[Closed] Creationist religious nutjob on R4 "One to One 9.30am"

I'd sooner have a faith than not - living without hope for me would be very grim

Basically more or less everyone [b]agrees[/b].....

Just wandering whether that quote is strictly true? Anyone fancy summarising 5 pages (of conflict)?

i, like many atheists, would change my mind if i was presented with evidence.

what would it take to change your mind?

I'm not asking or suggesting that you change your mind. Refer to the article Miketually linked to and purely have some respect for those that choose to have their beliefs.

And ultimately, as wwaswas suggests:

see the thing is if this life is all that there is then he won't be disappointed 'cos he/his soul won't exist to be.

all us non-believers *may* be in for a nasty surprise, though.

[i]I'd sooner have a faith than not - living without hope for me would be very grim [/i]

why would not having a faith leave you without hope?

I have lots of hope for my life and those of my family - I don't need a religion to provide a reason for looking to the future.

Junkyard - Member

Binners you prove my earlier point - the catholics are excellent at keeping the lapsed within the flock

Indeed.

[i]I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.[/i]

At the end of the day, your kids will get a better education at the local Catholic school than they will at the alternative C of E affair . And as long as that's the case, then they'll always fill the pews.

So....perhaps the Archbishop of Canterbury should stop banging on about female bishops and gayers, and start addressing the real issue here. Their frankly lax and lackadaisical educational standards 😆

"Something omnipresent shouldn't be difficult to find."

It isn't... billions of us have

Hi folks. Let's get started shall we?

Firstly, creationism and intelligent design are not the same thing. Evolution is compatible with intelligent design, since the designer could have just set up the initial conditions and let it happen. No-one knows why there was a big bang after all.

I’ve never felt more happy, empowered, relaxed and free since I’ve been going to church.
Bully for you. Not evidence of god, however

No but it is evidence of the value of religion.

or think we need to be taught it to make us better

We do need to be taught about religion to make us better, because many other people believe these things and understanding other people is extremely important in avoiding conflict.

It was just created as an excuse for a fat bloke to shag about a bit.

Not quite - the reformation had started some time before the fat bloke and had been having a big impact all over Europe. The fat bloke just jumped on the bandwagon.

Which, contrary to popular conception, is always rammed to the rafters on a Sunday

Yeah but what about the rest of the week?

wwaswas - interested to know what you place your hope in?

I have respect for other people's beliefs, as long as they're not rammed down people's throats.

The default position should be that that children are brought up in a secular manner, and are free to choose religion or not when they are old enough to understand it.

That's not currently the case in most situations.

As an aside though, what does puzzle me is people like ro5ey up there. I'm pretty sure picking and choosing the bits if god's teaching isn't really observing religion. It's a bit like Lance saying he wasn't doing anything wrong and was following the rules of the sport because he was only on drugs some of the time

Would mentioning the Tim Minchin 'The Pope' tribute song be inappropriate?

It's fairly (a lot) NSFW but worth a google for the lyrics beyond the profanities.

I won;t link for risk of the banhammer.

[edit] @tyger - humans. I realise I'm more likely to be disappointed but they're far more likely to surprise and delight me.

It isn't... billions of us have

Yet non can provide any material evidence.

The plot thickens...

The default position should be that that children are brought up in a secular manner, and are free to choose religion or not when they are old enough to understand it.

That's only your default position unfortunately. If you believe that something as important as God exists and you DIDN'T teach it to your children then you really would be unbalanced.

However they should of course be free to decide themselves if they believe it or not

You invariably do.

Good to know.

The default position should be that that children are brought up in a secular manner, and are free to choose religion or not when they are old enough to understand it.

But what about politics? Or personal values? Or even goals and dreams?

You can't mandate what parents tell their kids, or how they tell it.

It isn't... billions of us have
Yet non can provide any material evidence.

They have provided evidence, you just don't accept it.

That's only your default position unfortunately. If you believe that something as important as God exists and you DIDN'T teach it to your children then you really would be unbalanced.

Most people's default position on things that are generally unbelievable to the rational person is that the dint exist, until provided evidence to the contrary. c/f the world not being flat

born from an irrational FEAR of the unknown

Two things.

1) I don't have a fear of the unknown. I'm quite comfortable with the concept that there's plenty of things we neither know nor understand. Religion provides convenient answers for people who cannot accept that.

2) Nothing screams "zealot" quite so loudly as putting RANDOM words in CAPITALS every five minutes for no apparent reason. It does your argument no favours.

I would hope that I keep the the not-being-a-dick side of the line, but if I occasionally cross it it's unintentional.

Well said, Mike. Likewise.

