[Closed] Creationist religious nutjob on R4 "One to One 9.30am"

mefty - Member

In the the amount many of you have spent and no doubt will spend posting on the subject you could have read a lot of books which is what I intend to do now, albeit it is a detective novel - not Father Brown alas.

Sherlock Holmes?
[i]How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?[/i]

I understand the word just fine, thanks. What I don't understand is the point in swanning in going 'I know more than you, and I'm not telling you, read some books.' Doesn't really advance the discussion, y'know?

Neither have the previous 20 pages, what have I done wrong?

I could tell you how the conversation has advanced (it has, quite a lot) but it'd be immensely time consuming and probably futile. You could read it for yourself and find out though, if you like.

What have you learnt then?

I learnt that there are a lot of large misconceptions about theology, but sadly not what they are.

In the previous 19 pages?

You could read them and find out?

That is a statement, not a question, I learnt nothing but you obviously find these threads enlightening because you spend alot of time on them. Thus I am intrigued to know what you have learnt.

That is a statement, not a question

It's a statement with a question mark at the end, inviting a response rather than ending the conversation. Are you seriously so out of ideas that you're having to resort to picking apart my grammar?

Regardless. In answer to your question, I find these threads interesting and entertaining. They're not [i]always[/i] "enlightening" for me personally, though I have learnt a good deal about other religions and the viewpoints of its followers along the way. Ro5ey, for example, has explained what benefits he believes church membership has brought to his community.

Others have said they've had their opinions changed in previous discussions too, though I don't have details to hand unfortunately. Offhand I remember one guy revised his religion-inspired anti-homosexuality views after a healthy discussion on same-sex marriage somehow devaluing his own. Sorry, I didn't know there was going to be a test or I'd have made notes.

"Learning things" isn't necessarily the raison d'etre of these kinds of debates, I don't think, though it's sometimes a happy by-product. We're not all sitting here seeking The Truth like some sort of possessed Spod Mulder. Indeed, rightly or wrongly I think most of us have already found it.

All that said, I'm still interested to hear from you what you believe we've got wrong.

Cougar - Member
igrf > I may be misinterpreting you, but you seem to have confused "study" with "promote". We learnt about the third reich in History at school, but no-one came along and tried to get us to sign up the East Lancashire Hitler Youth.

I don't see any harm in studying Buddhism, or Islam, at an academic level; ie, R.E. It's quite possible to teach R.E. in a secular manner, just swap "Jesus did this" with "Christians believe that Jesus did this" and we have a winner. The bonus of that is that multi-faith R.E. is a breeze, you can cover all the major religions then. Hell, and if any of the kids fancy buying into it, they can make an informed choice rather than default to the one they've been given by their parents.

It won't take them long to spot creationism for what it is, or the flaws in all religions, but if they have half an enquiring mind, they'll spot there is something going on and with a bit of further digging draw a conclusion by which to guide themselves.

What galls me, in our readiness to debunk Judaeo Christianity, the strong arm methods of other less tolerant or more 'noisy' groups dominate the agenda. Just plain Atheism isn't the answer, and as I ventured further back in irony initially, a healthy dose of Agnosticism coupled to search for the truth can produce some intriguing answers some backed scientifically.

As to wether there is a supreme being, or force, in my mind the jury is still out, that there is a force for good and evil is self evident, that we come back here time and again also seems highly likely and Karma? Karma has always been a cool rule by which to conduct oneself.

Is my view.

Damn, too late, now pointless and unfunny.

Never stopped anyone before (-:

...that there is a force for good and evil is self evident,

Not to me. Peer reviewed double blind tested court admissible evidence?

Have you been watching Star Wars recently?

Others have said they've had their opinions changed in previous discussions too

*Raises hand*

that there is a force for good and evil is self evident

Is it?

...but if they have half an enquiring mind, they'll spot there is something going on...

Half an inquiring mind eh?

Not like those thickos Darwin, or DaVinci, or Freud then?

Not like those thickos Darwin, or DaVinci, or Freud then?

