can't pick the bits that fit your 21st century rational world view but uphold

However

if your church/temple/fellowship of your chosen religion says "you can't eat prawns it's against gods will" but you tuck into prawn byriani every friday night then you aren't really religious (of your chosen denomination) are you?

*Mikes got a quote about the bible being 100% the word of god, apart from the stuff that's allegorical

I find waking up after drinking too much not only provides this emotion, but also the punishment too...

No but it is evidence of the value of [s]religion[/s] the placebo effect.

FTFY

If a placebo works, it has value. No point in being a snob about it.

Organised religion is just a political movement about control I think we all know that.

Disagree. Maybe it has been at times, but it's also to do with helping people feel better.

they have not really given evidence they have given, at best,personal testimony and you dont accept it either as proof

We could argue all day about the definition of evidence and its quality.

I've been given evidence lots of times of God. I have just never come across evidence that meets my standards.

"What makes you so sure I actually believe any of this rubbish? Do you really think I believe some higher-power, that nobody can prove even exists, is going to somehow influence my life?? Seriously??"

Thank you, great point well made .... In all of life's great experiences and questions do you still think in the same way as your eleven year old self?

... but you're happy to pay to indoctrinate them with your "belief system" that they shouldn't have a religious belief?

As a nihilist, you offend me.

It's not a belief if you don't have faith in anything, or for that matter do not care.

if such a being exists then trying to fathom their reasoning is more than likley beyond our limited intellectual abilities.

Not wholly dissimilar to the creation of the universe, then.

that would make Tesco value Horseburgers an ecumenical matter

Actual LOL there Binners, loving your work.

What creationism and Sky wizardary ?? .... yep call me Bannatyne, I'm out on those

Sorry, you may have missed my question before, but I'm still not clear on whether you're rejecting 'sky wizardry' the term, or the meaning. Ie, are you rejecting the notion that there's some deity still in control of everything, or just objecting to the use of a pejorative term?

Back to OP - I heard this guy on the Radio this morning and turned it off - he had [b]had[/b] a conversation/vision with God. The only imaginary covnersation you can have that doesn't get you committed. Am generally dissapointed with BBC and R4 in particular when it goes religious.

If a placebo works, it has value. No point in being a snob about it.

But is it necessary to be dishonest about it?

[re: control] Maybe it has been at times, but it's also to do with helping people feel better.

I think that's entirely dependent on the religion.

Just wondering if any other religions, i.e. not originating in the deep south of America, have any opinions on creationism ?

What religions originated in the deep south of America? Native American beliefs? Mormonism was a bit further north. Not sure where Hubbard was from.

Budhism, Islam etc have been around for a bit (obviously not more than 6,000 years...impossible), so have their current theologists any thing to say on creationism ?

I believe that the Islamic creation myth is very similar to the Judeo-Christian one.

If a placebo works, it has value. No point in being a snob about it.

Snob??? Odd choice of word tbh.

The thing about a placebo is by definition it does nothing so cannot "work".
Molly you are a scientist I dont know why you do this.

Not wholly dissimilar to the creation of the universe, then.

Very true, mind you I come from the school-of-thought that believes knowledge is infinite, so what do I know?

So let's just put this in the right thread...

so why does Islam ban pork, and the hindus have an issue with cows?

Most of the animal practices in religion are founded in a prctical aspect- it's quite a good way to think about how religions are developed. Kosher and halal are both fundamentally the same thing- a healthy eating system. Ban unclean animals, place restrictions on how you slaughter them. Put it in a religious context to help it get respected. Over time it gets more ritualised because that's what religion tends to do.

Likewise hindus and cows. Farming cows for meat is a pretty inefficient process, so cows were more valued for dung and milk. (going back far enough, the prohibition only applied to milk-cows).

The other thing about this sort of thing is that people following these practices for their own reasons end up associating with the religion. Irreligious people tend to follow most of the ten commandments, frinstance, at which point religious people sometimes say "But look! You're living in a christian way, you just don't know it! God is everywhere!". So it's a good marketing tool.

but religions change from time to time, normally to edit out the slightly OTT stuff that was in v1.0, which is fair enough I guess. It's made up stuff so they are allowed to omit certain made up details on a whim if they so wish*.