You start with such promise:

I have respect for other people's beliefs, as long as they're not rammed down people's throats.

...To then completely nullify your statement with the following:

As an aside though, what does puzzle me is people like ro5ey up there. I'm pretty sure picking and choosing the bits if god's teaching isn't really observing religion.

And:

Yet non can provide any material evidence.

Which is it to be?

There's a big building at the end of your street, you'll find the people in there will happily assist you in the general direction. But it's really up to you?

In my case that's a Buddhist Temple, I'll nip round later.

They have provided evidence, you just don't accept it.

Where?

The default position should be that that children are brought up in a secular manner, and are free to choose religion or not when they are old enough to understand it.

Utter codswallop! Are you going to leave the really important stuff to chance? Of course not! If your truly important stuff wasn't molded from the very beginning by your parents then either of my daughters could very easily have ended up supporting City!! Can you imagine?!!! I'm sorry but thats a risk I'm simply not prepared to take!!!

From "http://www.conservapedia.com/Dinosaur"

"Creation science asserts that the biblical account, that dinosaurs were created on day 6 of creation[3] approximately 6,000 years ago, along with other land animals, and therefore co-existed with humans, thus debunking the Theory of Evolution and the beliefs of evolutionary scientists about the age and creation of the earth."

I got that far and gave up.

No-one needs abusing for their beliefs, but I really don't get my head past this stuff! I find it hard to understand how people can weigh-up the weight of interlinking information in scientific studies about Earth's history against a few words written by a few people [and a very ambiguous pictograph or two] and say that the current understanding of how the Earth's history unfolded is utterly untrue.

But that might be why I stopped going to church a few years after I started...

"And then, one Thursday, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change, a girl sitting on her own in a small café in Rickmansworth suddenly realized what it was that had been going wrong all this time, and she finally knew how the world could be made a good and happy place. This time it was right, it would work, and no one would have to get nailed to anything."

Douglas Adams

Utter codswallop! Are you going to leave the really important stuff to chance? Of course not! If your truly important stuff wasn't molded from the very beginning by your parents then either of my daughters could very easily have ended up supporting City!! Can you imagine?!!! I'm sorry but thats a risk I'm simply not prepared to take!!!

One would hope that most of the "really important things in life" which you value aren't based mainly on a poorly translated book of questionable authorship

Nothing screams "zealot" quite so loudly as putting RANDOM words in CAPITALS every five minutes for no apparent reason. It does your argument no favours.

Indeed Cougar, my apologies. I initially used [i]itallics[/i] to emphasise my words of choice and then opted for uppercase. God knows why.

The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy?

Slackalice, you appear to have confused 'sensible questioning' for 'lack of respect'

"Something omnipresent shouldn't be difficult to find."

It isn't... billions of us have

Billions have "found" a cornucopia of gods throughout history and geography, from Jehova to Allah to Odin to Quezacotl to Nanabozho the Great Rabbit. And billions more haven't found anything at all. I'm not really seeing how that fits with omnipresence; we'd all be agreeing otherwise.

42?

[b]HE'S BEHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIND YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!![/b]

Zokes... God is personnal, go check it out.

Not sure the Lance story holds out... An Arch Bish or an Imam or the Dalai Iama himelf will says they don't live there lives pefectly in the eyes of their God.... we're all on a road trying to get there.

One would hope that most of the "really important things in life" which you value aren't based mainly on a poorly translated book of questionable authorship

slackalice - Member

You start with such promise:

Oh no he isn't.

So this is the Christian pitch as I understand it.

An omnipotent being created the universe
He created Man is his own image
Some sinning happened which wasn't down to the omipotent/omnipresent god but was in fact down to free will (which for some reason god doesn't get into)
Got smites everyone
later god gets tired of smiting so creates a human form of himself (but not actually himself rather a sort of avatar) which he sends to earth to spread the good word, this avatar has to die (painfully) to forgive all past and future sins that man may do so god sacrifices himself to himself to forgive the sins which he wont absolve (although he could (omnipotent see) without the death of himself.

Frankly it's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

An Arch Bish or an Imam or the Dalai Iama himelf will says they don't live there lives pefectly in the eyes of their God

An Arch Bish or an Imam or the Dalai Iama himelf will says they don't live there lives pefectly in the eyes of their God.... we're all on a road trying to get there.

Yet the final destination (in this life at least) is unattainable. Kind of hopeless?

[i]Oh no he isn't. [/i]

Hang on a minute!

If he's omnipresent and omniscient then not only is he behind you he also knows when to get out the way when you turn round so you'd never catch him out. That's crafty.