I'm starting to wonder if there's a genetic component to religious belief. I know some very clever religious people and there are some stupid atheists, so there's obviously more to it than thinking it through.

It doesn't seem that religious people believe there's a god because they've thought through all the arguments, or that atheists don't believe in a god because of their thinking about it.

As to wether there is a supreme being, or force, in my mind the jury is still out,

that there is a force for good and evil is self evident

Karma has always been a cool rule by which to conduct oneself.

TuckerUK - Member
...that there is a force for good and evil is self evident,
Not to me. Peer reviewed double blind tested court admissible evidence?

Well let me rephrase it as a force for positive and an opposing negative, it's what makes the world turn rather than blathering on about proving it by having a good bash at Satanic, Voodoo, Black Witchcraft, or other 'negative belief values' of which there is a lot of largely unscientific, but nonetheless interesting anecdotal and some scientific evidence to corroborate.

Did I mention spiritualism yet? 😕

Junkyard - Member
As to wether there is a supreme being, or force, in my mind the jury is still out,

And Unicorns - I mean I have no proof of those but I can make up some outlandish stories riddled with innacuracies if it helps?
that there is a force for good and evil is self evident

Well I missed it so its not self evident - what sort of meter do I need to measure it or do I just take pictures?
Karma has always been a cool rule by which to conduct oneself.

Yes it is, but its no more real than be excellent to each other

Is typical of the sort of closed minded view that is irritating, and coming from one who allegedly is paid to open the minds of the young, I do hope not to R.I.

igrf - Member

that there is a force for good and evil is self evident

It really isn't. Not sure where you'd even start if you wanted to argue that it is, tbh.

...some scientific evidence to corroborate.

Love to see that then, please.

Northwind - Member
igrf - Member
that there is a force for good and evil is self evident

It really isn't. Not sure where you'd even start if you wanted to argue that it is, tbh.

Right so mankind and evil bastards murdering each other wholesale in the name of whatever is not caused by some evil force then?

And Opposing that insert appropriate Mother Theresa style operation is not motivated by a force for good?

Every fibre of you, your body, cells, requires the action of positive and negatively opposed forces.

Call it electricity if you wish.

All actions are generally opposed by a reaction.

If there is good, then generally there is evil, one must assume in equal measure.

Self evident

As I said.

Is typical of the sort of closed minded view that is irritating, and coming from one who allegedly is paid to open the minds of the young,

Makes lesson plan about unicorns

Not all teachers work with the young either but you are good at jumping to erroneous conclusionswithout evidence 🙄

The problem with not having a closed mind is self evidently that you let in any old guff and cant differentiate between fact and fiction.
EDIT:

Right so mankind and evil bastards murdering each other wholesale in the name of whatever is not caused by some evil force then?

I rest my case on what happens when you have an open mind and where you end up

Is typical of the sort of closed minded view that is irritating, and coming from one who allegedly is paid to open the minds of the young, I do hope not to R.I.

Why not dispense with the argumentum ad hominem, it's an old reuse, and just attack the actual meat of the discussion?

[img] [/img]

That is among the least self evident things I've ever seen.

I know some very clever religious people and there are some stupid atheists, so there's obviously more to it than thinking it through.

It's about intelligence AND education. I have never ever met an intelligent AND educated believer. I'm not saying they don't exist, just that I have never met one. I have met intelligent AND educated leaders in religions though.

OK, I get it, igrf, you're trolling right? Got me going there for a minute. Good one.

Yin & Yang is Chinese, Taoism, light dark, male female, we in the west subscribe good and evil to the symbol, but the point is both sides make life go round.

Self Evident if one exists then there is the other.

Of course he's trolling, that or genuinely scary.

Self Evident if one exists then there is the other.

I don't think you've fully understood the concepts of science: critical thinking, evidence, facts, etc. There is no such thing (other than in language) of self evidence.

I have never ever met an intelligent AND educated believer.

I have, loads.

But then you're at risk of your own circular logic. If you believe that believing is stupid then you'll automatically put any believers in the stupid category.

Right so mankind and evil bastards murdering each other wholesale in the name of whatever is not caused by some evil force then?

