[Closed] Creationist religious nutjob on R4 "One to One 9.30am"

Actually there is a big slice of physics that simply has to ignore gravity to make the equations work

This is quantum physics right?

You see don't you just love science! Something as self evident a gravity is on one scale and yet on another it doesn't work.

My argument is why would you feel the need to invent a God when the universe is more than fascinating, complex and awe inspiring as it is.

The evolution theory arguments are interesting. I've often thought about this and the question I have always had is, can you observe it happening?

Yes, you can observe random mutations happening in the gene pool. And yes, you can observe one creature being better able to survive than another.

What I've never quite been able to understand, is the process that random mutations seem to require continual development, i.e. a small fluctuation at one point in time, gives rise over millions of years, to a very large fluctuation. But it would almost seem as though the initial fluctuation wasn't enough to confer a big enough advantage to make a difference.

Of course over vast periods of time, small fluctuations do become very large fluctuations but this is almost where evolution relies on a degree of faith. We can show these things happening in statistical models, but because of the time gaps involved, we can't observe it directly.

Anyway all thoughts and criticisms of this line of thought are gratefully received.

He was a bright guy - highly paid lawyer - so it's not about intelligence.

Sometimes it is.
People can have a lack of intelligence( and understanding) in some areas,while appearing very intelligent in others.
😉

(with the obvious exceptions of no murder/theft)

Adultery doesn't usually go down well and neither does covetousness and lying about people is also to be frowned upon but I am all up for a bit of fornication.

Creationist Documentary:

If things have evolved, you'd probably expect to see similarities.
Similarly, with intelligent design / creation, you'd probably expect to see the same similarities - why reinvent the wheel every time when certain genes or dna strings can be re-used.

Here's a question. If intelligent design is correct, who / what created the creator?

I didn't think religion was taught in schools to make people religious, I thought it was taught to educate about different cultures, lifestyles etc?

My 6yo goes to a C of E school. They're not taught only about Christianity. They're not taught "Islam* is wrong" etc.

Yes c of e schools dont exist to make you a C of E school- any chance you could post up their mission statement and ethos please - IT will state their aim clearly - you will be arguing the C of E chirch does not promote C of E next

As for the Creation vs Evolution thing, it seems to pretty much boil down to animals/plants showing similar characteristics (genetics, dna).

That is simplistic

If things have evolved, you'd probably expect to see similarities.
Similarly, with intelligent design / creation, you'd probably expect to see the same similarities - why reinvent the wheel every time when certain genes or dna strings can be re-used

Why do we have an appendix ? What kind of designer would give us a useless defunct organ that sole purpose seems to be the ability to kill us without the intervention of medical science - its not very intelligent to do this tbh.
It is such a poor argument I am not even prepared to debate it as its laughably absurd

re the 10 commandments it allows slavery as you should not covet your neighbours slaves - what deity would approve of slavery? not one i would follow

Here's a question. If intelligent design is correct, who / what created the creator?

Or to put it in a scientific way, what happened before the Big Bang?

It's turtles all the way down.

hmmm nope have to disagree

(with the obvious exceptions of no murder/theft)

so which do you think are wrong?

ignoring the religious and no idols crap?

theft? murder? adultery? no days off? respect your family? no perjury? no jealousy?

FWIW, I think the current Theology, Philosophy and Ethics is one of the best academic subjects taught at A level. Interesting, thought provoking and academically challenging. I certainly wouldn't have been reading Kant as a 17-18 year old nor was I able to analyse religious texts with such rigour and thoroughness as students studying the subject now. They have taught me a lot!

GCSE/IGSCE is much more straightforward but is far from a Christian brainwashing exercise since it allows choice of religion and included comparative analysis of the world's major religions and non-religious views on ethics. Perhaps the most interesting part of that is the level of similarity rather than difference between many orthodox religios teachings on many ethical issues.

When people talk of the US and it's specific take on religion, perhaps they should be thinking of more rather than less education to allow people to take a far more critical view of religions texts and teachings. When one considers Genesis 1 as a poem, for example, (the symmetry and rhythm of the creation story is surely not accident) then it is easier to interpret in way that is quite some distance from the literal creationist interpretation that I guess the OP is objecting to.

[i]the C of E chirch does not promote C of E [/i]

well [b]this[/b] is clearly true.

The way I see it, with the "theory" of evolution, many scientists over many decades have sought to attempt to prove it. 1 persons evidence may not be enough but the weight of evidence collected and peer reviewed, year after year with improving technological advances make the "theory" more plausible.

