A bunch of committed, intelligent Christians have looked at scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and decided that same sex marriage should be allowed.
A different bunch of committed, intelligent Christians have looked at scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and decided that same sex marriage should not be allowed.
If I imagine for a second
There you go.
is that banned list going to get much longer cougar? 🙂 Did they specifically ban every pregnancy free sex act or did they just say "anything that doesn't involve a wee wee going into a foo foo until you get a tingling in your tummy is naughty"?
woppit - is it specifically a grudge you have against imagination then..?
This world looks pretty cold and cruel and remorseless through the calculating eyes of science and fact, why not take the edge off it with a pinch of imagination..?
is that banned list going to get much longer cougar?
(-: Sorry, I'm the world's worst for hitting [Send] and then post-editing.
This world looks pretty cold and cruel and remorseless through the calculating eyes of science and fact,
Doesn't look that way to me... perhaps it's just your imagination? 😉
Edit: Actually - I do know what you mean. Nature is red in tooth and claw, there's no meaning to it etc etc etc...
The Weald still looks beautiful from the top of Holmbury Hill, though. Without adding anything imaginary.
If I imagine for a second that it was all put there for us, for me, by someone or something who loves and cares for me very much, it instantly all looks a lot friendlier and safer and more comforting.
That someone or something who loves and cares for you very much also made [url= https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=eye+parasite&hl=en&tbo=u&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=JVIBUc7UIPGr0AX03YCwCQ&ved=0CDIQsAQ&biw=1152&bih=773 ]eye parasites[/url]. How much friendlier, safer and more comforting does that view look now?
an eye for an eye and all that
This world looks pretty cold and cruel and remorseless through the calculating eyes of science and fact
"I have a friend who’s an artist and has sometimes taken a view which I don’t agree with very well. He’ll hold up a flower and say “look how beautiful it is,” and I’ll agree. Then he says “I as an artist can see how beautiful this is but you as a scientist take this all apart and it becomes a dull thing,” and I think that he’s kind of nutty. First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people and to me too, I believe…"
"I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. At the same time, I see much more about the flower than he sees. I could imagine the cells in there, the complicated actions inside, which also have a beauty. I mean it’s not just beauty at this dimension, at one centimeter; there’s also beauty at smaller dimensions, the inner structure, also the processes. The fact that the colors in the flower evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; it means that insects can see the color. It adds a question: does this aesthetic sense also exist in the lower forms? Why is it aesthetic? All kinds of interesting questions which the science knowledge only adds to the excitement, the mystery and the awe of a flower. It only adds. I don’t understand how it subtracts."
why not take the edge off it with a pinch of imagination..?
No-one (well, apart from Woppit who seems to be determined to be controversial) is saying that imagination is bad. It's when imagination then gets trotted out as fact and pressure groups try to get it taught in science lessons that we have a problem.
I take your earlier point and sure, I can understand why religion is attractive. Aside from the fact that it's attractive by design(*) otherwise no-one would follow it(**), there are a lot of appealing concepts to religion. Easy to understand answers to complex questions, the promise of an afterlife to ease the fear of mortality and the grief of loss; the idea that some other force is at work to make things better; and so on. Modern religions are so very convenient like that.
[i](* - there's a joke about Intelligent Design here somewhere, I'm sure)
(** - two ways to coerce people, either bribe them or threaten them; many religions have used both to a greater or lesser extent)[/i]
well, apart from Woppit who seems to be determined to be controversial) is saying that imagination is bad.
Don't think I actually said that, old boy.
It's when imagination then gets trotted out as fact and pressure groups try to get it taught in science lessons that we have a problem.
Why's that then?
I imagined that you did!
If no-one told you about god, it's highly unlikely that you'd spontaneously come up with a religion on your own
How did religions come about in the first place then?
Maybe they really were talking to God?
Oh, stoppit. You're worse than me. 😉
Don't think I actually said that, old boy.
Cheerfully withdrawn. Apologies.
Why's that then?