I'm not asking or suggesting that you change your mind. Refer to the article Miketually linked to and purely have some respect for those that choose to have their beliefs.

Burning, damnation, death in the main IIRC 🙄

"Something omnipresent shouldn't be difficult to find."

It isn't... billions of us have

I’ve never felt more happy, empowered, relaxed and free since I’ve been going to church.
Bully for you. Not evidence of god, however

No but it is evidence of the value of [s]religion[/s] the placebo effect.

They have provided evidence, you just don't accept it.

Look. Can you sciency nutters and religious nutters please just read this and get along?
[b]
[url= http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/main.html ]http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/main.html[/url][/b]

Creationism and science blended into the perfect reference book - happiness for all!

"HE'S BEHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIND YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!"

😆

Oh no he isn't !!

He's much closer

Cougar.... because some of us don't recognise him/her/they (doesn't matter) when see/feel him .... I didt't for 37 odd years.

Frankly it's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

I don't know about stupidest, but certainly requires an awful lot of doublethink to be able to tally up an omnipotent God with free will. The Jesus dying thing never really added up either... ...all seems so pointless.

Zokes... God is personnal, go check it out.
Not sure the Lance story holds out... An Arch Bish or an Imam or the Dalai Iama himelf will says they don't live there lives pefectly in the eyes of their God.... we're all on a road trying to get there.

The point being that plenty of people say they follow a religion, yet dont even try to follow its values. Or worse, pick and choose, like a lot of catholic priests appear to have.

and yet you canot even agree which god or gods it is - fact is most of you are wrong - you cannot all be right and yet you all have the same proof for your case

It's all the same God, they're just Schizophrenic, or multiple facets of the greater being if you want to get spiritual.

So questioning the nature of an individual's belief and how they choose to do so is respectful?

It can be when done so with a genuine desire to learn and become better informed of them, however a previous assertion suggested to me that the intent was more towards questioning the nature of their belief and I didn't interpret that as respectful.

If I am incorrect in that, I apologise.

some thoughts, maybe one of religions biggest failings is that in its current form it divorces people from what they are, animals.

I think too many people see themselves as not being part of the planet, that the earth exists for their benefit.

It does create a community, but is wicca any different from a church, or indeed a football fanclub, in that respect?

Maybe believers should ask why there are so many different religions? if there was only one god, why is it not universal? why do hindus believe and more importantly observe different customs?

"Yet the final destination (in this life at least) is unattainable. Kind of hopeless? "

Nah .... it's fun trying, see my earlier post.

Organised religion is just a political movement about control I think we all know that.

I'm all for finding the deeper truth about life the universe and everything but the only truthful answer is "We don't know". Therefore faith/religion at it's most basic level is flawed because it says "we know and the answer is this" which is a very big fib indeed.

If my son came and said he could do a backflip on his scooter I'd want to see it, if he said he knew how the universe was created I'd have a few queries about how he knew that.

It's all the same God, they're just Schizophrenic, or multiple facets of the greater being if you want to get spiritual.

so why does Islam ban pork, and the hindus have an issue with cows? why don't we all sacrifice Chickens like voodoo? or excarnate the dead like the zoroastrians.

Surely a god would expect followers to follow similar rules?

If I am incorrect in that, I apologise.

You're correct in its intent, just not in your interpretation

It's no less respectful than being questioned on my views by someone with religious belief. Is it now disrespectful to challenge views? If in your eyes this is so, then I respectfully suggest an Internet [u]debate[/u] is not the best place for you

Nah .... it's fun trying, see my earlier post.

But from your earlier posts you state quite clearly which bits youre opting out of. Clearly you're not trying particularly hard

So this is the Christian pitch as I understand it.

An omnipotent being created the universe

This is the part I have the biggest problem with, I think. It's a massive circular argument.

We have the Big Bang Theory which explains how the universe is created. We don't really know what came before then; maybe it was always there. "Ah," goes religion, "something can't just appear from nothing or 'always' have been there. Ergo, there must be a creator."

"Hang on," says science, "who created god, then?"

"Well, you see, god is omnipotent, and has always been there."

The fundamental problem with creation theories, whether that's TBBT or Intelligent Design or something else, is that the core concepts are incredibly difficult ideas for human beings to grasp. I think perhaps that's why easy answers gain popularity.

I was brought up in a Christian household - my mother is very religious (her father was a minister..), and I was dragged along to church every Sunday for many years until I asked the Minister a question (aged 11, and in front of a packed church on Easter Sunday...)

"What makes you so sure I actually believe any of this rubbish? Do you really think I believe some higher-power, that nobody can prove even exists, is going to somehow influence my life?? Seriously??"