But who determines where the "made up stuff" begins/ends and the "truth" (i.e. shot that can be proved)takes over.

If you can review the "plotline" due to a lack of evidence - Let's say Noah and the Big Flood cert PG, at what point do you start weeding all the other stuff out - like "There is a Big Bearded dude who lives in the sky".

I believe that the Islamic creation myth is very similar to the Judeo-Christian one.

Yup. Six days and Adam and Eve and forbidden fruit and everything.

The thing about a placebo is by definition it does nothing so cannot "work".

It does nothing chemically. The placebo effect however is extremely powerful. So powerful in fact that it even works when you know you are taking a placebo.

What was that about Prawns?

(Leviticus 11:10
English Standard Version (ESV))

" But anything in the seas or the rivers that does not have fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is detestable to you. "

Anyway, I'm just messing - feel free to stay and have a serious discussion.

Snob??? Odd choice of word tbh.

The thing about a placebo is by definition it does nothing so cannot "work".
Molly you are a scientist I dont know why you do this.

Placebo's have psychological value. Whether it's ethical to use them is another matter.

Most of the animal practices in religion are founded in a prctical aspect- it's quite a good way to think about how religions are developed. Kosher and halal are both fundamentally the same thing- a healthy eating system. Ban unclean animals, place restrictions on how you slaughter them. Put it in a religious context to help it get respected. Over time it gets more ritualised because that's what religion tends to do.

In one of Pratchett's books, Granny Weatherwax tells a family that they need to move their well away from the privvy because of the goblin who lives in the privvy. The young witch is shocked that Granny Weatherwax lied to the family: the previous witch had been telling that family the truth about the tiny invisible creatures in the privvy that were getting into their drinking water, but they wouldn't believe something daft like that so didn't move their well.

But who determines where the "made up stuff" begins/ends and the "truth"

What was that about Prawns?

*and yes I know the reasons - or atleast I was taught one of the reasons at my CoE school, STW or QI may prove that to be cobblers at some point aswell (didn't know the turn the other cheek bit)

Evolution is compatible with intelligent design

No, I'm afraid it's not.

Cougar... when you say "everything" yep God doesn't play marbles with planets for me and whether he did in the past is not of my concern.

I live here and now and I'm signed up to the "everything" humanly possible God/Thor/Budda/Santa has a hand in it.... my life is better for the faith I have and the life of those close to me is better for it (my faith) and hopefully those I met... you my disagree ? 😀

miketually - Member

In one of Pratchett's books, Granny Weatherwax tells a family that they need to move their well away from the privvy because of the goblin who lives in the privvy. The young witch is shocked that Granny Weatherwax lied to the family: the previous witch had been telling that family the truth about the tiny invisible creatures in the privvy that were getting into their drinking water, but they wouldn't believe something daft like that so didn't move their well.

Yup. (same joke is in Pyramids. Death with complications)

Can't remember who said this one, maybe Kim Stanley Robinson... It must have been great being the first jews in a new continent, going around deciding what's kosher and what isn't. Giraffe? Probably kosher. Chimpanzee? Aargh, it's throwing its poo at us, not kosher. Kangaroo? No idea.

I heard this guy on the Radio this morning and turned it off - he had [b]had[/b] a conversation/vision with God. The only imaginary conversation you can have that doesn't get you committed.

I'm envisaging the conversation now...

God: So, did you see the Spurs game at the weekend:
Radio Guy: Yeah! Injury time shocker [i]against[/i] Man U eh?
God: Who would have guessed it. [s****s]
Radio Guy: Wait a min, you sayin' what I think you're sayin'?
God: Listen, karma ain't just a Buddhist thing where I come from.

RM.

I live here and now and I'm signed up to the "everything" humanly possible God/Thor/Budda/Santa has a hand in it.... my life is better for the faith I have and the life of those close to me is better for it (my faith) and hopefully those I met...

... and still, this is not evidence for a god.

What is it called when you can separate your otherwise rational mind from the weird stuff you might believe, I can't remember. Anyway the religious do that lots.