Er, eh? Because it's not science?
Sorry, I'm utterly stunned by that question and I'm a bit speechless (quiet at the back). You can't [i]really[/i] be that hard of thinking surely, I must've misunderstood your question? What do you mean?
You know what's especially weird: transubstantiation*.
[url= http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/communion.pn g" target="_blank">http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/communion.pn g"/> [/img][/url]
*Just Catholics, not all Christians, etc.
it's highly unlikely that you'd spontaneously come up with a religion on your own
...
How did religions come about in the first place then?
That's not quite what I meant, poor wording on my part. What I meant to say was, "it's highly unlikely that you'd spontaneously come up with [b]an already established [/b]religion on your own." Eg, an tribe on an island isolated from the rest of the world isn't likely to come up with a belief system that looks exactly like Christianity or Islam.
Which, sort of dispels the idea of us all being god's children; if we were, we'd have come up with mostly similar religions in isolation. That isn't the case; religion (historically) has spread largely by force and invasion.
it's highly unlikely that you'd spontaneously come up with an already established religion on your own
If all human knowledge was wiped out tomorrow another civilisation, somewhere in the universe, will come up with the same scientific laws but, if they have them, completely different religions.
Precisely, yes.
If all human knowledge was wiped out tomorrow another civilisation, somewhere in the universe, will come up with the same scientific laws but, if they have them, completely different religions.
Ahhh Penn Jillette!!
>It's when imagination then gets trotted out as fact and pressure groups try to get it taught in science lessons that we have a problem.>Why's that then?
Er, eh? Because it's not science?
Sorry, I'm utterly stunned by that question and I'm a bit speechless (quiet at the back). You can't really be that hard of thinking surely, I must've misunderstood your question? What do you mean?
Apologies, it's Sugar Thursdays where I spurt things out thinking everyone is able to read my mind and know exactly what angle I'm approaching discussions from...
I've forgotten my point, really. It's basically semantics about your use of the word 'imagination' and your use of the concrete morality of 'right and wrong' in a world where everything is relative.
I'll shuffle away now 🙂
Oh, with reference to the 'creating a religion from nothing and having it different to our established religions' - all you have to do is take one culture's 'bad thing' and call it 'Satan' for instant conversion.
[url= http://ffrf.org/publications/freethought-today/item/13492-the-pirahae-people-who-define-happiness-without-god ]Unless you're The Pirahã, the happiest group of people in the world (measured by time spent smiling) who reject God that is[/url].
molgrips - Member
What's wrong with inventing your own religion? All varieties of Christianity were invented at some point.
This.
Pretty much what you have to do if you want to get through this thing sane..
You need something, some logic, to have worked out as close as you can from all the mumbo jumbo what you think it is all about and what happens after, I seriously think everyone deep down needs to have some form of belief even Atheists do believe this is it and it's game over, very brave of them, or very bravado depending on your own viewpoint I guess.
Ahhh Penn Jillette!!
I heard Ricky Gervais say it first (in [url=
interview[/url], I think), but he may have got it from Penn Jillette.
I've forgotten my point, really. It's basically semantics about your use of the word 'imagination' and your use of the concrete morality of 'right and wrong' in a world where everything is relative.
In which case, I'm glad that a) you can't remember because that looks pedantic and complicated, and b) you're not completely hatstand.
(Just, y'know, a little bit.)
even Atheists do believe this is it and it's game over
Again, atheists all disbelieve the existence of any god. That is all. Being an atheist saying nothing about a person's belief about what happens after death.
he may have got it from Penn Jillette.
Google would suggest it's from "God, no!" by PJ. The quote is,
If every trace of any single religion were wiped out again and nothing was passed on, it would never be created exactly that way again. There might be some other nonsense in its place, but not that exact nonsense. If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it out again. Without hype, Lot's salt-heap ho would never be thought of again. Without science, the Earth still goes around the sun and someday someone will find a way to prove that again.
Which is what I was trying to say, only written by someone more intelligent.
(Just, y'know, a little bit.)