Our family didn't return the next Sunday and it took my mother several months to find a new church...

I still find the concept of religion amusing, yet a very effective way of controlling people (so credit due to the people centuries ago who started it).

Ro5ey - Member

An Arch Bish or an Imam or the Dalai Iama himelf will says they don't live there lives pefectly in the eyes of their God.... we're all on a road trying to get there.

The pickers and choosers aren't on that road at all- they're like vegetarians who still eat meat, or cyclists that never ride bikes. I have respect for people who push themselves towards the ideal but those that just choose which bits of the ideal to respect and which to ignore aren't following a religion, they're inventing their own.

because some of us don't recognise him/her/they (doesn't matter) when see/feel him

I perceive myself as the greatest cyclist of all time for both road and off road.
The fact some of you may not see this initially and the fact I cannot show it to be true is irrelavnt so lets all just agree it is True
That is your argument basically

I do think with any religion you either accept the whole caboodle or you're not *actually* following that religion.

So if Christianity says 'the Bible is the literal word of God' then you have to accept all of it, including the creation story, Noah's flood, the fire and brimstone, the whole of Revelations etc etc. You can't pick the bits that fit your 21st century rational world view but uphold the bits you like as 'God's truth'.

If you pick and choose then you're just having a chat to some mates of a Sunday morning and calling it 'Fellowship' like it has a deeper meaning for you?

If we don't have a God then how can we be expected to be left feeling vaguely guilty for something, though we're not sure what.

I think the atheists underestimate this emotion, and more importantly; fail to realise the impact on human civilisation if this were withdrawn. We'd all be dead before the week was out! In a hail of blood, bullets, napalm and pitchforks

so why does Islam ban pork, and the hindus have an issue with cows? why don't we all sacrifice Chickens like voodoo? or excarnate the dead like the zoroastrians.

Surely a god would expect followers to follow similar rules?

You could be right. I'm not going to pretend to know how God (if they exist) thinks! It's a pretty fruitless exercise anyway, if such a being exists then trying to fathom their reasoning is more than likley beyond our limited intellectual abilities.

Alternatively, it could just be a cultural thing rather than a religious thing. Kind of like how different Christians worship the same God in different ways.

so why does Islam ban pork, and the hindus have an issue with cows? why don't we all sacrifice Chickens like voodoo? or excarnate the dead like the zoroastrians.

Maybe there's a practical reason. Maybe God got different religions to revere different animals so there would be enough cheeeburgers, fried breakfasts and KFC popcorn chicken to go around

[i]God got different religions to revere different animals so there would be enough cheeeburgers, fried breakfasts and KFC popcorn chicken to go around [/i]

It's the sort of foresight I'd expect, certainly.

If we don't have a God then how can we be expected to be left feeling vaguely guilty for something, though we're not sure what.

I find waking up after drinking too much not only provides this emotion, but also the punishment too...

Actually... thinking about it.... that would make Tesco value Horseburgers an ecumenical matter

7 pages and not a single person has been excommunicated from stw. God does move in mysterious ways.

My conclusion about the banning of Pork, et al. is the religions come from hot countries.... and pork doesn't last very long at all in the heat.

Lots of people ill from eating pork = animal is cursed = religious leaders advise against eating the cursed animal....

Then fast-forward 2000 years, and people still don't eat it....

that would make Tesco value Horseburgers an ecumenical matter

Well, the 'Co is the new house of worship. 'Specially on Sabbath day!

"But from your earlier posts you state quite clearly which bits youre opting out of. Clearly you're not trying particularly hard"

What creationism and Sky wizardary ?? .... yep call me Bannatyne, I'm out on those

Whether you think I'm trying or not... I'm really not that worried, ta vmuch

I reckon if you stopped me eating bacon and drinking beer I might end up a bit fundamental.

Just wondering if any other religions, i.e. not originating in the deep south of America, have any opinions on creationism ?

Budhism, Islam etc have been around for a bit (obviously not more than 6,000 years...impossible), so have their current theologists any thing to say on creationism ?

Oh, and i do realise that this may not be the obvious case as frankly in some parts of the world you still can effectively "STONE THE HERETIC".

Google here i come. The truth is out there. Possibly.

I reckon if you stopped me eating bacon and drinking beer I might end up a bit fundamental.

But that doesn't explain the shoutyness, does it? Beer free fundamentalists of all hues tend to be louder with tones more brusque than people who drink.