Well let's see. Would it be ok to fight against someone who was attacking you? If they wanted to kill you and would not stop until they did, would it be ok if you killed them in self defence?

If you live next door to a tribe of people who always wanted to kill you, and kept coming over and trying, would it be ok to pre-emptively attack them to stop them attacking you?

What if they had the exact same opinion of you as you did of them and you were actually doing the exact same thing?

Both sides think they are doing a good thing, and protecting themselves. No external evil force required, just self preservation and limited resources.

TuckerUK - Member
OK, I get it, igrf, you're trolling right? Got me going there for a minute. Good one.

No, actually I'm not, this is the longest running debate that i've ever participated within on here without it being closed or screwed by the usual big hitter arguments, i guess that suicide thread got me thinking a bit to be honest, so all I'm trying to suggest is that through agnosticism comes the quest for the answer and there is plenty out there if you look for it, as I did once upon a time in my youth. It is far far easier nowadays with the benefit of the interenet for young people to seek out the teachings of others, so my blatherings here were just to put the view that there most definitely (imho) something more out there and by piecing it together, combined with my particular personal experiences (Spiritualist Grand parents) it is possible to form a cohesive belief by which to live through this bollox nd come out the other end sane (ish) I'm not asking you to believe any of it, I'm just suggesting you look a little further with an open mind.

this is the longest running debate that i've ever participated within on here without it being closed or screwed by the usual big hitter arguments

How many accounts have you had banned whilst others have ruined threads you have taken part in?

I've looked into it very deeply, with an open mind.

I've concluded that there is nothing out there more than the collective emotions of billions of people. And that is an amazing and mostly wonderful thing.

molgrips - Member
No external evil force required, just self preservation and limited resources.

Hmm time to invoke Godwin i guess.

You did know Hitler really was an occultist?

Hitler was bonkers, not a very good example of anything imo.

I know if St least on physics PhD who is a believer.

Thing is with Religion/Higher Power etc is that it seems to be a really important Human Concept. Don't 90% of Earths population have some sort of religious belief? dunno the stats. It's all some delusional mental illness then? Imagine a world without all that fantastic Art and Music and Great Buildings and Literature all inspired or influenced by Religion in one way or another. Our cultural history would be pretty empty. I'm not Religious or even "spiritual" btw. Just saying that it produces good stuff too 🙂

I would argue that there is no such thing as "good" or "evil" beyond the confines of our own heads. We are evolved to generally do more of what we perceive as "good", but some people will of course buck the trend and do more stuff that we perceive as "bad" or evil. In reality there are just events, actions, consequences etc, but the evaluation of those events in a moralistic way is a purely human construct.

Imagine a world without all that fantastic Art and Music and Great Buildings and Literature all inspired or influenced by Religion in one way or another. Our cultural history would be pretty empty.

Nah, they'd have found plenty of other things to draw.

As for 'evil', I don't think it really exists. People are good, misguided, stupid, inconsiderate, selfish or amoral. I don't think any of those things is actually evil.

the evaluation of those events in a moralistic way is a purely human construct

Yep, and as such it's relative.

Nah, they'd have found plenty of other things to draw.

And fight about

Oh, we're getting deep now, the Port or Brandy must be kicking in.

nah Molgrips some of the best buildings and sculpture ever have been built and funded by religion. Some of those great artists and craftsmen would just be messing about with charcoal for pennies otherwise! Michaelangelo would've been sat about doing portraits in the square rather than jazzing up the Sistine chapel with the best Art materials at the time. Back in the day the big jobs were paid for by the church or Royalty. The only reason some of the good stuff still exists is cos it was tucked away in Gods House for Centuries 😉

some of the best buildings and sculpture ever have been built and funded by religion.

That's true. But I do not [b]believe [/b]that if it wasn't for religion we'd have sat about picking our noses instead of building nice stuff. The desire to create is innate, and the desire to see nice things is also innate.

[b]Maybe [/b]if the church hadn't been spuffing money up the wall trying to impress other rich people they could have been helping the poor or something.

You can't say for sure what would have happened. And before you pick holes in me, look at the words in bold.