Very hat stand. 🙂
See my edit link above, makes for good reading (if you haven't read it already, that is.)
Bonus: It's not a cult I want you to join.
Which is what I was trying to say, only written by someone [s]more intelligent[/s] with time and an editor.
Eg, an tribe on an island isolated from the rest of the world isn't likely to come up with a belief system that looks exactly like Christianity or Islam
True, although pagan style beliefs are quite comparable.
Without hype, Lot's salt-heap ho would never be thought of again.
We're back to the bible again. Lot only appears in the bible. If you consider the bible as fables, parables and instructive stories* as well as some mis-told history, then it doesn't matter one bit. God and Jesus could still be there, even if Lot didn't exist.
As many Christians do
miketually - Member
even Atheists do believe this is it and it's game over
Again, atheists all disbelieve the existence of any god. That is all. Being an atheist saying nothing about a person's belief about what happens after death.
Surely the two are linked God's caveat being do what I say or you'll be in trouble when we meet, Atheist retorting that we can do what we like because there is no God therefore no-one to get us in the afterlife, in fact there is no afterlife. Could be wrong here but assumed the two went hand in hand.
So what do atheists think happens when it's game over in this earthly plane?
Atheist retorting that we can do what we like because there is no God
I don't know if this is a sly reference to it being impossible to have morality without god, but if it is then you're wrong and not getting away with it. (-:
So what do atheists think happens when it's game over in this earthly plane?
Again, you're confusing atheism with a belief system. There is no atheist bible to tell us all what to think. Atheists believe whatever they want to believe; I expect most don't believe in an afterlife or take the more agnostic "who knows" stance, but some probably believe we come back as lower life forms like cows or beetles or youtube commenters.
So what do atheists think happens when it's game over in this earthly plane?
Did you do biology in school? 🙄
Atheist retorting that [s]we can do what we like because[/s] there is no God therefore no-one to get us in the afterlife
FIFY or are you saying Atheist have no morality?
(I don't normally do this but,)
Sixundred and sixty six!
So what do atheists think happens when it's game over in this earthly plane?
I doubt anyone has asked them all. There is no atheist mantra (other than make-believe isn't real).
Did you do biology in school?
Biology classes in my school didn't cover the Immortal Soul, I dunno where you went to school!
If every trace of any single religion were wiped out again and nothing was passed on, it would never be created exactly that way again. There might be some other nonsense in its place, but not that exact nonsense. If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it out again. Without hype, Lot's salt-heap ho would never be thought of again. Without science, the Earth still goes around the sun and someday someone will find a way to prove that again.
Yeah, but we'd have no history either, the story of Henry VIII and his six wives would never be retold, doesn't mean its not true. I'm not saying that PJ is wrong, but he's chosen a poor example, i think
[s]Atheist[/s] Christian retorting that we can do what we like because [s]there is no God therefore no-one to get us in the afterlife, in fact there is no afterlife[/s] God will forgive us
Don't forget to add that bit if we're doing religion&Morality™
Surely the two are linked God's caveat being do what I say or you'll be in trouble when we meet, Atheist retorting that we can do what we like because there is no God therefore no-one to get us in the afterlife, in fact there is no afterlife. Could be wrong here but assumed the two went hand in hand.
Buddhists are atheists but believe in something that happens after death.
Biology classes in my school didn't cover the Immortal Soul, I dunno where you went to school!
Who said anything about an immortal soul?
It's when imagination then gets trotted out as fact and pressure groups try to get it taught in science lessons that we have a problem.
Not a problem if there are folks trying, folks try all kinds of stuff, there's a lot of variety. The problem would be if they were successful.
Who said anything about an immortal soul?
Indeed, Cotic's lifetime warrenty only covers the Soda...
folks try all kinds of stuff, there's a lot of variety
You have heard of "opportunity cost" ?
Not a problem if there are folks trying, folks try all kinds of stuff, there's a lot of variety. The problem would be if they were successful.
"Attempted murder".