With the theory of creationism, some dude wrote it in a book a few thousand years ago so you must believe it or you'll burn in the fires of hell. If you need proof you will also go to hell, you doubting sinner. Now praise my God or burn in hell.

I know which version I believe and that's with a Catholic education until 18 years old, happily the creationism crap was never taught in my school.

You think its rational to believe in creationsims then and that the evidence supports this

EDIT - [s]That's not what I said at all. Don't put words in my mouth junkyard, it's a very weak and somewhat desperate style of arguing.[/s]. Perhaps that is unfair of me, if what you typed is a question as opposed to a statement.

I don't say that creationism is rational.

I say that sectioning people who believe it to be true is retarded. Just like sectioning my wife who is scared of monsters would be retarded. To section people under the Mental Health Act because they believe in creation would be stupid - stupid because it would be wholly unnecessary and wholly disproportionate. I drew the comparison with the imprisonment of homosexuals to illustrate the degree of stupidity that I consider such a course of action would be.

As illustrated by the quotation of the question contained within the OP, what I wrote was my answer to the question
'[i]Why aren't people with such beliefs sectioned under the mental health act?[/i]' The answer, because to do so would be stupid, that's why.

does Quantum physics need to ignore gravity, or is it just that gravity is so weak at the quantum level that the effects are nearly zero?

there's a difference between needing to ignore gravity for the maths to work, and physicists getting bored of the fg = 0 parts of the equation, so leave them out.

i could very well be wrong.

'Why aren't people with such beliefs sectioned under the mental health act?' [b]The answer, because to do so would be stupid, that's why.[/b]

[i]i could very well be wrong. [/i]

which aren't words you'll hear from someone trying to explain creationism 😉

It's just a theory

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory ]Lots of people confuse 'theory' with 'hypothesis'[/url]

That's not what I said at all. Don't put words in my mouth junkyard, it's a very weak and somewhat desperate style of arguing.

Its a question - granted i miseed the ? - so no need to get that annoyed tbh
EDIT: To be fair to the poster he edited his comments whilst I was typing and not in response to what I wrote

'Why aren't people with such beliefs sectioned under the mental health act?' The answer, because to do so would be stupid, that's why.

point still remains they had to have an exemption for their irrational belief to stop it being called madness

I am not claiming all religious folk are mad but clearly they do believe in something , communicate with it and feels it presence in their life- if this is false we would term them mad

They are lucky as were they to do all this and claim it was the spirit of Odin or Napeoleon or the Mtrix they would be under a far greater risk than chanting in the streets about Jesus.
Its not madness becasue we accept it but its not rational behaviour either.
I dont think they are mad but they would also not score the highest on the JY sanityometer

Or to put it in a scientific way, what happened before the Big Bang?

God lit a firework, obviously 🙄

Of course over vast periods of time, small fluctuations do become very large fluctuations but this is almost where evolution relies on a degree of faith. We can show these things happening in statistical models, but because of the time gaps involved, we can't observe it directly.

Evolution has been observed on a very human time-scale. Bugs that have grown resistant to medications, mosquito's that have adapted to withstand insecticides, and perhaps most famously "the peppered moth".

So did anyone actually listen to the programme then?

muppetWrangler - Member
When I become emperor of the world. Religious teaching will be banned during regular school hours, except during history classes when it's considered a requirement to understanding events of the period studied.

That sounds a lot like the way it happens in much of the civilised world. Certainly it was my experience growing up in Canada. (And that's all that counts, really.)

Can I just say that nobody has challenged the OP on the fact that the programme he was listening to was about exploring the human characteristic of [i]perseverance[/i], and so it was [i]kind of the whole flippin' point[/i] to have on someone with very non-mainstream (extreme) views!

Rusty give over trying to bring reality and something pertinent into this

We have soap boxes not out of our way and let us sound off

PS funny comment 😀

It may well be irrational, I make no comment in that regard. My point was, and remains, that sectioning would be an absurdly disproportionate and unjustifiable response.

Religion is bollox.
All of them.
Ban them all.

ten commandments as a general guide work

Ignoring the ones about compulsory loving and worship of someone you also have to fear, the ones that work all pre-date the ten commandments and exist in all cultures. They're human rules, not Christian/Jewish rules.

Pretty soon after giving the commandment to murder, God told off Moses because they didn't kill enough people.

Allegedly...

Allegedly...

I have the same level of confidence that God told Moses he should have killed more people as I do in the fact he wrote the commandments on stone tables at the top of a mountain...