Though I suppose there are considerably fewer fights outside kebab houses

So if Christianity says 'the Bible is the literal word of God' then you have to accept all of it, including the creation story, Noah's flood, the fire and brimstone, the whole of Revelations etc etc. You can't pick the bits that fit your 21st century rational world view but uphold

However

if your church/temple/fellowship of your chosen religion says "you can't eat prawns it's against gods will" but you tuck into prawn byriani every friday night then you aren't really religious (of your chosen denomination) are you?

*Mikes got a quote about the bible being 100% the word of god, apart from the stuff that's allegorical

I find waking up after drinking too much not only provides this emotion, but also the punishment too...

No but it is evidence of the value of [s]religion[/s] the placebo effect.

FTFY

If a placebo works, it has value. No point in being a snob about it.

Organised religion is just a political movement about control I think we all know that.

Disagree. Maybe it has been at times, but it's also to do with helping people feel better.

they have not really given evidence they have given, at best,personal testimony and you dont accept it either as proof

We could argue all day about the definition of evidence and its quality.

I've been given evidence lots of times of God. I have just never come across evidence that meets my standards.

"What makes you so sure I actually believe any of this rubbish? Do you really think I believe some higher-power, that nobody can prove even exists, is going to somehow influence my life?? Seriously??"

Thank you, great point well made .... In all of life's great experiences and questions do you still think in the same way as your eleven year old self?

... but you're happy to pay to indoctrinate them with your "belief system" that they shouldn't have a religious belief?

As a nihilist, you offend me.

It's not a belief if you don't have faith in anything, or for that matter do not care.

if such a being exists then trying to fathom their reasoning is more than likley beyond our limited intellectual abilities.

Not wholly dissimilar to the creation of the universe, then.

that would make Tesco value Horseburgers an ecumenical matter

Actual LOL there Binners, loving your work.

What creationism and Sky wizardary ?? .... yep call me Bannatyne, I'm out on those

Sorry, you may have missed my question before, but I'm still not clear on whether you're rejecting 'sky wizardry' the term, or the meaning. Ie, are you rejecting the notion that there's some deity still in control of everything, or just objecting to the use of a pejorative term?

Back to OP - I heard this guy on the Radio this morning and turned it off - he had [b]had[/b] a conversation/vision with God. The only imaginary covnersation you can have that doesn't get you committed. Am generally dissapointed with BBC and R4 in particular when it goes religious.

If a placebo works, it has value. No point in being a snob about it.

But is it necessary to be dishonest about it?

[re: control] Maybe it has been at times, but it's also to do with helping people feel better.

I think that's entirely dependent on the religion.

Just wondering if any other religions, i.e. not originating in the deep south of America, have any opinions on creationism ?

What religions originated in the deep south of America? Native American beliefs? Mormonism was a bit further north. Not sure where Hubbard was from.

Budhism, Islam etc have been around for a bit (obviously not more than 6,000 years...impossible), so have their current theologists any thing to say on creationism ?

I believe that the Islamic creation myth is very similar to the Judeo-Christian one.

If a placebo works, it has value. No point in being a snob about it.

Snob??? Odd choice of word tbh.

The thing about a placebo is by definition it does nothing so cannot "work".
Molly you are a scientist I dont know why you do this.

Not wholly dissimilar to the creation of the universe, then.

Very true, mind you I come from the school-of-thought that believes knowledge is infinite, so what do I know?

So let's just put this in the right thread...

so why does Islam ban pork, and the hindus have an issue with cows?

Most of the animal practices in religion are founded in a prctical aspect- it's quite a good way to think about how religions are developed. Kosher and halal are both fundamentally the same thing- a healthy eating system. Ban unclean animals, place restrictions on how you slaughter them. Put it in a religious context to help it get respected. Over time it gets more ritualised because that's what religion tends to do.

Likewise hindus and cows. Farming cows for meat is a pretty inefficient process, so cows were more valued for dung and milk. (going back far enough, the prohibition only applied to milk-cows).

The other thing about this sort of thing is that people following these practices for their own reasons end up associating with the religion. Irreligious people tend to follow most of the ten commandments, frinstance, at which point religious people sometimes say "But look! You're living in a christian way, you just don't know it! God is everywhere!". So it's a good marketing tool.

but religions change from time to time, normally to edit out the slightly OTT stuff that was in v1.0, which is fair enough I guess. It's made up stuff so they are allowed to omit certain made up details on a whim if they so wish*.

But who determines where the "made up stuff" begins/ends and the "truth" (i.e. shot that can be proved)takes over.

If you can review the "plotline" due to a lack of evidence - Let's say Noah and the Big Flood cert PG, at what point do you start weeding all the other stuff out - like "There is a Big Bearded dude who lives in the sky".