Yeah this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compartmentalization_(psychology)

Cougar... when you say "everything" yep God doesn't play marbles with planets for me and whether he did in the past is not of my concern.

I live here and now and I'm signed up to the "everything" humanly possible God/Thor/Budda/Santa has a hand in it.... my life is better for the faith I have and the life of those close to me is better for it (my faith) and hopefully those I met... you my disagree ?

One priest I know prays for a parking space when he goes shopping at the supermarket. Another, in the same denomination, doesn't because he doesn't see why God would grant him a parking space as the result of a prayer when he (seems to) not interfere with the results of other prayers.

There are countless examples of people claiming God intervened in something as a result of their faith/prayers. If one child survives a tsunami because "God saved her", did God choose to not save the others?

Are there any religions out there that don't have the concept of an afterlife? To me they're all about giving people a false sense of hope that they might exist for more than the brief time they have on Earth.

Evolution is compatible with intelligent design, since the designer could have just set up the initial conditions and let it happen. No-one knows why there was a big bang after all.

But who determines where the "made up stuff" begins/ends and the "truth"

generally the head honcho of the religion.... or possibly committee. Hmm yep actually I'm changing my answer to "a committee"

It depends upon the religion. The truth of whether of not women could become bishops in the Church of England was decided by a vote. Slightly more than half of one section of the voters thought that the Bible said no, so women can't become Bishops.

So, even within the same denomination, there are disagreements. That's why it's so very hard to debate rationally with believers.

Plus the fact that a lot of believers don't [i]actually[/i] know what the bible says.

Woppit ... no not for you, we get it. Thanks for the input

Mike .. "people claiming God intervened" there is, I haven't. Again I can speak for every one... what does your Mrs think ?

Religion is a hangover from the era before science could explain most things.
To be fair science still has trouble with the origin of the universe so I take the attitude that I don't know, nobody has come up with a decent explanation yet but I'll keep an open mind.

Some aspects of religion regarding leading a decent life can be helpful but you don't NEED religion for that, just don't be a prick.

Some people get comfort from their faith in times of stress and that's fine too, each to their own.

The problem I have is teaching this in school, it has to be optional as it can be very emotive and equal teaching time must be given to other theories...which should also be optional.
Origins of the earth should perhaps be left out of the curriculum, when children are old enough and curious about it they'll read up on it themselves.

I hate having religion pushed down my neck though, preachy evangelists of any subject deserve a punch in the face.

Ro5ey - Member

Woppit ... no not for you, we get it.

I'd be grateful if you'd explain how

live here and now and I'm signed up to the "everything" humanly possible God/Thor/Budda/Santa has a hand in it.... my life is better for the faith I have and the life of those close to me is better for it (my faith) and hopefully those I met...

... is [i]evidence[/i] of anything other than "I've decided to abandon rational objectivity in favour of unproven fairy-stories"...

I hate having religion pushed down my neck though, preachy evangelists of any subject deserve a [s] punch [/s] tickle in the face.

FIFY

Woppit... "we get it", that you don't believe in God.

Whic ??

Mike .. "people claiming God intervened" there is, I haven't. Again I can speak for every one... what does your Mrs think ?

She's a very wooly liberal Anglican, who doesn't like religion. So, something about being lovely and helping people.

Ro5ey - Member

Woppit... "we get it", that you don't believe in God.

Oh, I see. IBYP.

So tell me. What does god look like? What colour is it?

"I hate having religion pushed down my neck though, preachy evangelists of any subject deserve a punch in the face."

Nice... peace be with you brother 😆

I hate having religion pushed down my neck though, preachy evangelists of any subject deserve a punch in the face.

I hate anyone trying to force their opinion on me, be it through evangelism or violence.

I dislike hate.

Oh Woppit that easy....

All the colours of the rainbow my friend. All the colours and a shinning light all rolled into one 😆 😆

Your Happy Clappy friend

Mr Woppit - Member

Ro5ey - Member

Woppit... "we get it", that you don't believe in God.

Oh, I see. IBYP.

So tell me. What does god look like? What colour is it?

miketually - Member

I dislike hate.

I hate dislike, so wishy washy.

Mike ... I like the sound of her 🙂