“pernicious part is that in order to get the best education without having to pay for it, at least one parent has to subscribe to the school's associated church.”

That’ll be me and the Mrs then.

Started going to church a year before choosing which school we wanted our little girl to go to (about 2 years ago now). Wasn’t sure about it all, but thought lets just go to keep our options open, we might end up choosing one of the other local schools when the time comes. It meant giving up the Sunday morning rides but I made the decision to go into the church with a open mind … I saw little point in having to sit there with a preconceived idea of ….not liking it, what a waste of time, I could be out on my bike rather than listening to this mumbo jumbo.

So two years later, that decision to be open minded is right up there with the best choices I’ve ever made. I’ve told you guys before ( and I’ll tell you again in the future )…. I’ve never felt more happy, empowered, relaxed and free since I’ve been going to church. Let alone met loads of new like minded friends within a very welcoming wider church/school community….

To top it off, my little girl has made a fantastic start in the voluntary funded church school. It was open yesterday, some of you will be glad to hear, the kids had a snowball fight with the Head Master.

On the creationist point… we’ll yeah that’s one I can’t get my head around… and as for gravity/QM etc, best you speak to the pie n liquor… he’s got a doctorate in theoretical physics

considering the consistency of the rules set out in the bible, the wrath and vengeance applied if they're not followed and all this being done under the pretence of 'i love you guys, i'm doing it cos i love you', can we please just accept that if god exists, god is a domestic abuser and most probably female?

I reckon trying to undersand why people believe in creationism is the key.

Might help us to halt the rise in the number of people who believe in it, which is the thing that scares the gravy out of me.

Rationalism is on the decline. Personally I think we're not encouraging children to explore the wonders of science and the natural world in the same way we used to. Kids don't connect with nature in the same way.
That gap in development is sadly easily filled by the teachings of religious charlatans.
We need to finda way to encourage kids to question more, whilst retaining the respect of those trying to promote rational thinking.

I've noticed that these threads are drawing less and less supporters of superstition to the argument than formerly. The few who do turn up, seem to quickly fade away.

Evolving, in fact. 😉

I’ve never felt more happy, empowered, relaxed and free since I’ve been going to church.

Bully for you. Not evidence of god, however.

Or maybe, as their numbers rise, they feel more secure in their beliefs?

Sad, isn't it?

and...

To top it off, my little girl has made a fantastic start in the voluntary funded church school.

"The indoctrination of children into religious dogma is a form of child abuse."

Comfortable with that?

The trouble with religion is that we are all going to some form of hell or other. Several religions condemn either believers of other religions, or the non religious to eternal damnation there, so that's where we'll all end up!

I’ve never felt more happy, empowered, relaxed and free since I’ve been going to church. Let alone met loads of new like minded friends within a very welcoming wider church/school community….

There's a lot of be said for taking part in social activities and groups. Humans are a tribal animal, so we feel better when in groups. Could it be the group that's making you happy, or is it the spirit of an all powerful being?

(For context: my wife is a Christian and goes to church. She's also a chaplain in a CofE primary school. I'm still not entirely sure what she [i]actually[/i] believes.)

Adultery doesn't usually go down well and neither does covetousness

lying about people

Perhaps Woppit, out of intrigue, they go and listen to the program itself*, understand its purpose, consider the mental state of the guy in question and realise that (without agreeing with the subject) that the OP's comments verge on the ridiculous.

*admittedly only got to 8mins through before I got a little tired of both the point, "what makes people persevere?" and the limited arguments that the guy in question was coming up with. Wrong in interpretation, most probably, nut case or deserving sanctioning under mental health acts, let's not get silly.

I could not be in more violent disagreement with creationists if I tried, but I wholeheartedly agree with Kenny Senior.

I'm with GeeTee on this^^

But not this...

No the more pernicious part is that in order to get the best education without having to pay for it, at least one parent has to subscribe to the school's associated church.

Because we didn't and don't but all our children go there - sometimes to my despair...

I'm with Mike - it's possibly as much about the sense of finding a 'tribe' to fit in with and belong too.

Rationalism is on the decline. Personally I think we're not encouraging children to explore the wonders of science and the natural world in the same way we used to. Kids don't connect with nature in the same way.

Re: dinosaurs dying out, they're still around, they just evolved into birds...

The smaller ones, yes.

Have the dinosaurs died out? When did that happen?

theft? murder?

adultery?

no days off?

respect your family?

no perjury?

no jealousy?